T-Bone

No offense Mike, but I like to “read it in the original”. I can follow along with Dennett just fine…Your stuff is a mess!

103. PFAL teaches Christianity is more of an intellectual pursuit than being influenced by the Holy Spirit On pages 327ff chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, of the orange book PFAL, wierwille starts off referring to Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2 …A person must study the Word of God, not what people say around The Word or about The Word. What does God say? As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders… …This process of building Christ in your mind is a deliberate process that you must do by your freedom of will. You determine that you are going to send the information from God’s Word to your mind and that you are going to live it. To live by believing means to walk day by day and moment by moment by the revealed Word of God. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion wierwille’s comments are very misleading. I can tell you from 12 years of TWI-involvement how this is applied. No one – not even wierwille would say PFAL is “The Word” – or that PFAL is on par with the authority of The Bible – BUT whether TWI-followers realize that or not - such is the case in practice – evident in the attitude and respect everyone exhibits toward wierwille and PFAL. There’s really little chance of a TWI-follower learning to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, when it’s drummed into one’s head that wierwille is the Bible and Holy Spirit expert and one HAS TO take the PFAL class, the TIP class, and the Advanced Class to be taught how The Holy Spirit/holy spirit should work in one’s life…Honestly PFAL and all the other baloney classes are counterproductive to gaining a deeper knowledge of the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit. This is another one of those pet-pontifications of wierwille. He so magnified the necessity of NEEDING HIM to teach us “The Word” like it hadn’t been known since the first century – that most TWI-followers never thought about the fact that the first century believers had little “written material” to work with – it was a smattering of various Old Testament scrolls…manuscripts…and there was the occasional apostle showing up – saying "I’ve got a message from the Lord write this down" Maybe later you might want to check out when the “books” of the Bible were written and how accessible these “books” were to believers; here’s some hyperlinks/food for thought, you can check out later: Wikipedia: dating the Bible Bible Gateway: when was each book of the Bible written? Biblical Archaeology org: when was the Bible written? Blue Letter Bible org: IN WHAT FORM WERE THE BIBLICAL BOOKS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN? Bible Odyssey org: how was the Bible written and transmitted? How did early Christians view books of the Bible? Christianity Today: What Bible Version Did Jesus Read? Quora: what Bible did Jesus use? Back in the first century – as well as before then – believers did cherish the written Word of God – but it’s not like the convenience of mass-produced Bibles in many languages, versions and online we have today. But always available is the presence of the Lord. I feel that was the continuity I missed – in touch with the Holy Spirit. The Way Ministry - so entrenched in wierwille’s ideology, manages to impose religious restrictions on everyone who sticks around after taking PFAL. Something about the mentality I adopted became almost like an intellectual and emotional straitjacket. It kept me under their thumb…I had lost confidence in my cognitive abilities…disregarded gut feelings…and was too afraid to step out on a path of my own choosing because I didn’t think it was God’s will. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a study bug. Studying the Bible and thinking about it in a self-reflective manner is important. Note the context in the following passages…there is a contrast between the desires of the flesh and desires of the Spirit. Being led by the Holy Spirit suggests there is an active relationship: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8 ~ ~ ~ ~ 13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galatians 5: 13 - 26 ~ ~ ~ ~ I’ll wrap up this post circling back to the Rom. 12:2 verse that wierwille expounded upon: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2 You can click on the Rom. 12:2 hyperlink I provided and see the same verse in parallel translation – I find that comes in handy when studying…and while on Bible Hub’s website take note of the other features you can click on: interlinear, sermons, lexicon, topical, commentaries, etc.…clicking on commentaries I copied and pasted a few excerpts on Rom. 12:2 below – notice the emphasis of being led by the Spirit: Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind: Be you regenerated, and changed in your whole man; beginning at the mind, by which the Spirit of God worketh upon the inferior faculties of the soul: see Ephesians 4:23…. …The work of the Holy Ghost first begins in the understanding, and is carried on to the will, affections, and conversation, till there is a change of the whole man into the likeness of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness. Thus, to be godly, is to give up ourselves to God… …By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience... The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler… From: Bible Hub: Romans 12:2 commentaries End of excerpts

Oh - so you admit you plagiarized, did a mishmash rewrite and covered your incompetency with bull-Shonta !

Reminds me of wierwille’s playbook: plagiarize other writers, twist a few things around to cover tracks back to original authors - and through the manifestations of incompetency and faith in bull-Shonta it’s labeled new and improved

Remember the greatest cargoes of Kool-Aid are from pirated material on TVs

I HAVE the Book and Have read it. what page/pages did he phrase it the way YOU said it?

What is the page number that statement is on?

Book of Timothy was a later work of Paul - though by that time he would be considered an elder believer he stated humbly he was still a sinner. I’ve never read a written definition of righteousness by MacArthur - I’m not a spokesperson for him - but I am somewhat familiar with his works - and he’s pretty much in line with conventional definitions of righteousness- and not to be repetitive- so if you refer to my long post above - just click on the hyperlinks for righteousness - there’s a Wikipedia def. and a Bible study def.

No - the preacher I heard speaking on the I Tim. 1:15 passage was John MacArthur. the definition of righteousness that you quoted was from wierwille wasn’t it?

Yes - I can understand how wierwille’s redefinitions would help boost a hypocrite’s self-confidence

I recently posted a form of this on the thread Why PFAL sucks Reason # 102 of why PFAL sucks: Prolonged use of PFAL ideology develops a sedative to the conscience One of the long-term side effects of applying PFAL teachings is that it sabotages our ability to distinguish right from wrong. Noble attributes like righteousness and sanctification that we should strive to live out – wierwille used them more like a deflector shield to repel any criticism of his bad behavior. This wouldn’t be such a murky area for most folks – but in my 12 years of involvement with The Way International, my mindset back then was salvation by grace – it’s a free gift and never gave any thought to bearing fruit that my life has changed because of the Gospel. See Matthew 3:8 and Galatians 5 ….bearing fruit implies a process – it takes time! What also comes to mind is the idea of cheap grace. Maybe you’ve heard of it – check out this excerpt: The phrase "cheap grace" is often associated with German theologian and minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book The Cost of Discipleship. In his book, published in 1937, he said that cheap grace was "the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ." As defined by Bonhoeffer, cheap grace is an approach to Christianity that only emphasizes the good or easy parts without telling the truth regarding the difficult aspects of it. To leave out the more difficult aspects of repentance, church discipline, confession, discipleship, the cross, or the full story of Christ's life offers an incomplete, "cheap" view of God's grace. In contrast, grace is not cheap but is a priceless gift. God sent His one and only Son to die as a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus endured the pain and the shame of the cross to offer us salvation by grace through faith in Him (Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 12:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-9). Further, though salvation is a free gift of grace, the Christian life includes times and aspects of costly sacrifice. Paul, James, Jude, and Peter referred to themselves in their letters as a "servant" or "slave" of Christ Jesus. Jesus even referred to those who lived for Him as people who would take up their cross daily and follow Him (Luke 9:23). Much debate often arises between those who emphasize salvation by grace as a free gift and those who emphasize the actions of a changed life that should result from a person who has been changed by Christ. For example, in the past century a debate arose between two views representing these ideas known as Free Grace and Lordship Salvation. Both views believe salvation is available only by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, each position differs in other aspects. The Free Grace position emphasizes all that is necessary for salvation is to receive Jesus as Savior (John 1:12; John 3:16; Romans 10:9). The Lordship Salvation view argues that a person must receive Jesus as Savior and Lord to truly be saved and that genuine life change must be exhibited as a result (Luke 14:25-33; Romans 5:20-21; Ephesians 4:17-24; James 2:14-26). A driving motivation in this debate has been the growth of what some have called "carnal Christians." These are people who consider themselves Christians yet show little or no difference in their lives than non-Christians. A Free Grace position would argue that many of these people are true believers who are living in sin while a Lordship Salvation view would argue these carnal Christians have never been saved at all. In summary, the idea of "cheap grace" is one that was developed by Bonhoeffer and has had great influence within Christian thought over the past century. While the grace of God is a free gift available to all who will receive it, a disciple of Jesus Christ will also be willing to grow and endure hardship for the sake of the Gospel. Salvation is about transformation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and new life in Christ (John 10:10), not about a ticket to heaven. Our freedom came at great cost to Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Grace is free, but it is not cheap. From: Compelling Truth org: Cheap grace – What is it? End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ I heard a preacher say as we spiritually mature, we become more aware of our shortcomings. He abstracted that idea from the book of Timothy: Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. I Timothy 1:15 In my opinion as we cultivate the Christian lifestyle, we gain a greater appreciation of what Jesus Christ did for us while we were still unconverted creeps …and what often helps me pull out of a nosedive is that bigger sense of indebtedness to Jesus Christ whenever I have a relapse into my old creepiness …I think Paul had both situations in mind for him to say in a present-tense-indicative-mood-to-state-a-fact-way "speaking of sinners I am the worst !" Being involved with TWI for 12 years took a heavy toll on my soul…I had to identify…recognize the damage done to my faculties – one of which is the conscience . I believe it can be a trustworthy guide – more like a skylight that lets in the light rather than an independent source of light…so in that regard it’s rational associations based on one’s moral philosophy or value system. The topic of the conscience was one of the first big issues I talked about when I joined Grease Spot in 2006 – it still is ! Conscience exists as a faculty of the human soul. Conscience is fed and nourished, ordered and directed by what is presented to it in the rational ability of man to know objective moral truth — that is, to grasp what is truly good and what is truly evil. It does not exist apart from man’s intellect or free will. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, conscience is not the “source” of morality, but rather is its “servant.” from: Simply Catholic: what is the conscience? Rationalizing is often the delivery system for anesthetizing any qualms we may have. Leon F. Seltzer, Ph.D., holds doctorates in English and Psychology – said there’s 4 chief methods for rationalizing—or even “moralizing”—our immoral behavior: 1. Reinterpreting Culpable Conduct 2. Obscuring Personal Agency 3. Disregarding or Distorting the Consequences of Immoral Action 4. Blaming and Dehumanizing the Victims of Evil Behavior from: Psychology Today: 4 ways You Rationalize When You Act Against Your Conscience I know we all mess up at times and will do one or more of those 4 methods of rationalization...we have to do something to quiet that nagging voice in the back of our minds...but I think that's playing with fire...it's a dangerous undertaking with our conscience. However, there is a simple solution when we struggle with a guilty conscience over sinful behavior - simple to say but not to execute. The idea is "do good and you'll feel good" . I got that from Christian Counselor Jay Adams - it was a principle he abstracted from Genesis 4 God dealing with Cain. As the story goes God says to Cain "why do you look so down...if you do what is right, you'll feel accepted."...sometimes trying to NOT act like the world's biggest creep is the hardest thing for me to do...but when I do succeed, I feel pretty good about myself. In the PFAL material wierwille spoke of certain spiritual realities as a “right” – a legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. That is PARTLY true. He was really big on teaching theory but he showed little concern for practice. Here’s how he defined sanctification in the PFAL book, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338: I Corinthians 1:30 But of him [God] are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption… …The word “sanctified” means “to be set apart.” Before a man is born again of God’s Spirit, he is a man of body and soul, that’s all. But when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going... End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion, wierwille's definition of "sanctification" is an incomplete thought. Consider the dedication of the Temple in I Kings 8 , I Kings 9 and II Chronicles 5ff The dedication meant to set it apart for God’s use…to commit everything to a special purpose…It was not just the building itself that was dedicated for God’s use. It was the building, all the furniture, all the vessels, all the altars, and all the tools that were a part of this glorious Temple. The way that wierwille taught sonship rights was like deleting the middle of a three-act play…1. there’s the setup – Jesus Christ previously achieved all this great stuff for us…but then he edits out act 2 – our confrontation – that’s us trying to live the Christian lifestyle in a corrupt world…so he skips that and goes straight to act 3 – the resolution – our struggles are over – we’re in heaven - we celebrate the victory. I believe the sanctification of I Cor. 1:30 may be talking in terms of in principle but not fully realized yet – since in the passage it relates to the achievements of Jesus Christ; considering other passages on this topic, I lean toward the notion there might be two modes: 1. the immediate effect of what Jesus Christ already completed for us. 2. since we have His influence and the power of The Holy Spirit inside us - sanctification is also an ongoing process of becoming more like Christ, by purifying our hearts and minds, through repentance, prayer, and spiritual discipline. In the Bible, sanctification is mentioned frequently as a calling to align oneself with God's will and cleanse oneself from sin. As seen in the following passage: It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality I Thessalonians 4:3 I think on some topics, like this one – wierwille might have had a smidgen of the right notion – the idea of having stuff like righteousness , sanctification , redemption of Jesus Christ – the theory, if you will – but it is only an abstracted practice. Whereas practice is applied theory. Like what I Thess. 4:3 was talking about – God wants us to ACT SANCTIFIED – in practice that means avoiding sexual immorality and other sinful behavior...We should ask ourselves how would Jesus Christ act in a situation? Certainly, His actions in the Gospels always exemplified holiness. I think doing righteous acts is theory put into practice. According to Wikipedia righteousness is the quality or state of being morally correct and acceptable...that makes me think of the 2 great divine directives – love God and neighbor. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD bonus features: What does the Bible say about the conscience? The making of "Conscience" how to administer a sedative

102. Prolonged use of PFAL ideology develops a sedative to the conscience One of the long-term side effects of applying PFAL teachings is that it sabotages our ability to distinguish right from wrong. Noble attributes like righteousness and sanctification that we should strive to live out – wierwille used them more like a deflector shield to repel any criticism of his bad behavior. This wouldn’t be such a murky area for most folks – but in my 12 years of involvement with The Way International, my mindset back then was salvation by grace – it’s a free gift and never gave any thought to bearing fruit that my life has changed because of the Gospel. See Matthew 3:8 and Galatians 5 ….bearing fruit implies a process – it takes time! What also comes to mind is the idea of cheap grace. Maybe you’ve heard of it – check out this excerpt: The phrase "cheap grace" is often associated with German theologian and minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book The Cost of Discipleship. In his book, published in 1937, he said that cheap grace was "the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ." As defined by Bonhoeffer, cheap grace is an approach to Christianity that only emphasizes the good or easy parts without telling the truth regarding the difficult aspects of it. To leave out the more difficult aspects of repentance, church discipline, confession, discipleship, the cross, or the full story of Christ's life offers an incomplete, "cheap" view of God's grace. In contrast, grace is not cheap but is a priceless gift. God sent His one and only Son to die as a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus endured the pain and the shame of the cross to offer us salvation by grace through faith in Him (Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 12:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-9). Further, though salvation is a free gift of grace, the Christian life includes times and aspects of costly sacrifice. Paul, James, Jude, and Peter referred to themselves in their letters as a "servant" or "slave" of Christ Jesus. Jesus even referred to those who lived for Him as people who would take up their cross daily and follow Him (Luke 9:23). Much debate often arises between those who emphasize salvation by grace as a free gift and those who emphasize the actions of a changed life that should result from a person who has been changed by Christ. For example, in the past century a debate arose between two views representing these ideas known as Free Grace and Lordship Salvation. Both views believe salvation is available only by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, each position differs in other aspects. The Free Grace position emphasizes all that is necessary for salvation is to receive Jesus as Savior (John 1:12; John 3:16; Romans 10:9). The Lordship Salvation view argues that a person must receive Jesus as Savior and Lord to truly be saved and that genuine life change must be exhibited as a result (Luke 14:25-33; Romans 5:20-21; Ephesians 4:17-24; James 2:14-26). A driving motivation in this debate has been the growth of what some have called "carnal Christians." These are people who consider themselves Christians yet show little or no difference in their lives than non-Christians. A Free Grace position would argue that many of these people are true believers who are living in sin while a Lordship Salvation view would argue these carnal Christians have never been saved at all. In summary, the idea of "cheap grace" is one that was developed by Bonhoeffer and has had great influence within Christian thought over the past century. While the grace of God is a free gift available to all who will receive it, a disciple of Jesus Christ will also be willing to grow and endure hardship for the sake of the Gospel. Salvation is about transformation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and new life in Christ (John 10:10), not about a ticket to heaven. Our freedom came at great cost to Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Grace is free, but it is not cheap. From: Compelling Truth org: Cheap grace – What is it? End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ I heard a preacher say as we spiritually mature, we become more aware of our shortcomings. He abstracted that idea from the book of Timothy: Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. I Timothy 1:15 In my opinion as we cultivate the Christian lifestyle, we gain a greater appreciation of what Jesus Christ did for us while we were still unconverted creeps …and what often helps me pull out of a nosedive is that bigger sense of indebtedness to Jesus Christ whenever I have a relapse into my old creepiness …I think Paul had both situations in mind for him to say in a present-tense-indicative-mood-to-state-a-fact-way "speaking of sinners I am the worst !" Being involved with TWI for 12 years took a heavy toll on my soul…I had to identify…recognize the damage done to my faculties – one of which is the conscience . I believe it can be a trustworthy guide – more like a skylight that lets in the light rather than an independent source of light…so in that regard it’s rational associations based on one’s moral philosophy or value system. The topic of the conscience was one of the first big issues I talked about when I joined Grease Spot in 2006 – it still is – see my 2006 thread > - TWI's sedative to the conscience Conscience exists as a faculty of the human soul. Conscience is fed and nourished, ordered and directed by what is presented to it in the rational ability of man to know objective moral truth — that is, to grasp what is truly good and what is truly evil. It does not exist apart from man’s intellect or free will. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, conscience is not the “source” of morality, but rather is its “servant.” from: Simply Catholic: what is the conscience? Rationalizing is often the delivery system for anesthetizing any qualms we may have. Leon F. Seltzer, Ph.D., holds doctorates in English and Psychology – said there’s 4 chief methods for rationalizing—or even “moralizing”—our immoral behavior: 1. Reinterpreting Culpable Conduct 2. Obscuring Personal Agency 3. Disregarding or Distorting the Consequences of Immoral Action 4. Blaming and Dehumanizing the Victims of Evil Behavior from: Psychology Today: 4 ways You Rationalize When You Act Against Your Conscience I know we all mess up at times and will do one or more of those 4 methods of rationalization...we have to do something to quiet that nagging voice in the back of our minds...but I think that's playing with fire...it's a dangerous undertaking with our conscience. However, there is a simple solution when we struggle with a guilty conscience over sinful behavior - simple to say but not to execute. The idea is "do good and you'll feel good" . I got that from Christian Counselor Jay Adams - it was a principle he abstracted from Genesis 4 God dealing with Cain. As the story goes God says to Cain "why do you look so down...if you do what is right, you'll feel accepted."...sometimes trying to NOT act like the world's biggest creep is the hardest thing for me to do...but when I do succeed, I feel pretty good about myself. In the PFAL material wierwille spoke of certain spiritual realities as a “right” – a legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. That is PARTLY true. He was really big on teaching theory but he showed little concern for practice. Here’s how he defined sanctification in the PFAL book, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338: I Corinthians 1:30 But of him [God] are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption… …The word “sanctified” means “to be set apart.” Before a man is born again of God’s Spirit, he is a man of body and soul, that’s all. But when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going... End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion, wierwille's definition of "sanctification" is an incomplete thought. Consider the dedication of the Temple in I Kings 8 , I Kings 9 and II Chronicles 5ff The dedication meant to set it apart for God’s use…to commit everything to a special purpose…It was not just the building itself that was dedicated for God’s use. It was the building, all the furniture, all the vessels, all the altars, and all the tools that were a part of this glorious Temple. The way that wierwille taught sonship rights was like deleting the middle of a three-act play…1. there’s the setup – Jesus Christ previously achieved all this great stuff for us…but then he edits out act 2 – our confrontation – that’s us trying to live the Christian lifestyle in a corrupt world…so he skips that and goes straight to act 3 – the resolution – our struggles are over – we’re in heaven - we celebrate the victory. I believe the sanctification of I Cor. 1:30 may be talking in terms of in principle but not fully realized yet – since in the passage it relates to the achievements of Jesus Christ; considering other passages on this topic, I lean toward the notion there might be two modes: 1. the immediate effect of what Jesus Christ already completed for us. 2. since we have His influence and the power of The Holy Spirit inside us - sanctification is also an ongoing process of becoming more like Christ, by purifying our hearts and minds, through repentance, prayer, and spiritual discipline. In the Bible, sanctification is mentioned frequently as a calling to align oneself with God's will and cleanse oneself from sin. As seen in the following passage: It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality I Thessalonians 4:3 I think on some topics, like this one – wierwille might have had a smidgen of the right notion – the idea of having stuff like righteousness , sanctification , redemption of Jesus Christ – the theory, if you will – but it is only an abstracted practice. Whereas practice is applied theory. Like what I Thess. 4:3 was talking about – God wants us to ACT SANCTIFIED – in practice that means avoiding sexual immorality and other sinful behavior...We should ask ourselves how would Jesus Christ act in a situation? Certainly, His actions in the Gospels always exemplified holiness. I think doing righteous acts is theory put into practice. According to Wikipedia righteousness is the quality or state of being morally correct and acceptable...that makes me think of the 2 great divine directives – love God and neighbor. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD bonus features: What does the Bible say about the conscience? The making of "Conscience" how to administer a sedative

hey - slow down Chockfull ! I've had to renumber my next post twice while I was doing the final edits !!! Just kidding! I love all the input by everyone

99. PFAL misleads students to think that the class is the touchstone for truth What is a touchstone? Technically it’s a piece of fine-grained dark schist or jasper formerly used for testing alloys of gold by observing the color of the mark which they made on it…metaphorically it’s a standard or criterion by which something is judged or recognized; synonyms are criterion · standard · yardstick · benchmark · barometer · litmus test · indicator · indication · measure · point of reference · norm · gauge · reference · test · guide · guideline · exemplar · model · pattern. I remember an old Way Magazine article written by LCM – in it he said PFAL is the touchstone for truth. Do you remember one of the claims on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card - enables you to separate truth from error. Think about it – we’re up to point # 99 of why PFAL sucks and a lot of these ideas revolve around the inability to distinguish fact from falsehood. Does the Bible interpret itself? Of course not! Is there a law of believing that enables you to manipulate reality? Nope! Are Christians supposed to tithe? Uh-uh!

Great points by everyone! It’s always interesting when we get into how wierwille often redefined something in the Bible. And along with that I’ve noticed he slips in some other notions that are not biblical… Reviewing You Are Righteous Now, wierwille starts off by saying many born-again believers are spiritually defeated in this life because of sin-consciousness. I think of that concept in two ways – and one should be careful how to parse this: 1. Dealing with a sensitive conscience over non-moral issues 2. Struggling with a guilty conscience over sinful behavior In this post I’ll talk mostly about # 1, because of the confusion caused by wierwille’s misinterpretation and misapplication of passages that deal with non-moral issues. In the latter half I'll deal with # 2. 1. Dealing with a sensitive conscience over non-moral issues In Romans Paul addresses the issue of dealing with a sensitive conscience “over disputable matters”. What’s that? Arguing over non-moral issues. In current times it might be a debate on an appropriate dress code for work, rules in a game, voting over a bond proposal, etc. It’s not an argument over what is morally right or wrong: Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. Romans 14 Reflecting on wierwille’s overuse of Romans 8:22 Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves – I believe there was something much creepier behind his use of it in public preaching. Knowing of his bad behavior he may have been justifying his fondness for the sexual molestation of women. He took a directive to dismiss concerns over non-moral issues and warped it into a free pass on licentiousness. In I Corinthians 8 Paul covers a similar non-moral issue: 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall. I Corinthians 8 ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. Struggling with a guilty conscience over sinful behavior I’ll assume the reader of my post does NOT have a seared conscience. Personally, I battle with this one quite a bit since I am a recovering a$$-hole. Not a day goes by that I haven’t done at least a dozen horrific acts of annoying, offending, irritating others or trying to show I’m better than them sometimes at their expense. You might think I’m putting on a show of being self-deprecating – but I like to think I’m just keeping it real…Paul said: Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. I Timothy 1:15 For some reason doing things for others comes easy for me. I like to run errands for family, neighbors and friends...I like to fix stuff for others...I get into donating to charities and food drives at a local church...maybe sometimes I use that as an excuse to be crabby. but I know that's a no-no Maybe as we grow spiritually, there’s more of an appreciation of what Jesus Christ did for us while we were still creeps unconverted - and sometimes even when we have relapse into creepiness after conversion…Being involved with TWI for 12 years took a heavy toll on my soul…I had to identify…recognize the damage done to my faculties – one of which is the conscience . I believe it can be a trustworthy guide – more like a skylight that lets in the light rather than an independent source of light…so in that regard it’s rational associations based on one’s moral philosophy or value system. The topic of the conscience was one of the first big issues I talked about when I joined Grease Spot in 2006 – it still is – see my 2006 thread > - TWI's sedative to the conscience Conscience exists as a faculty of the human soul. Conscience is fed and nourished, ordered and directed by what is presented to it in the rational ability of man to know objective moral truth — that is, to grasp what is truly good and what is truly evil. It does not exist apart from man’s intellect or free will. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, conscience is not the “source” of morality, but rather is its “servant.” from: Simply Catholic: what is the conscience? We really can’t say what goes on in someone else’s mind – but since it was a well-known fact that wierwille was promiscuous and unprincipled in sexual matters – I am apt to think he saw the biblical idea of righteousness as a cloaking device for immoral behavior. I shared some of this on the determinism/free will thread: Maybe wierwille's conscience didn't bother him - but perhaps there were times he had to insulate himself from the dirty looks he would get...the bad vibes from victims… how often did he have to reinforce his ivory tower? Leon F. Seltzer, Ph.D., holds doctorates in English and Psychology – said there’s 4 chief methods for rationalizing—or even “moralizing”—our immoral behavior: 1. Reinterpreting Culpable Conduct 2. Obscuring Personal Agency 3. Disregarding or Distorting the Consequences of Immoral Action 4. Blaming and Dehumanizing the Victims of Evil Behavior from: Psychology Today: 4 ways You Rationalize When You Act Against Your Conscience I know we all mess up at times and will do one or more of those 4 methods of rationalization...we have to do something to quiet that nagging voice in the back of our minds...but I think that's playing with fire...it's a dangerous undertaking with our conscience. However there is a simple solution to #2 Struggling with a guilty conscience over sinful behavior - simple to say but not to execute. The idea is "do good and you'll feel good" . I got that from Christian Counselor Jay Adams - it was a principle he abstracted from Genesis 4 God dealing with Cain. As the story goes God says to Cain "why do you look so down...if you do what is right, you'll feel accepted."...sometimes trying to NOT act like the world's biggest a$$-hole is the hardest thing for me to do...but when I do succeed I feel pretty good about myself. Speaking of wierwille’s tendency to redefine biblical words and concepts here’s how he defined sanctification in the PFAL book, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338: I Corinthians 1:30 But of him [God] are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption… …The word “sanctified” means “to be set apart.” Before a man is born again of God’s Spirit, he is a man of body and soul, that’s all. But when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going... End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion, wierwille's definition of "sanctification" is an incomplete thought. in the Old Testament utensils of the temple were set apart for a specific use or special purpose. The way that wierwille defined it as more for a future time - set apart for heaven. I think dedicated for a specific use or special purpose in the here and now is what God had in mind. I believe the sanctification of I Cor. 1:30 may be talking in terms of in principle but not fully realized yet – since in the passage it relates to the accomplishments of Jesus Christ; considering other passages on this topic, I lean toward the notion there might be two modes: 1. the immediate effect of what Jesus Christ already accomplished for us. 2. since we have His influence and the power of The Holy Spirit inside us - sanctification is also an ongoing process of becoming more like Christ, by purifying our hearts and minds, through repentance, prayer, and spiritual discipline. In the Bible, sanctification is mentioned frequently as a calling to align oneself with God's will and cleanse oneself from sin. As seen in the following passage: It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality I Thessalonians 4:3 I think on some topics, like this one – wierwille might have had a smidgen of the right notion – the idea of having stuff like righteousness, sanctification, redemption of Jesus Christ – the theory, if you will – but it is only an abstracted practice. Whereas practice is applied theory. Like what I Thess. 4:3 was talking about – God wants us to ACT SANCTIFIED – in practice that means avoiding sexual immorality and other sinful behavior...How would Jesus Christ act in a situation? Certainly His actions exemplified holiness. I think what you all have said about doing righteous acts is the theory put into practice. According to Wikipedia righteousness is the quality or state of being morally correct and acceptable...that makes me think of the 2 great “directives” applied – love God and neighbor.

cool - I'm glad you brought it up though - never hurts to clarify

yeah - I usually refrain from using absolutes - you have a good point - let me elaborate on my reasoning. Regarding the bait-and-switch concept - for the sake of brevity, I consider whatever was "good" in PFAL is merely the attractant. For example - wierwille opens the class talking about Jesus Christ. It's like a deceptive sales ad though - because wierwille presents a materialistic Jesus Christ - the more than abundant life available to Christians who are envious of the prosperity that unbelievers have. So - you can look at it a number of ways - he talks about Jesus Christ that's good - but then wierwille pivots to pursuing material abundance through the principles we can learn in the class - that's bad. Another deviation is wierwille teaching "the Word" takes the place of the absent Christ - and students are unaware that "the Word" is what wierwille says it is - i.e., his interpretation of the Bible. so, in effect what wierwille says takes the place of the authority...the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I mean - how far do you want to go to qualify how bad PFAL is? Books of Peter, Timothy, Titus, Corinthians, Galatians all speak of the danger of false teachers introducing heresies. I don't see any directives in the Bible that say we're to salvage or reform heresies. When Jesus talked of the bad fruit from bad trees - He didn't say to reform or salvage the bad tree...but hey, this is all a matter of opinion by everyone - me included... my thinking is if something is that bad why try to cannibalize it for parts - what's the point? I didn't throw out Jesus Christ when I left TWI. I got rid of the tendency to marginalize Jesus Christ as I was taught to do so by wierwille in PFAL....A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is more important to me than PFAL, systematic theology, philosophy, etc. I might use some ideas from any of that to help unpack deep subjects - yeah and usually when I refer to PFAL for that reason it's "okay, here's what it is NOT". ~ ~ ~ ~ also, I should add I understand your intention is not to side with Mike. I get that. and I'm of the opinion most things have some merit - even if you have to do some digging. But in dealing with Mike, I've noticed if you give him an inch, he takes a yard...His comeback is "aha - you validated PFAL"...uhm no - that's not it. I've noticed when you try to talk turkey with him - you wind up getting into his pork-barrel-agreements for his pet theories and his trying to get you to make concessions on other "good" things about PFAL...Earlier on this thread Mike was arguing for the silly PFAL idea that the Bible interprets itself...it's kinda hard to take Mike seriously when he endorses any of wierwille's idiotic ideas. It's difficult to follow the Socratic method of thoughtful debate with someone who usually has a PFAL-scripted-response to almost everything. ~ ~ ~ ~ this has given me the idea for point # 99 of why PFAL sucks - stay tuned

More weird stuff ! Earlier Mike said there’s different types of free will, now he says there’s processed determinism. what’s next? fate with a checkbox to option out?

just for the record there is NOTHING good in PFAL. wierwille teaching the Bible interprets itself is nonsensical ! PFAL used a bait-and-switch ploy to sucker people in wierwille used pseudo-Christian ideas and biblical sounding phrases to convince people all was legit. But it was a lot of doubletalk solely for the purpose of pushing his interpretation of the Bible. I like the Socratic method for getting down to the essentials of what the issues are - but you acting like a troll has NOTHING to do with the thread topic - it's all about you and promoting the "bait" used in PFAL. To be clear - there's NOTHING good in PFAL

The only "good" in PFAL was the bait of the bait-and-switch con. and the "bait" was pseudo-Christian / Biblical sounding stuff - it wasn't real! You are being a tool of deception by promoting the "bait" PFAL did NOT deliver on any of the claims on the back of the green PFAL signup card

thanks So-crates! PBS always has good thought-food. I'll have to watch this a few more times - and check out the other videos that came up after this too!

yeah, and he's in a special soup for the TIP class too - just ask for the Alphabet Soup - I think it's Mike's favorite - live long and LoShonta

I beg to differ - the way corps Nazi training camp was created and run by mini-Hitler wierwille ! No PFAL for you till lunch time!

you coming here for 20 years with your PFAL schtick makes me think it's darn near impossible to break really bad habits

FYI to all Grease Spotters, I saw a bunch of holes in this post of Mike’s – and I almost responded with constructive criticism and/or corrections – but caught myself mid-draft and decided not to – on the sneaky suspicion that Mike is inclined to be lazy, I tend to think he’s just throwing a hodge-podge of bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms against the wall to see what sticks ( usually it doesn’t ) and reformulates some of the bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms according to feedback/input he gets from Grease Spotters. Woe is me – I feel so used. there there T-Bone, no sense in playing the victim card - nobody cares