T-Bone

So in other words you don’t know

you're confused! philosophical determinism is not the same as physics' cause and effect I've pointed that out to you several times...drop the baloney! physics' cause and effect - not philosophical determinism - twice I've reminded you in one post (see above) - it's established you're a stubborn bull$hit artist pure Mike speculation! HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE SPRITUAL REALM? SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE WORKING OFF THE HOOKIE POOK THEORIES OF wierwille NOPE! COMPARING spiritual apples to wax fruit flight is possible by workarounds principles of aerodynamics - lift and thrust don not overpower gravity - the principles help the plane supersede gravity overpower = defeat with superior strength...to affect with overwhelming intensity... "overcome" might be a better word to us supersede = take the place of, displace (look into principles of buoyancy / water displacement with sea vessel design) override. ~ ~ ~ ~ Question: What does the Bible, the spiritual realm, the sciences, and philosophy have in common? Answer: It doesn't matter if Mike is talking about any of them altogether or separately since it appears he usually doesn't know what he's talking about anyway.

Fear is sand in the cement mixer of life…Jimmy “Blue Eyes” is making you some concrete shoes Salt is like sand in the Margaritta of life…wasting away again in Margaritaville People are like fodder in the Wood Chipper of life…ding ding ding – daily double pun - that's 2 extra gross out points ! – Soylent Green is people and wood chipper scene in Fargo

I think Rush’s other song is more relevant here: Today's Tom Sawyer, he gets high on you And the threads he invades, he gets by on you And what we say about neuroscientists Will have some Grease Spotters throwing big fits

I’ve got a couple of fun Bibles for harmonizing: The Narrated Bible in Chronological Order (NIV) by F. LaGard Smith Noted on the back by John Kohlenberger III “for any reader who has struggled with the flow of Old Testament and Gospel narrative” Gospels are interesting - combined – literally just pieced together all 4 into a one narrative – like you’re getting 4 different news feeds – in paragraph form ~ ~ ~ ~ NIV, Integrated Study Bible, Hardcover: A New Chronological Approach for Exploring Scripture, editor John R. Kohlenberger III Has parallel passages arranged in side-by-side columns ~ ~ ~ ~ Concerning Bullinger: I’ll never forget an interesting comment wierwille said about Bullinger – either at PFAL ’77 or Advanced Class ’79 – he said (in reference to Bullinger) something like if you squeeze The Word too hard you’ll have error run out through your fingers…of all people – it’s really ironic for wierwille the unabashed plagiarist to say that…who knows - maybe even an incompetent fake doctor could spot it too ! I think there is something to wierwille’s observation anyway. I like Bullinger’s Companion Bible for the convenience of historical notes, literary structure, noting figures of speech…I like the convenience of Biblical language notes on verses – although I don’t always trust his definitions – so I often use Companion Bible in tandem with reputable authors’ lexicons who have expertise in the language. Bullinger’s dispensationalism, 4 crucified, NT canon comments, numbers in scripture, witness of the stars, giver and the gifts do not appeal to me – I think that’s where Bullinger squeezed the Word too hard – reminds me of that Hidden Bible Codes that came out a while back – by selecting equidistant letter sequences from within the 3,300 year old Hebrew Bible that form words and phrases they demonstrated foreknowledge and prophecy… ...My take? There could be something to it… ...but personally I’ve got no problem believing the Bible is the Word of God and frankly though this stuff didn’t get into decoding any still future events in the book of Rev. like the gazillion other books on Bible prophecy - I’m sticking with the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the here and now – I think that’s the best prep for any “impending doom” – geez I already freaked out of end times stuff when 9/11 happened – wife and I were in California on vacation when that happened – actually thought I must have missed something and we’re in tribulation mode now - and fyi I don’t get hung up in pre mid or post trib or when this or that is gonna happen. I already told you my game plan I’m sticking with the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the here and now – I think that’s the best prep for any “impending doom”. There I’ve said it twice – it’s established!

a most excellent post ! thanks! here be the lyrics: There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive The stars aren't aligned or the Gods are malign, blame is better to give than receive You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand The cards were stacked against them they weren't born in Lotus Land All preordained, a prisoner in chains, a victim of venomous fate Kicked in the face, you can pray for a place, in heaven's unearthly estate You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt that's far too fleet You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill

You got me thinking what were the chances of there being red drapes on - what was it - in an apartment the lady was looking for? How big an area are we looking at? And it’s not like she was asking for drapes that had the American flag , the constitution and the Declaration of Independence on them . It wasn’t that unique a request. And that was an example of using the law of believing? and the other example of believing in reverse - fear in PFAL . What killed that little boy? Tragic accident? Yes. But was that so unusual? I don’t mean to sound crass but people get killed all the time - riding in cars, as pedestrians, killed by drunk drivers. Why link that little boy’s death to his mother’s fear? what kind of consoling would wierwille do at a funeral? “Uhm, ma’am did your son take the PFALclass? Did you? Were you afraid your son was going to die one day? Here’s a green PFAL signup card - which one of these 10 benefits of the class would you like the most?”

Do your professor friends and Facebook groups know about you acting like a troll on Grease Spot Cafe for 20 years? and are they all aware that you believe the Bible interprets itself? do they know about your devotion to a cult-leader who had claimed he heard from God it was okay to plagiarize other people’s work and sexually molest women? are any of your professors / Facebook friends published authors? Are any of them women? I wonder what they would think of someone who defends such a creep like wierwille to the hilt?

You have been consistently nebulous in a vacuous and verbose way In order to have a consensus folks would have to agree on your terminology and concepts…I don’t think there’s a chance in Gehenna of that happening any time soon.

what nonsense! and you share stuff like this with professors and other great minds on Facebook? when you say stupid bull$hit like this you show everyone you understand NOTHING about critical thinking.

see how much you waffle now you question if free will even exists if free will has been important in science, religion, judicial systems, etc. for thousands of years - what is unsettled about it?

I have little faith in your math skills cuz you believe there were 4 crucified with Jesus. what a stupid doctrine!

No - if indeed you've read those books - you are offering YOUR interpretation of those books. there's a difference - and I don't trust your interpretive skills anyway cuz you believe the Bible interprets itself you also said when Jesus Christ comes back, He will be holding a copy of the PFAL book. take it or leave it - you said that too.

if that's true - then why do you persist here when folks shoot innumerable holes in your nonsense speculations? what you say doesn't ring true. it makes more sense that you act like a troll. that would explain why you persist here.

but I didn't ask you about other people's books. I asked you what data do you have to support your statements? To be upfront with you, I do not trust your understanding and interpretation of other people's books because of the way you are with wierwille's books - you mishmash stuff together and make it even worse than it already is. I could be wrong - but I feel you switched to this minFW/determinism business cuz you may have figured you could pull a fast one on bull$hitting people who are not as familiar with philosophy as they are with PFAL. why should I trust anything you say when you refuse to admit that wierwille's "the Bible interprets itself" dictum is utter nonsense.? we speak in two different languages. I try to use logic and conventional definitions...and you do NOT. To communicate there has to be something in common.

you got suckered in by wierwille's tilting at windmills. he used a false premise "Scripture buildup" to piece together an erroneous interpretation of 4 different gospels

do you really talk this way with your Facebook friends, grad students and neuroscientist buddies? And do they laugh at your "theories"? saying minimalistic free will being FULLY deterministic is contradictory! Do you not understand that? I can't imagine that bringing satisfaction to "this vast bulk of scientists, working on far more tame issues." frustration or maybe annoyance - if you insist on blathering like this what is "garden variety Newtonian determinism" ? how is that related to minimalistic free will and philosophical determinism? what data do you have that shows a correlation with "garden variety Newtonian determinism" , minimalistic free will and philosophical determinism?

How can you say "There DEFINITELY is determinism in Quantum, but it is modified" when quantum mechanics is a fundamental theory in physics that provides a description of the physical properties of nature at the scale of atoms and subatomic particles. It is the foundation of all quantum physics including quantum chemistry, quantum field theory, quantum technology, and quantum information science. what data do you have to support your statements?

I'm circling back around to handle this confusion - covered it before - doing it again - I love to rehash determinism in science is cause and effect...philosophical determinism is categorically different...you confuse the two together...that is showing your stupidity...as shown below: how did you perform a scientific analysis of philosophical determinism? Are you making this stuff up as you go along? It seems like you are...here's more confusion: how is philosophical determinism SO SOLID? what data do you have to prove your "theories" on minFW? Are you this incoherent, disorganized and unclear when you discuss this stuff with your Facebook friends, grad students and neuroscientist buddies?

and make sure they're fire-resistant red drapes...for when those new students LoShonta like a house afire

sounds great! I'm looking forward to it!

It looks to me that you have a tendency to overcomplicate things and get hung up on the oddest details. You make such a big deal out of getting the right edition...I doubt if you're qualified to review either. you even admitted you didn't read through the first edition...you cite other people's take on it. this sounds like the way you dragged your feet on reading "Undertow" - if you ever really did read it...you said you couldn't get past the author's questioning of PFAL's the Bible interprets itself. You make such a fuss about the difference between the two editions of elbow room but never specify what they are. Then you even have good remarks about the Wikipedia article on the 1984 edition. What? you're inconsistent...something seems fishy...I have no problem understanding his Dennett's work...I wonder if you're in way over your head - or you haven't done enough "research" to make this trolling seem legit.

that seems like the same problem you have here when folks try to explain to you the ILLOGIC OF WIERWILLE'S ASSERTION THAT THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF. The problem might not be with some lack in others - but with you being unwilling or incapable of listening to logic. come to think of it - you do the same thing with your incessant promotion of returning to PFAL. You even come up with stuff that's hidden in it - like we need you to decode wierwille...physician heal thyself

104. wierwille’s teaching “the renewed mind” was a tool of manipulation I quoted item # 103 of why PFAL sucks to make it clear this is a whole different angle – of Romans 12:2, where cult-leaders use it as a manipulative tool. The manipulation hides under the guise of self-improvement – the pseudo-Christian cult-leader bids us to adopt an attitude supposedly in the Bible…we may naturally have a desire to grow, and we assume the cult-leader has our best interests in mind – so by our own efforts we follow their lead. (*see below DVD extras strategies of manipulative people) In item #103 I quoted from the latter part of chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, out of the orange book PFAL. Now I quote from the first page of the chapter: What does it mean “to renew one’s mind”? It means to hold The Word in mind and act accordingly. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ But Romans 12:2 does NOT state “hold The Word in mind and act accordingly.” (* See below in DVD extras for commentaries on Romans 12:2 – it’s about being led by the Holy Spirit as the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ upholds our feeble frame to appropriately respond to God) wierwille’s usual manner of influence was to authoritatively state a Bible passage and morph it into justifying even the most inappropriate behavior. When I was in-residence for way corps training, under the pretext of preparing us to provide Christian counseling to believers in even the most unusual situations, wierwille showed us a porn video. Afterwards I think wierwille sensed how shocked and offended many of us were - so he says something along the lines of, “Anything done in the love of God is okay – and I’m doing this out of love to help prepare you for ministering to others…I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” For a little more context, this was during my first year in-residence. My wife and I were newbies in-residence (younger corps), we always felt like we had to fit in…so there was that subtle pressure of * groupthink (see below - DVD extras on groupthink and * how following others can mask cognitive dissonance) I never heard of anyone in the younger corps or elder corps complain or voice concerns, doubts or questions about that or any of the other inappropriate things wierwille said or did. There’s something to that old saying “seeing is believing”. Folks who have never been in the way corps program might have to actually see the dark underbelly of the beast to accept that it really exists. If you’ve never been in the way corps or around wierwille when he was relaxed, being himself…and occasionally in unguarded moments he would reveal something so dark that you’d think most normal people would usually keep something like that secret - except to maybe a therapist . Reflecting on those times I see another aspect of wierwille – his inability to exercise good judgment. It’s been said sometimes you must go through the worst to get to the best. My way corps experience may be a weird variation of that. I had to experience some of the inner workings of The Way International – how wierwille trained his leaders – to get the clearest picture of how a dangerous and deceptive cult qualifies PFAL grads to manage the ministry at all levels…Words would often fail me and feelings of confusion, shame, and guilt would choke what I wanted to communicate to my sponsors – who were all non-corps. I realized even back then – UNLESS THEY HAD SEEN the hypocrisy and abuse by wierwille and upper leadership, they just wouldn’t believe it. So, in letters, phone calls and face-to-face conversations with our sponsors we were reticent in why we said we were leaving TWI – mostly because we were still trying to sort everything out. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD extras *Excerpts of commentary on Romans 12:2 …By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience. “The mind” here is not strictly identical with what we now mean by “conscience;” it is, as it were, the rational part of conscience, to which the moral quality needs to be superadded. The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler… …Note, then, that the foundation of all transformation of character and conduct is laid deep in a renewed mind. Now it is a matter of world-wide experience, verified by each of us in our own case, if we have ever been honest in the attempt, that the power of self-improvement is limited by very narrow bounds. Any man that has ever tried to cure himself of the most trivial habit which he desires to get rid of, or to alter in the slightest degree the set of some strong taste or current of his being, knows how little he can do, even by the most determined effort. Something may be effected, but, alas! as the proverbs of all nations and all lands have taught us, it is very little indeed. ‘You cannot expel nature with a fork,’ said the Roman. ‘What’s bred in the bone won’t come out of the flesh,’ says the Englishman. ‘Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?’ says the Hebrew. And we all know what the answer to that question is. The problem that is set before a man when you tell him to effect self-improvement is something like that which confronted that poor paralytic lying in the porch at the pool: ‘If you can walk you will be able to get to the pool that will make you able to walk. But you have got to be cured before you can do what you need to do in order to be cured.’ Only one knife can cut the knot. The Gospel of Jesus Christ presents itself, not as a mere republication of morality, not as merely a new stimulus and motive to do what is right, but as an actual communication to men of a new power to work in them, a strong hand laid upon our poor, feeble hand with which we try to put on the brake or to apply the stimulus. It is a new gift of a life which will unfold itself after its own nature, as the bud into flower, and the flower into fruit; giving new desires, tastes, directions, and renewing the whole nature. And so, says Paul, the beginning of transformation of character is the renovation in the very centre of the being, and the communication of a new impulse and power to the inward self… From: Bible Hub: commentaries Romans 12:2 ~ ~ ~ ~ *groupthink In a harmful and controlling cult followers will have a sense of the desire for harmony or conformity in the group. In cults this will result in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation. Social psychology is the scientific study of how thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are influenced by the real or imagined presence of other people or by social norms. Social psychologists typically explain human behavior as a result of the relationship between mental states and social situations, studying the social conditions under which thoughts, feelings, and behaviors occur, and how these variables influence social interactions. I adapted the above from Wikipedia: groupthink ~ ~ ~ ~ * strategies of manipulative people The following ae excerpts by Abigail Brenner a board-certified psychiatrist in practice for more than 30 years: Manipulative people are really not interested in anyone else except for getting them to unwillingly participate in their plans. Handling a manipulative person requires staying alert, staying in touch with one's own truth, and anticipating what is to come. Traits of manipulative people include ignoring others' boundaries and avoiding responsibility. Manipulative people have mastered the art of deception. They may appear respectable and sincere but often that’s just a facade; it's a way to draw you in and ensnare you in a relationship before they show their true colors. Manipulative people are really not interested in you except as a vehicle to allow them to gain control so that you become an unwilling participant in their plans. They have several ways of doing this, as many of you will recognize. They will often take what you say and do and twist it around so that what you said and did becomes barely recognizable to you. They will attempt to confuse you, maybe even making you feel as if you’re crazy. They distort the truth and may resort to lying if it serves their end. Manipulative people can play the victim, making you seem to be the one who caused a problem which they began but won’t take responsibility for. They can be passive-aggressive or nice one minute and standoffish the next, to keep you guessing and to prey on your fears and insecurities. They often make you defensive. They can also be extremely aggressive and vicious, resorting to personal attacks and criticism, dogged in their pursuit of getting what they want. They bully and threaten, and won’t let up or let go until they wear you down. From: Psychology Today: 9 Classic Strategies of Manipulative People_They prey on your best qualities End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ *How following others can mask cognitive dissonance Excerpts from an article by Matt Wallaert, a behavioral scientist: …a study on facial feedback and the design is fairly simple. We give people some cartoons to read and then ask them to rate how funny they are. In one condition, they do this while holding a pen in their mouth by the tip with their lips, like a straw. In another, they use their teeth instead. The trick is that holding a pen by the lips forces their facial muscles into a frowning position, while holding it with their teeth forces a smile. And when they trick themselves into frowning or smiling, it turns out they rate the cartoons as less or more funny accordingly. A related study shows that people tricked into smiling had lower heart rates during stressful tasks and were more likely to emerge feeling positive; it isn’t just perception that changes, it is your actual physical and mental reaction to the situation. This is because your brain wants what you feel and believe to line up with what you do, avoiding what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. And because actions are tough to adjust in real time (it is hard to deny you were just frowning or smiling) and beliefs are easier, the brain tends to move the beliefs. From: Review First Round: when grin and bear it isn’t the right answer End of excerpts

Sorry – I’m usually the culprit in straying way off-topic But you know – some new threads are started that way Also, I find there can be a nice interconnectedness to other threads – lately I’ve taken advantage of that – linking a post here to other threads and then going to other threads and linking them back to here. I'm hoping it provides some continuity for someone when a point resonates with them, and they can easily cross-reference to what others said on other threads related to that point.