T-Bone

107. A. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. Part A: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff: I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?” “I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.” “I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”… …“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”… … ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.” “So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.” “So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.” “But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.” “At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.” “…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!” …”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.” “I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.” “So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.” “We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…” “You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it." End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ I leave it to Grease Spotters to consider the very revealing words of a con artist. It’s possible one can have such delusions of grandeur that they believe their mission is not a con – but to help people. I am not challenging his motivation or intent. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People may want to do the right thing and follow what they think is the right way to do something. But that doesn’t mean what they’re doing is right. I believe in a lot of religions – and cults - people are not always aware of their sin nature and believe if they do this “good thing”, there is a reward waiting for them. There are a few things in those excerpts that are very telling about wierwille. In his narrative he comes across as misogynistic – considering the culture and times that seems about par. And I think that attitude permeated his ministry for a long time – I can’t speak for the TWI-mindset after I left in ’86. Also, my suspicion is drawn to wierwille knowing how to fake tongues. He spoke Greek and Hebrew (from PFAL material I know that biblical languages were not his long suit ). He doesn’t say who these men were or what their qualifications were who led him to “speak another language” but if they were leaders at this rally – I would assume they were pastors and/or theologians familiar with the biblical languages and would have recognized wierwille quoting from Genesis and John – or even to a serious Bible student like myself – I would have picked up on those very familiar passages since I’ve done a number of studies with an interlinear text and lexicons. Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church. And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.” So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not! In part B I’ll get into the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. end of part A ~ ~ ~ ~

I'm not trying to be nitpicky - but the thread title differs from your thread starter post - or rather after Mike deflected on the 7th The Man of God thing - we never did return to that

true dat!

OldSkool - thanks for the link: http://www.posterite-d-abraham.org/BULLINGER/index_companion.html Hey Nathan_Jr just a suggestion on how I deal with Bullinger...some of his detailed work - like in the appendices serve me as a good starting...almost like using a concordance or topical Bible - I try to separate the data from the belief system of the author - like with topical Bibles the editor might group certain passages mentioning "spirit" together and list them as it having to do with the manifestations of the spirit - wierwille did that a lot on many subjects. Bullinger and his research team were very organized and hyper-focused. that can be to your advantage if you look past his ideology...it's a lot easier identifying and isolating his ideology than wierwille's - cuz there is some logic to Bullinger whereas wierwille was incompetent, illogical and more eclectic PFAL taught me wrong on a lot of things...and I had to make up for it by getting into stuff hermeneutics and systematic theology to sort out what's what...to this day I still try to exercise good critical thinking skills with everything I read - even favorite authors/editors of Study Bibles and systematic theology, etc. I don't agree 100 % with everything. I go with what makes sense to my pea brain. I am aware of my own confirmation bias - I believe the Bible is inspired of God but there's a human element in it. So, I part company when authors are sticklers for the inerrancy of Scripture. But the same author may be fine on basic tenets of Christianity - like the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the 2 great commandments, our sin nature, trusting God, the moral demands of Scripture, etc. Having some intellectual standards is a good thing. I believe Bullinger's were pretty good. wierwille had none - so PFAL should not be considered the gold standard....I think ever-developing critical thinking skills is a pretty good standard - if something is valid - if it's truth - if it's a fact - it will hold up under the closest scrutiny. The only good thing I can say about PFAL is it got me interested in systematic theology, hermeneutics, philosophy of religion...It was like having a swimming coach who didn't know how to swim himself and he wasn't even a good teacher - but the experience introduced me to swimming - and I now love swimming.

Big deal if they have the book of Mormon - we have the PFAL book - and it's orange!!!!

sometimes it may be best to defend someone who has the potential to really hurt you

It’s okay to feel guilty about some things

106. You’re only as free as the cult-leader says you’re free

and here's the backstory on the new class - at HQ they used the scientific method on which class to update - PFAL or the Advanced Class:

Warning: the magic tricks and pseudoscience taught in PFAL should NOT be attempted at home or at Twig. Leave that to professional con artists – someone might get hurt:

I liked this pun:

well maybe TWI is a non-prophet organization after all

hey you big dummy, I found these at https://kidadl.com/quotes/sanford-and-son-quotes-from-the-classic-70s-sitcom : 1. "Fred Sanford: I still want to sow some wild oats. Lamont Sanford: At your age, you don't have no wild oats, you got shredded wheat." 2. "Lamont Sanford: You know what they say, the truth will set you free. Fred Sanford: Your uncle Edgar told the truth, and the judge gave him six months." 3. "Lamont Sanford: You're a dirty old man ya know that? Fred Sanford: And I'm gonna be one 'till I'm a dead old man." 4. "Fred Sanford: Let's do like they did in the Bible: Moses spread his arms out and the Red Sea divided. Lamont Sanford: So we're gonna do like Moses? Fred Sanford: No, we're gonna do like the Red Sea and split."

Oh, I doubt that you’re really into the stated topic of this discussion – you act too much like a troll. That just doesn’t ring true. You complain about what dullards we are compared to your brainy friends / Facebook discussion groups. Do your professor friends and Facebook groups know about you acting like a troll on Grease Spot Cafe for 20 years? do they know about your devotion to a cult-leader who had claimed he heard from God it was okay to plagiarize other people’s work and sexually molest women? Are any of your professors / Facebook friends published authors? Are any of them women? I’ll tell you why all this is relevant. Legitimate scientists, professors, published authors have intellectual standards. Plagiarism is a no-no. That relates to having integrity and a good work ethic also. And being a sexual predator as a side gig is not okay – it’s not just morally wrong – it’s against the law. Now take wierwille who acted like he was above the law - a law unto himself...and yet YOU defend him! I wonder what they would think of someone who defends such a creep like wierwille to the hilt? Why do you keep coming back here to pull the same old repetitive act of trolling when people confront you about it? I don't hear of you complaining about your brainy friends / Facbook folks giving you a hard time - really - why do you keep coming back?!?! ...Geez Louise - Jesus told His disciples if people didn't want to hear about the gospel message, then just leave - shake the dust off your sandals...why do you stick around here? honestly!!! I'd like to know. Do you act like that with your professor friends / Facebook group discussions? Do you refer to us as “those dummies on Grease Spot who don’t understand you”?

when trolls invade a topic - it becomes about them because they introduce off-topic stuff and anything else to detract from a normal discussion - the person acting like a troll then acts offended when called out about it saying we're making it about him. that's playing the victim card. This thread has pretty much been off the tracks from the get-go...starting with Mike's goofy "thesis" ...thus the discussion has been mostly ABOUT THE WAY MIKE REDEFINES TERMS AND CONCEPTS and even tries to shoehorn in some wierwille/PFAL bull$hit / pseudoscience...folks question him on the re-definitions, point out contradictions and nonsense - and he gets offended...Mike makes it sound like it's our fault that he's such a poor communicator...oh well now he's using the condescending ploy Mike introduces ideas from wierwille and PFAL - but he says they're right out of the Bible - and takes offense when he gets called out about it...just ask for chapter and verse on whatever idea he posits - and it will more than likely be some passage that wierwille twisted around to support his screwy ideology condescending - people who act like a trolls SAY they're interested in the topic

yes yes yes! Now open your Magic PFAL Spell Book boys and girls...and invoke the wierwille spirit...PFAL interprets itself...wierwille interprets himself...wierwille's interpretation trumps any other interpretation...wierwille's determination alters your self-determination....uhm...more like he hijacked it.

be careful what you ask for - especially with Mike

I see where the problem might be - in MIKE'S THINKING there is a magical world where Gnosticism, spiritualism, fundamentalism and wierwille's ideology peacefully coexist and makes sense people see what they want to see in "The Word"...like wierwille's stupid magical law of believing. Geez now Mike is downgrading .. Sir Isaac Newton ! What audacity Mike has...Newton was an English mathematician, physicist, astronomer, alchemist, theologian, and author (described in his time as a "natural philosopher"), widely recognized as one of the greatest mathematicians and physicists and among the most influential scientists of all time. He was a key figure in the philosophical revolution known as the Enlightenment. ...not shabby for just being a hobby Mike is changing it up here...instead of letting Newton's life's work speak for itself - Mike has decided to interpret Newton's work for us. wow wee wow translation = Mike likes something when he can twist it around to fit his argument. and even after he's worked something over and it becomes extreme nonsense - he imagines it makes sense...to him anyway and yet Mike said earlier "When the spiritual world interacts with the physical world a WHOLE NEW SET of laws, spiritual laws, come into play. " once again Mike contradicts himself here's more gee whiz speculation by Mike about stuff he doesn't know about

just like wierwille's nonsense "the Bible interprets itself" now it's the universe alters itself

once again Mike is confusing philosophical determinism with physics' cause and effect

In your make believe world anything is possible

If you’re stuck in the lies of pseudoscience Gnosticism spiritualism fundamentalism and wierwille’s ideology - if it was already determined- then you are indeed stuck. if you freely choose to think outside the pseudo intellectual box that you’ve crammed yourself into then there is hope

Says who? you? you also believe the Bible interprets itself