T-Bone

Well, that makes two of us – zero experiencing with partner dancing - - but there have been some rough experiences in partner discussions maybe we're mismatched... "every time we start talking one of us falls asleep"

Mike, I don't want to lead you on - so I'm telling you upfront right now I can't dance

Mike: We were taught that conscience was merely the sum total of what we were taught was right and I followed that notion throughout. Well guess what, Mike – we were taught wrong – by an unabashed plagiarist, who also happened to be a pathological liar, a money grubbing weasel, incompetent teacher/pastor/CEO, chain-smoking, Drambuie guzzling sexual predator…yeah let’s have someone who behaved like he had a seared conscience teach us about conscience. And while we’re at it let’s have Jeffrey Dahmer teach us about philanthropy. Besides your “thesis” going against the sciences – I had said your “thesis” also goes against what the Bible teaches...everyone has a conscience – and that there seems to be "stuff in there" even from the beginning of humankind that God will use as a basis to judge through Jesus Christ: 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2 Humankind had a conscience even before the fall – why else would they have felt shame and want to hide from God in Genesis 3 ? there was no one before them to teach them what’s right or wrong! You have to ask yourself – why did they feel bad? maybe take a break from reinventing the wheel and refer to a thread that got into the conscience...maybe give it a look: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/11011-twis-sedative-to-the-conscience/ TWI’s sedative to the conscience

Mike, like I said maybe back off trying to redefine stuff – especially when your descriptions do not accurately represent what you’re taking about. It makes it look like you’re trying to come up with something new and different to camouflage that it was someone else’s idea…hmmmmm where have I seen that before?

are you suffering from "learned helplessness" or laziness?

I started a thread in 2006 that gets into the conscience – ever since I left TWI, I felt wierwille ideology did a tremendous disservice to TWI-followers by encouraging a “renewed mind recklessness” whatever the hell that was supposed to mean and in wierwille’s minimizing of sin, sinful behavior and generally ignoring gut feelings when you sensed something was wrong…there’s some interesting books I noted on that thread – folks might enjoy checking out - anyway here’s the thread: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/11011-twis-sedative-to-the-conscience/ TWI’s sedative to the conscience August 6th 2006 11:14 AM Another interesting book that gets into the twofold aspect of our nature / nuture: https://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-Steven-Pinker-audiobook/dp/B002ZJ1V8E/ The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker

Ok don’t laugh - few years ago I worked with a guy who is a huge metal fan - he got me to appreciate metal… he made me CDs with topics like metal 101, different types of metal - death, speed, and interesting tangents - jazz is like metal metal is like jazz …I really loved this guy - we often would get into talking Bible stuff too - he’s a Mormon…at the time he did some work for War Beast - doing artwork , marketing T-shirts and their CDs. He dug my humor too - I used to refer to his band as Battle Varmints - he thought it was funny. Went to The Rail one night to visit with him and listen to his band and other bands . There was a mosh pit - yowzer! He warned me to bring earplugs- which I did. Oh God ! As if the bass amp wasn’t loud enough - they had all instruments mic’d thru the PA too besides their amps …I could feel the percussive force of the bass on my chest. Frightening! “You old chest thumper, you!” Anyway …since then I bought Battle Varmints’ CD, and some classics Black Sabbath, Metallica, Anthrax, Creed, Megadeath and newer stuff too - Skrillex, Bassnectar, Monster Magnet etc. they’re on a playlist I titled “you’re getting on my last nerve” which has an icon I made from a lady in a gas mask at Burning Man… alright you caught me - I’ve gone over to the dark side.

That seems like a false dilemma – there’s many factors that might be in play – at the subconscious level, mental and emotional baggage, mental illness, psychology / physical trauma, PTSD to name just a few

You’ve lost me in your vagaries and sloppy attempts at redefining terms. Maybe back up and punt using some sort of standards – I’m familiar with your “standards” in “other matters” and I don’t think you qualified to reinvent the wheel - here or on the aforementioned “other matters”. Sorry for being blunt - but I don't want to waste time in sorting out gobbledygook. It sounds like what you’re talking about is cause and effect; please review articles in links below – I got to link # 1 by going to link # 2…link # 3 I threw in for some heady philosophy - and in light of what I said about some of your thesis being antithetical to PFAL and Christian theology - think over the issues discussed in link 3 and take note of the conclusion and you'll see what I mean...anyway here's the links 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality Wikipedia: cause and effect 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism Wikipedia: determinism 3. https://philosophynow.org/issues/141/Determinism_versus_Determinism Philosophy Now org: Determinism versus Determinism ~ ~ ~ ~ Is it possible you’re a frustrated teacher? What I’m getting at is that it’s occurred to me more than once that part of what drives you to push the “come back to PFAL” thing is that you might like the attention (which is okay) and also maybe you had some responsibility (Whether in TWI - Twig, Branch coordinator – whatever – and/or you taught in some capacity in the secular world) and you liked people coming to you for answers (which is also okay – and hopefully it’s more for the good feeling you get from providing someone with something that’s actually useful…and not so much for inflating your ego or validating the idea that you think you’re always right)

Death metal is a dying art This actually is pretty good - just kinda weird seeing the way they look and knowing it’s way productions - throw in the “satanic” sounding voice with a touch of Bible ideas - and it’s like playing a PFAL tape backwards…need to find the part where you hear “ I buried victor paul”.

90. The teacher discourages the use of cognitive skills Here’s an excerpt from page 103 of The New Dynamic Church, chapter 9, Speaking in Tongues,: No one can go any further than he himself has been taught, and a teacher can teach no more than he knows. If you want to help someone else, first you yourself must be helped; otherwise, the blind lead the blind and they both stumble around. One of the darkest spots of understanding in the Bible concerns the Holy Spirit, both the Giver and the gift of holy spirit. Let us no longer be blind. Let us study God’s Word to understand His will. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ This point might get into a few subsets – some ideas in this chapter as well as the topic of speaking in tongues have been milling about in my head for years ( here's visual aid of inside my head - - ) …won’t get into it much on this post…just thought I’d lead with this since, for me, since the most tantalizing aspect of PFAL is the bait that wierwille led me to think he would cure my “spiritual blindness” if you will. One of the most insidious ideas that runs through PFAL is stated in plain sight – in the first sentence of the above excerpt. On a Sunday Night Teaching Tape titled Carnal Versus Spiritual wierwille makes some fascinating goofball statements without any pertinent Scripture references to support his claims. Here are some of his wildly exciting claims: 1. Psychologists talk about the subconscious…they’ve never been there…it’s actually the mind of the spirit. 2. All learning comes by way of the five senses…When you’re born again you now have another avenue of learning…In Galatians 1, Paul said he did not receive the gospel from any man, nor was he taught it – he received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ… 3. It’s Christ behind every cell of your being…even behind your brain cells. 4. All the great discoveries and inventions come by way of the spirit – revelation. 5. It’s not because you have such a high IQ – it’s because God has such a high IQ. 6. Countries without Christ do not invent. Apparently wierwille had a very low opinion of a human being’s cognitive skills…If I had to guess why he felt that way – I’d say it’s probably because he was lazy and incompetent – I mean, why else would he plagiarize so much? To be honest, I have a very low opinion of wierwille’s cognitive skills...Also, I’d like to point out in point # 2 and point # 4, wierwille equates the revelation of the gospel – a metaphysical truth, with discoveries and inventions – scientific truth. Since I left TWI, I have grown to appreciate the freedom I have in relating faith to reason. Having a rigid mindset is far worse than being wrong. So many things are unknown – and if I don’t think I have the last word – a definitive or conclusive answer on something – then I leave that particular belief in a constant state of flux. What is a state of flux? It means that I leave a certain idea in “…a state of uncertainty about what should be done (usually following some important event) preceding the establishment of a new direction of action.” From Quora - which brings me mention the acid. For me the important event was realizing that a lot of the theology and practical advice that TWI promoted was bogus – and had very little viable information. For me 12 years of TWI-lifestyle become so repetitive and frustrating. Some may feel that describes where they’re at right now – then maybe they should take the acid test. Come to terms with reality – be honest with yourself - reengage your cognitive skills and emotional intelligence. ~ ~ ~ ~ I anticipate covering speaking in tongues and this chapter 9 & possibly 10 in several follow up posts. In the meantime - all Grease Spotters please feel free to contribute anything appropriate to this thread topic Why PFAL sucks – and of course you’re also welcome to key off this post and my follow-up posts on speaking in tongues.

But seriously getting back to this post: To me you’re talking in circles. You say you’re only talking about the natural man’s mind/free will - and not using PFAL criteria. So what reference points are YOU using to determine your postulates? also, you seem to be drawing a hard line of distinction regarding free will in the natural man and free will in a Christian - why? What difference does it make regarding free will in either person? What are the physical / detectable / measurable evidence or signs that you think should motivate “laboratory scientists “ to investigate further? If your goal is to offer PRACTICAL tips on free will for “non-scientists” - then can you describe what your target looks like? What would be the benefit to the natural man’s mind? What information do you have that will inform / enhance the natural man’s mind / free will in a hands-on situation? If your aim is to provide a viable solution to a problem- then what specific successes have you achieved so far in your experiments?

Thats when vp says “if you’re not familiar with how this ends - then let me hump a few bars “

My statement interprets itself I see no reason why I should /should not/ should / should not accept a possible reason that you think No big mystery why asleep...didn't you figure out the mystery why I am sleep-posting...or are you dreaming of reading this post before I had a chance to decide if a free will is something an attorney would never draw up...at least not on Etch A Sketch

This stuff definitely sounds strange to me…maybe cuz it IS strange…or it could be I’m not smoking what you’re smoking…uhm…what are you smoking? oh that reminds me...we used to play this tune in one of the bands I was in...have another hit " I would like to pull out some practical tips on free will for non-scientists." YIKES ! run for your lives!

You’re not making any sense! Are you stoned or tripping right now as you write this stuff? Heard of people going off the deep end…I think you sailed off the edge

reposting part of what I shared on Absent Christ thread recently (see post > here ...The reason I’m posting them here on this thread is because I got to reflect on something that occurred to me today while watching David Jeremiah preach on TV. And he wasn’t teaching on anything about the Trinity – I just happened to take note of him “changing” his reference when transitioning from talking about Jesus Christ on the day of the ascension and then later when God comes back to gather us for the rapture. What immediately popped up in my mind was that part in PFAL when wierwille gets all enthused about Christ’s return in book of Rev and says when He comes back as Lord of lords, and King of kings…as God Almighty He’s going to knock some ear-balls together. I also recall the many times I’ve sat through PFAL during that part (I think I stayed awake for that part - I liked watching wierwille's ears and tie go up and down when he talked excitedly ) and afterwards a newer grad might ask ,“I thought you said Jesus Christ was not God”. And sometimes – if a corps person was running the class they might intercede by saying “it was a slip of the tongue by the teacher – he gets so excited over this stuff.” Which could have been true – but also the class was filmed in 1967 – maybe wierwille hadn’t become so adamant that Jesus Christ was not God ( the copyright on my copy of JCNG is 1975) – I don’t know…maybe it was a slip of the tongue…but anyway I got to thinking today of a lot of the deep topics and concepts in Christianity… if I were God Almighty omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, inhabiting eternity, etcetera ad infinitum – what would it be like trying to convey my thoughts to a mere mortal with limited intelligence trapped in specific spacetime coordinates…Maybe it’s because we are thus limited that God must use easy references that we can comprehend. Imagine a secret agent movie – I’m meeting with God at an Italian restaurant in Manhattan and discussing our mission to retrieve the arc of the covenant that was stolen and is now in enemy hands – He says He knows exactly where it is because He sees it there even as we speak. Hmmmmm...it's beyond me why God can't just raise His Holy Hands and bring it to the restaurant “booms-quick” like when Thor calls his hammer...I mean Thor is just the God of Thunder ...but anyway – He says to meet Him tomorrow night at exactly 8 PM and DON’T BE LATE by the arc de triumph in France. Harrison Ford will meet us there too - he'll bring a few bullwhips with which I’ll wraparound certain small protrusions to climb to the top and retrieve the arc of the covenant...with God on our side we should be able to whip the enemy - metaphorically speaking of course Wow we're dealing with one sneaky enemy – hiding the arc in plain sight – arc on arc…anyway…the next day I catch an international flight from JFK airport to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport – I’m at the arc de triumph by 7:45 PM – and the whole operation goes smoothly without a hitch. If God works in partnership with us, He’ll have to give us instructions that we can relate to in the spacetime continuum. Not because He’s limited – but because we are. Trinity or no Trinity that is the question. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. Usually there’s simple worded topics to sum up really big themes. Like hamartiology – it comes from the Greek word hamartos meaning sin. Hamartiology, therefore, is the study of sin. From a biblical perspective, the study includes how sin was introduced into the world, how it impacts the world today, the solution to the sin problem of humanity, the judgment of sin, and the removal of sin at the end of time. The term soteriology comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I have several systematic theologies – some will mention the Trinity in passing when trying to explain the attributes of God or when touching on the inexpressible interrelationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I got to thinking about this absent Christ? thread – with a similar issue of trying to comprehend that Christ is here but He’s also coming back for the Gathering Together and the book of Revelation. There’s a lot of crazy stuff to mull over…thought I repost some of my posts on other threads that got into transcendence, immanence, and how we tend to underestimate the incomprehensible. ~ ~ ~ ~ and from another thread: Speaking of Einstein’s general theory of relativity I read something interesting that gets into multidimensional universes in Beyond Einstein > https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Einstein-Cosmic-Theory-Universe/dp/0385477813 ( I think it’s not a bad thing to reevaluate one’s theology periodically – maybe take a cue from science how scientists are periodically revising what is known of the world around us - anyway ...) ( Some highlights from pages 11 and 12 ) author Michio says in the late 1920’s Einstein’s general theory of relativity provided the best explanation of how our universe began. According to Einstein’s theory, the universe was born approximately 10 to 20 billion years ago in a gigantic explosion called the Big Bang. However, Michio goes on to say there were many gaps in Einstein’s theory. Why did the universe explode? What happened before the Big Bang? Theologians as well as scientists for years have realized the incompleteness of the Big Bang theory, because it fails to explain the origin and nature of the Big Bang itself. Incredibly, the superstring theory predicts what happened before the Big Bang. According to superstrings, the universe originally existed in 10 dimensions, not the 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) of today…However, Michio states because the universe was unstable in 10 dimensions, it “cracked” into 2 pieces, with a small, 4-dimensional universe peeling off from the rest of the universe…If this theory is true Michio says then it means that our universe actually has a “sister universe” that coexists with our universe. According to Michio, the superstring theory explains the Big Bang as a by-product of a much more violent transition – the cracking of the 10-dimensional universe into two pieces… …Maybe theology is somewhat like the work of theoretical physicists. We look at the given data – the text – scripture – and try to piece together some ideas of an invisible world. Where is heaven? What is heaven? What is a spiritual being? If there was a 10-dimensional universe and it split into 2 – is that now the natural world and supernatural world? Don’t know. It's a lot of theory This stuff is fascinating and fun to think about though… …I read The Trivialization of God > https://www.amazon.com/Trivialization-God-Dangerous-Illusion-Manageable/dp/0891099093 awhile back. Flipping through my copy I picked out a couple of highlighted notes that relate to this thread. On pages 16 & 17, author McCullough speaks of how the scientific revolution tended to shove aside the mysterious…flattening transcendence into measurable data. He goes on to say in place of God, we now have control and explanation…I might add with PFAL we got an extra delusional dose – we were taught the law of believing would give us actual control over reality. Yes ! a manageable reality. The book covers a lot of ground but another page struck me as something I could relate to while in TWI. On page 141 McCullough talks about understanding holiness as ethical behavior trivializes it into moralism. When we lose sight of the religious or spiritual dimension – the sense of being separate unto God – we flatten the transcendent into a horizontal code of regulated behavior – turns the Christian life into something safe and manageable – insulated from God; the rod of legalism deflects the lightning shock of the holy God… From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=578954 My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 5th 2017 11:01 PM ~ ~ ~ ~ from another thread: And I think humility should always be the flexible frame of our thoughts. I think scientists for the most part may be a bunch of very humble folks. Science is always revising what we know of the physical world, with more and more accurate testing equipment always improving on the scientific method - observation and experimentation. My personal theology focuses more on the raw biblical data - and I tend to let that inform my theology; granted there's a lot of fuzzy areas - but I'm ok with that. Getting back to God’s foreknowledge – I think to some degree we all make adjustments in our thinking in order to make sense of certain passages. The Scriptures were written by human authors yet they are supposed to be the very words of God. There’s the matter of trying to resolve passages showing Jesus’ humanity with verses that convey his deity. Another one is the sovereignty of God versus man’s freedom of will. I am sorry to cop out on you all but I do not – I cannot - offer any words of wisdom on any of this. I choose to accept both sides of the biblical data as true. I’m not saying the issues can’t be resolved but given the situation as I see it (trying to wrap my mind around God) it is definitely a fun pursuit but will never be accomplished. Like the story of Augustine and the Seashell: he saw a boy scooping up the shore’s water in a seashell and carrying it to a small hole in the sand – Augustine asked the boy what he was doing and he replied he was bringing the entire sea into the hole. http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html from: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=579064 My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 9th 2017 2:31 PM * * * * * * *

zzzzzZZZZZZ ZZZZzzzz ….the greatest cargoes of life are quietly pirated at sea….what…what…oh I'm up?

Something in the corps program?!?!?! hmmmmm you mean the corps program that was wierwille’s baby? That he ran with an iron fist? You mean The way corps program that YOU were never in and know zilch about but have to project your denial onto so you feel superior? Okay - maybe there’s something in all that

I know enough to be certain you don’t know what you’re talking about

It’s still not a valid approach- doesn’t matter who came up with it

I probably should be even further back and properly dressed

maybe half-off topic I was reviewing some posts I made in doctrinal thread Trinity – asset of liability? and some other threads where I addressed the Trinity topic – thought I’d repost some of them here…The reason I’m posting them here on this thread is because I got to reflect on something that occurred to me today while watching David Jeremiah preach on TV. And he wasn’t teaching on anything about the Trinity – I just happened to take note of him “changing” his reference when transitioning from talking about Jesus Christ on the day of the ascension and then later when God comes back to gather us for the rapture. What immediately popped up in my mind was that part in PFAL when wierwille gets all enthused about Christ’s return in book of Rev and says when He comes back as Lord of lords, and King of kings…as God Almighty He’s going to knock some ear-balls together. I also recall the many times I’ve sat through PFAL during that part (I think I stayed awake for that part - I liked watching wierwille's ears and tie go up and down when he talked excitedly ) and afterwards a newer grad might ask ,“I thought you said Jesus Christ was not God”. And sometimes – if a corps person was running the class they might intercede by saying “it was a slip of the tongue by the teacher – he gets so excited over this stuff.” Which could have been true – but also the class was filmed in 1967 – maybe wierwille hadn’t become so adamant that Jesus Christ was not God ( the copyright on my copy of JCNG is 1975) – I don’t know…maybe it was a slip of the tongue…but anyway I got to thinking today of a lot of the deep topics and concepts in Christianity… if I were God Almighty omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, inhabiting eternity, etcetera ad infinitum – what would it be like trying to convey my thoughts to a mere mortal with limited intelligence trapped in specific spacetime coordinates…Maybe it’s because we are thus limited that God must use easy references that we can comprehend. Imagine a secret agent movie – I’m meeting with God at an Italian restaurant in Manhattan and discussing our mission to retrieve the arc of the covenant that was stolen and is now in enemy hands – He says He knows exactly where it is because He sees it there even as we speak. Hmmmmm...it's beyond me why God can't just raise His Holy Hands and bring it to the restaurant “booms-quick” like when Thor calls his hammer...I mean Thor is just the God of Thunder ...but anyway – He says to meet Him tomorrow night at exactly 8 PM and DON’T BE LATE by the arc de triumph in France. Harrison Ford will meet us there too - he'll bring a few bullwhips with which I’ll wraparound certain small protrusions to climb to the top and retrieve the arc of the covenant...with God on our side we should be able to whip the enemy - metaphorically speaking of course Wow we're dealing with one sneaky enemy – hiding the arc in plain sight – arc on arc…anyway…the next day I catch an international flight from JFK airport to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport – I’m at the arc de triumph by 7:45 PM – and the whole operation goes smoothly without a hitch. If God works in partnership with us, He’ll have to give us instructions that we can relate to in the spacetime continuum. Not because He’s limited – but because we are. Trinity or no Trinity that is the question. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. Usually there’s simple worded topics to sum up really big themes. Like hamartiology – it comes from the Greek word hamartos meaning sin. Hamartiology, therefore, is the study of sin. From a biblical perspective, the study includes how sin was introduced into the world, how it impacts the world today, the solution to the sin problem of humanity, the judgment of sin, and the removal of sin at the end of time. The term soteriology comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I have several systematic theologies – some will mention the Trinity in passing when trying to explain the attributes of God or when touching on the inexpressible interrelationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I got to thinking about this absent Christ? thread – with a similar issue of trying to comprehend that Christ is here but He’s also coming back for the Gathering Together and the book of Revelation. There’s a lot of crazy stuff to mull over…thought I repost some of my posts on other threads that got into transcendence, immanence, and how we tend to underestimate the incomprehensible. ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.” chapter and verse please...An idol is an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship…How do you know what God intended? Colossians 1: 15 – 20 seems to express the opposite of what you say. It speaks of the supremacy of Christ, and note in Colossians 1:15 it starts off by saying Christ is the image (“eikon” in Greek text) of the invisible God. We get our English word “icon” from that. In computer science icon is a graphic symbol (usually a simple picture) that denotes a program, command, or a data file in a graphical user interface – like when you click on the icon for your browser – that enables you to connect to the Internet. Christ is in effect - God's icon - because Christ represents exactly what God is like . Christ is how we connect to the Father John 14:6 . Everything we come to know and experience through Jesus Christ deepens our appreciation of the compassion and forgiveness of our heavenly Father John 14:9 ~ ~ ~ ~ 3. And let’s take into account WHEN the New Testament documents were written. (see Dating the Bible and chronology of Jesus ) . Since most of them were written well after Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – we see the huge learning curve of what the disciples thought of Jesus Christ, when comparing the simple narratives of the Gospels and Acts with the more “cerebral” epistles. ~ ~ ~ ~ 4. In the Gospels the closest that comes to such big ideas about Christ is in John 1 (but then again most scholars say it was written between 90 and 110 AD – that is many years after Jesus Christ ascended) and like I said above, time-wise this reflects a very mature development of their faith and understanding of Christ. As a literary device John 1 is a fascinating prologue which serves to give the reader important information from the past that will have bearing on the future in the text that follows. It establishes the setting and introduces the protagonist and themes of the story. ~ ~ ~ ~ 5. Referring to Jesus Christ as the Logos is a big deal…even a secular source like Wiki recognizes the divinely profound implication: “The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos.” From : Wiki - The Logos . There is so much information available on the Logos I will decline to get into it here – for those interested in a small sample of what I’ve looked into you can check out my profile, section # 12 I'll have a double Kool-Aid and make it dirty - and don’t let the section title throw you – my notes on the Logos is one of the many rebuttals to wierwille’s twisted theology, logical fallacies and slipshod interpretation of Scripture…if you manage to stay awake through my “dissertation-esque” review of a few scholarly works zzzzZZZZzzz ZZZzzz I’d be happy to discuss the rich historical and philosophical significance of the Logos...we would have to have some common ground of definitions or concepts of The Trinity ...we'd probably make more headway than rehashing the same old worn out angry tirades of fluff and absurdity grounded in wierwille-isms – but I warn you if you resort to the same old wooden interpretations / proof texting of wierwille’s – I’ll probably find some excuse to bow out and watch God’s Favorite Idiot on Netflix …any PFAL grads reading this – please consider the nifty sleight-of-thought wierwille pulled off in the class – after his screwy redefinition of the Greek word pros in John 1:1 – he said it means “together with yet distinctly independent of” so far okay even though it’s a really clunky way to convey the idea of actually being in close proximity which is how it’s defined in Koine Greek. But then with the ease of a double-talking used car salesman wierwille goes on to say the ONLY WAY Jesus Christ could have been together with yet distinctly independent of God in the beginning was in the foreknowledge of God… huh? This idea of Jesus Christ was in the mind of God – and yet that idea was distinctly independent of God? Was God manifesting a huge personality split? or are we talking astral projection? just doesn’t make sense… and again I ask the simple question - can anyone provide the chapter and verse to support the idea that pros in John 1:1 means in the beginning Christ was ONLY IN GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE ? One theologian said of pros: The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means “to be in company with someone”1 or to be “face-to-face.” It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship. Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. See John 1:1 meaning and translation . From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=615751 Trinity asset or liability June 18th 2022 ~ ~ ~ ~ If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread > here – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s YOUR problem and NOT mine. And as far as the greater works of John 14:12 I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in Acts 1:8. From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=615867 Trinity asset or liability June 21st 2022 ~ ~ ~ ~ I’m far from being an expert or a dyed-in-the-wool Trinitarian but I don’t see the alleged problem you’re talking about. A note on I Corinthians 15:28, page 2076 from The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible does a far better job of squaring away everyone’s role in the future: "The Son himself will be made subject. The subordination of the Son to the Father is not one of divinity or dignity but one of function: God the Father is supreme, not subject to anyone; Jesus the Son, fully divine, carries out the Father’s will; the Spirit (not mentioned here) communicates the reality of God’s presence, truth, and salvation." End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ I had touched on this idea in my very first post on this thread ( my first post on this thread ) under point # 7 where I said: “For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” “The Trinity” is a short and simple way of referring to the intertwining functionality of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Of course that’s just my opinion – I could be wrong. From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=616211 Trinity asset or liability June 29th 2022 3:22 PM ~ ~ ~ ~ Speaking of Einstein’s general theory of relativity I read something interesting that gets into multidimensional universes in Beyond Einstein > https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Einstein-Cosmic-Theory-Universe/dp/0385477813 ( I think it’s not a bad thing to reevaluate one’s theology periodically – maybe take a cue from science how scientists are periodically revising what is known of the world around us - anyway ...) ( Some highlights from pages 11 and 12 ) author Michio says in the late 1920’s Einstein’s general theory of relativity provided the best explanation of how our universe began. According to Einstein’s theory, the universe was born approximately 10 to 20 billion years ago in a gigantic explosion called the Big Bang. However, Michio goes on to say there were many gaps in Einstein’s theory. Why did the universe explode? What happened before the Big Bang? Theologians as well as scientists for years have realized the incompleteness of the Big Bang theory, because it fails to explain the origin and nature of the Big Bang itself. Incredibly, the superstring theory predicts what happened before the Big Bang. According to superstrings, the universe originally existed in 10 dimensions, not the 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) of today…However, Michio states because the universe was unstable in 10 dimensions, it “cracked” into 2 pieces, with a small, 4-dimensional universe peeling off from the rest of the universe…If this theory is true Michio says then it means that our universe actually has a “sister universe” that coexists with our universe. According to Michio, the superstring theory explains the Big Bang as a by-product of a much more violent transition – the cracking of the 10-dimensional universe into two pieces… …Maybe theology is somewhat like the work of theoretical physicists. We look at the given data – the text – scripture – and try to piece together some ideas of an invisible world. Where is heaven? What is heaven? What is a spiritual being? If there was a 10-dimensional universe and it split into 2 – is that now the natural world and supernatural world? Don’t know. It's a lot of theory This stuff is fascinating and fun to think about though… …I read The Trivialization of God > https://www.amazon.com/Trivialization-God-Dangerous-Illusion-Manageable/dp/0891099093 awhile back. Flipping through my copy I picked out a couple of highlighted notes that relate to this thread. On pages 16 & 17, author McCullough speaks of how the scientific revolution tended to shove aside the mysterious…flattening transcendence into measurable data. He goes on to say in place of God, we now have control and explanation…I might add with PFAL we got an extra delusional dose – we were taught the law of believing would give us actual control over reality. Yes ! a manageable reality. The book covers a lot of ground but another page struck me as something I could relate to while in TWI. On page 141 McCullough talks about understanding holiness as ethical behavior trivializes it into moralism. When we lose sight of the religious or spiritual dimension – the sense of being separate unto God – we flatten the transcendent into a horizontal code of regulated behavior – turns the Christian life into something safe and manageable – insulated from God; the rod of legalism deflects the lightning shock of the holy God… From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=578954 My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 5th 2017 11:01 PM ~ ~ ~ ~ And I think humility should always be the flexible frame of our thoughts. I think scientists for the most part may be a bunch of very humble folks. Science is always revising what we know of the physical world, with more and more accurate testing equipment always improving on the scientific method - observation and experimentation. My personal theology focuses more on the raw biblical data - and I tend to let that inform my theology; granted there's a lot of fuzzy areas - but I'm ok with that. Getting back to God’s foreknowledge – I think to some degree we all make adjustments in our thinking in order to make sense of certain passages. The Scriptures were written by human authors yet they are supposed to be the very words of God. There’s the matter of trying to resolve passages showing Jesus’ humanity with verses that convey his deity. Another one is the sovereignty of God versus man’s freedom of will. I am sorry to cop out on you all but I do not – I cannot - offer any words of wisdom on any of this. I choose to accept both sides of the biblical data as true. I’m not saying the issues can’t be resolved but given the situation as I see it (trying to wrap my mind around God) it is definitely a fun pursuit but will never be accomplished. Like the story of Augustine and the Seashell: he saw a boy scooping up the shore’s water in a seashell and carrying it to a small hole in the sand – Augustine asked the boy what he was doing and he replied he was bringing the entire sea into the hole. http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html from: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=579064 My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 9th 2017 2:31 PM This is the completely, completely, absolutely complete end of the post…I think

No - I think you’re like an imposter with fake awards on the wall who shows me all his fake credentials of selling his propaganda to PhDs so I should convert to your way of thinking

I find it hilarious that when I note the cult-mindset we all adopted in TWI - you do that I-was-better-smarter-more spiritual than all you fools song. That’s pretty lame. And I wouldn’t brag about your screwy reinterpretations of wierwille dogma or nonsensical “bottom up” approach since it reveals what a goofy ever-morphing ideology you have. It’s not a good look - it definitely has impacted your “sales”. And you can store that “all really new ideas come from God “ idea where you’ve been saving your other pennies….What a really really really absolutely really asinine thing to say change is okay - I’m just wary where that change has been