T-Bone

That’s like Yogi Berra taking the PFAL class all over again

say - this would fit right in on the NT canon thread with so-and-so's "literary structure" debacle abbadabbadoo

That reminds me…the other day I saw my wife in the kitchen praying in the Holy Ghost, but I couldn't see the Holy Ghost. * *Similar to the TWI ploy of answering a question with a question – countering Groucho with Groucho

112. wierwille misleadingly teaches what he thinks is true worship In The New Dynamic Church, chapter 7, What is True Worship? Pages 81ff, wierwille starts off by quoting from John 4: 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ~ ~ ~ ~ In a previous post I quoted wierwille saying “The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it." I think wierwille was such an arrogant self-described holy spirit expert that he would create an extraneous idea out of a text even if it just mentioned the word “spirit”. He goes on from quoting John 4 to say true worship is speaking in tongues. Students taking PFAL for the first time are unaware of wierwille’s knack for reading into the text. It’s called Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out a text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective. From: Eisegesis - Wikipedia ~ ~ ~ ~ I won’t bore you with mentioning anymore of wierwille’s erroneous babble. Instead, let’s consider the more obvious line of thought Jesus was talking about in John 4. Remember humankind was made in the image and likeness of God. Rather than conforming to some external religious-looking ritual - just going through the motions. Jesus was telling us to worship God with that part of us that is like Him – the supernatural side – and in truth - consistent with what has been revealed in Scripture. Prayer and how we each think of God and relate to God is deeply personal…unique…indescribable…pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like to control followers and dictate what is required for religious service. That’s reason # 112 of why PFAL sucks.

Hey all, I don’t ever mean to drive everyone into a tizzy with stuff I share. I like the freedom we have on a non-religious site - I don’t feel like I have to kowtow to a particular theology. My wife and I differ on our SIT experiences - and we don’t make it or a lot of other topics a dealbreaker. I have a Roman Catholic background and she was raised southern Baptist. Prayer and how we each think of God and relate to God is deeply personal…unique…indescribable. I’m perfectly happy that our top priority is no longer TWI’s agenda but our family!

I’m in category #3 …as a high school class clown I used to have foreign characters in my repertoire sounding like someone from Russia, China , Africa, and New York - NY was easy since I grew up there …but seriously at session 12 I just jumped into my high school foreign student schtick cuz it felt natural to do that - some old habits never die

I don’t get out much so I like getting turned on to new music – thanks for mentioning For King & Country and Third Day. I also quoted an earlier post of yours cuz I like the simplicity and eloquence of it My Mom was from Nova Scotia - her dad was a fisherman and rumrunner during prohibition era on one family vacation – I was about 7-years old, grandpa, my dad and I were walking along the shoreline and came upon a seagull walking around with a busted wing. I reached down and gently petted its head – looking up I could tell by their expressions my impulsiveness freaked out dad & grandpa - at home I had to drag my dad into conversations with my friends to back up my seagull story as an eyewitness. My wife and I vacationed there a few years ago – including a whale watching cruise!

Lauren Daigle has such a soulful sounding voice I have her 2018 album Look Up Child...the first track is electrifying:

Hi Bolshevik, I’m replying to you quoting me, just to acknowledge that I have been reading all your recent posts on other threads too and to give you some feedback. I have been quiet and had chosen not to get caught up in the bruhaha over Waydale and Grease Spot Café...and it seems you've generated a lot of it. The main reason I have not jumped in is because I really really do like you from all that I know about you interacting with you all these years, and I admire all the insight you’ve shared here…also I absolutely love your sense of humor – and cannot get enough of it – especially whenever you’re on a roll. For several reasons I must respectfully decline from engaging you over your continued insinuations and referring to incidents, conspiracies, mind-games, and victimizations and who is to blame. This all seems like such a drastic dark turn from the Bolshevik that I know and love - I am at a loss of how to respond. Please don’t force a reaction from me and/or expect me to choose a side. Waydale is before my online activity. The folks and forums of Grease Spot Café mean so much to me. I don’t want to fight with you. I’m afraid to say much more because sometimes I make matters worse when I open my big mouth. Love and peace T-Bone

Good points! What comes to mind is all the places in the gospels where Jesus criticized and condemned the hypocritical phony religious leaders. Was forgiveness available to them? I’m sure it was. And it would be voluminous to detail each and every time someone came to Jesus in a one-on-one scenario to seek forgiveness and repent...the gospels were written by eyewitnesses and/or compiled by others from stories by eyewitnesses...since Jesus never wrote a gospel, we are not privy to every single one-on-one "evangelizing" or "counseling" session he "conducted". But you know there had to be a lot of those. Two things are noteworthy at the crucifixion scene: 1. Jesus prayed to God to forgive those who had a hand in crucifying him. 2. Some people - like the malefactor on the cross next to Jesus – might have a change of heart when they’re at death’s door My response to folks who criticize Grease Spot’s purpose to tell the other side of the story – is to say that Grease Spot also decries the hypocritical phony religious leaders of TWI. Shame on all the folks who want to play God by saying the victims are not forgiving or assume predators can’t change - especially if they are confronted with their sins....what it comes down to is that no one knows what goes on in the hearts of the victims and the predators. God does...and He works on a case-by-case basis...we just don't know of everything that happens in the hearts and behind the scenes.

It doesn’t matter – in light of my next comment, which exposes your false assumption that TWI WENT bad. It's been bad from the get-go!!!!! That will be handled in my next session. And not that I need to establish credibility with someone like YOU who has NO CREDIBILITY HERE on Grease Spot Café – but for those new to Grease Spot I’ll mention my TWI involvement in brief here: I was in TWI from 1974 to 1986 and served in various capacities Twig, Branch, Area Coordinator helping on a volunteer basis in numerous projects to establish new fellowships, run classes, develop coffee houses, and coordinate advances. I also participated in two notable programs: The Word Over the World (W.O.W.) missionary program and The Way Corps leadership training program. I did not realize it at the time but these were really part of an indoctrination process designed with the express purpose of getting me to accept a certain set of beliefs uncritically. I have served in several states: Texas, Louisiana, Indiana, Colorado, New York, Washington D.C. and Illinois. [FYI for the extended version – please see the about me tab in my profile here - if you can stay awake for the whole thing – zzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz - it’s about 110 pages - and keeps growing with updates -if you copied and pasted it into a word doc – which I do anytime I update it – kinda like an online journal of a cult-survivor. I should warn everyone, if you are a big fan of wierwille and think everything is peachy keen with The Way International – then maybe you should not read it. My primary target audience is anyone in the way corps – whether or not they’re still active in TWI – and more specifically they have a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of TWI / the way corps program to fulfill its declared goals - and the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent. These folks are my primary target audience because I understand and share similar feelings. The only big unresolved problem they may still have, is that they have not yet fully come to terms with the toxic legacy of victor paul wierwille. Another reason – and probably the most necessary reason I keep writing is twofold. This has been great therapy…not that everything is fixed…it’s an ongoing lifetime project in which I have a vested interest. And complementary to my story is the hope it might provide to the reader. NOT as a guide for how to leave The Way International and unpack the mental and emotional baggage. But merely as proof that it can be done, and it won’t ruin your life. Someone’s how-to’s, therapies, critical analysis of TWI's theories / practice and also personal recovery strategies may be totally different than mine – and I bet they'll probably work just as well. ] WENT wrong, stale or evil? It was evil from the start – did you forget about the floundering president and “original” cult-leader wierwille? How soon they forget you, my beloved Weltweisheit! Yes – that’s right - the fake doctor verville was my boyvriend! Doesn’t matter – the cult of personality – i.e., the wierwille-cult lives on! Doesn’t matter – the cult of personality – i.e., the wierwille-cult lives on! Doesn’t matter - the cult of personality – i.e., the wierwille-cult lives on in TWI and offshoots! < "original" and offshoot emojis) Whether in the corps or out of the corps you know that it doesn’t matter - the baloney is the same - whether you bought it at the stupid-market (PFAL) or at the factory where it was mass-produced (way corps program to make little wierwille clones). Scratch all the baloney after “Yes, that was the FOUNDATION” And you can scratch all the baloney after “I think in later years, and within the Corps” because Mike was never in the corps but he’s gotta do something to shift the blame off of the floundering president and “original” cult-leader. here's one recent grad who just manifested...yup - he jumped thru a hula hoop of PFAL-baloney The people that were the easiest to con were those who were inexperienced with the Bible and dealing with con artists Well, that’s a load bull-baloney. "us" ?!?!?! I need specifics – not your imaginative exaggerations of a world that does not exist beyond your thick head....how many are you talking about? and qualify too! define what is "sound"! let me see if I agree with your idea of sound. and qualify what is "good renewed mind" ! what makes it good? what makes it renewed? Metrics - I need metrics! Statistics - I need statistics and all the raw data from your "field studies". I'm calling your bluff !!!!! You throw this baloney out there EVERY TIME SOMEONE TARNISHES YOUR PRECIOUS LITTLE IDOL. You have no credibility – I don’t care what you say. No matter what story you talk about there's no telling what's true and what's not...because in your 20 years of coming to Grease Spot Cafe your posts often reflect someone who has no capacity to distinguish fact from fiction - I don't care if you swear on a stack of PFAL books - or on a pile of bull$hit that's taller than the stack of PFAL books.

“the Bible interprets itself” which is code for wierwille interprets the Bible for us. Mike explains what wierwille meant by “the Bible interprets itself” which is Mike re-writing PFAL for no one in particular. Makes me think of those ads that claim this product practically sells itself. Except the only one who supposedly bought it is “the salesman”.

There’s some wierwille doctrines that may be more problematic with the unintended consequences of how wierwille-followers put the theories into practice. Like the trichotomy view of humankind - ideally body , soul and spirit…I’ve noticed that wierwille was often presumptuous with his pet “doctrines” - his attitude was manipulative and became a template for how wierwille-followers should think and act in the context of evangelizing and counseling - more on this in a bit. just to clear the air, we’re not discussing a complicated surgical operation for separating conjoined twins. As a Christian, I’m of opinion it really doesn’t matter if one leans toward a trichotomy view or a dichotomy view as long as we interact with others in an appropriate biblical manner and have a Christlike attitude – whether evangelizing folks who are not Christian or counseling someone who is. And thinking sensibly – it’s probably best to leave it up to God as far as He’s the only one who really knows what’s going on inside a person. I know at times we might have a tendency to feel overconfident, assuming the Holy Spirit is leading us to push an idea. For all we know the Holy Spirit may have already been working in this person’s life and might even be active in their heart as we evangelize and/or counsel as a friend. Back when I was in TWI most of us had a cookie-cutter approach to evangelizing and counseling. The PFAL class was considered a guaranteed formula for resolving any problem. We believed the PFAL class was the best way to get someone born again. And once a person was a grad of the class in many one-on-one counseling situations a typical solution to propose would often be some pat answer from the PFAL class. Trouble with finances? – give money to God (i.e., the ministry) and God will bless you back with even more money. Don't like your Twig coordinator? Renew your mind. So-and-so mocks the law of believing? “Well, that’s because they’re a natural man - and we know they think the things of God are foolish.” In effect wierwille-followers play the part of the Holy Spirit - in judging who has spirit and how the person should be “handled”.

“The Bible interprets itself” is a deterministic belief . No other agency is needed to explain it - it is self-explanatory. Logically some ideas are easily communicated / understood if there is common ground - everyone knows what a human being is for example. But ancient documents written so long ago in other languages, other cultures, within other worldviews will need explanation and clarification for modern folks to get some idea of what they were talking about…wow wee wow - this session is like the Advanced Class of the NT canon thread Prophecy did not come by the will of man, yet they spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The human - unique and imperfect elements (writing style, cultural and worldview peculiarities) of Scripture indicates a collaborative effort. In other words, the meeting of “the wills”. God’s will and the will of each individual writer. That would be impossible in a deterministic universe. This apparently “freewheeling” universe seems even to be exemplified in the Godhead for in Luke 22:42 we read Jesus prayed not my will but thine be done.

and the Bibe can be erroneously interpreted too - like Bullinger's 4 crucified which wierwille stupidly parroted!

Welcome to Grease Spot, Charity ! I was in during the same time period and was left with the same disappointment from a cold clinical approach to Christianity. Are we twins? Actually a lot of folks were let down like that.

Mike, you so funny! Mike’s schtick reminds me of the Maxwell Smart’s “would you believe ?” routine – like a used car salesman who keeps lowering the cost of the car he’s trying to sell “would you buy it for this much?”

I think you’re projecting. I am not afraid of you believing a nonsensical idea. It’s a free country – praise the nonsensical idol of PFAL!!!! There’s nothing difficult about it It’s absurdity to the Advanced Class degree of pretentiousness rounded off to the nearest PFAL-in-the-Box !!!!!!! No. wierwille used the phrase to obfuscate the fact that HE was slipping in HIS interpretation of a passage – along with the subliminal idea that this is the only way this passage can be understood – see that’s how the Bible interprets itself. Now you’re attempting to further confuse everyone. If the Bible were a person interpreting (explaining) his/her self to YOU – it’s not an objective process – it’s an independent process from YOU interpreting the person; they’re doing it and NOT YOU. Do you read this stuff out loud to yourself before you post it? YOU are the one that is making all the fuss about an absolutely asinine idea! Mike, you say some really stupid things – that’s the real problem! You can’t seem to argue your way out of a paper bag. Language is used widely when conversing… Popeye ~ ~ ~ ~ For the folks at home, “following” this nonsense: Literal and figurative language is a distinction within some fields of language analysis, in particular stylistics, rhetoric, and semantics. Literal language uses words exactly according to their conventionally accepted meanings or denotation. Figurative (or non-literal) language uses words in a way that deviates from their conventionally accepted definitions in order to convey a more complicated meaning or heightened effect. Figurative language is often created by presenting words in such a way that they are equated, compared, or associated with normally unrelated meanings. Literal usage confers meaning to words, in the sense of the meaning they have by themselves, outside any figure of speech. It maintains a consistent meaning regardless of the context, with the intended meaning corresponding exactly to the meaning of the individual words. On the contrary, figurative use of language is the use of words or phrases that implies a non-literal meaning which does make sense or that could [also] be true. Aristotle and later the Roman Quintilian were among the early analysts of rhetoric who expounded on the differences between literal and figurative language. from: Literal and figurative language - Wikipedia

Have you ever wondered what are the practical consequences of viewing humanity as threefold beings versus twofold beings? According to trichotomy doctrine a person is incomplete if they are just body and soul. The Way International is not the only group that believes in the trichotomy view of human nature. But from what I remember when I was involved with TWI, this fomented a rather denigrating opinion of anyone who we thought was not a born-again Christian. Considering them as having only 2 of the 3 components – just body and soul – top TWI-leadership labeled them in a very derogatory phrase - “empties floating by”. And just to clear the air, we’re not discussing a complicated surgical operation for separating conjoined twins. As a Christian, I’m of opinion it really doesn’t matter if one leans toward a trichotomy view or a dichotomy view as long as we interact with others in an appropriate biblical manner and having a Christlike attitude – whether evangelizing folks who are not Christian or counseling someone who is. And thinking sensibly – it’s probably best to leave it up to God as far as He’s the only one who really knows what’s going on inside a person. I know at times we might have a tendency to feel overconfident, assuming the Holy Spirit is leading us to push an idea. For all we know the Holy Spirit may have already been working in this person’s life and might even be active in their heart right now as you speak to them. Back when I was in TWI most of us had a cookie-cutter approach to evangelizing and counseling. The PFAL class was considered a guaranteed formula for resolving any problem. We believed the PFAL class was the best way to get someone born again. And once a person was a grad of the class in many one-on-one counseling situations a typical solution to propose would often be some pat answer from the PFAL class. Trouble with finances? – give money to God (i.e., the ministry) and God will bless you back with even more money. Don't like your Twig coordinator? Renew your mind. Also, I’m not an advocate of “believers” taking on the role of a qualified counselor. There are legitimate folks out there – pastors, rabbis, clerics, trained counselors, and other professional mental health care personnel who are educated and experienced in helping people deal properly with certain complicated issues of life…But, for us "regular folks" whether evangelizing or helping a friend through a difficult situation – having the 2 great commandments – love God and neighbor – as your modus operandi should at least get everyone going in the right direction - which might even point to more help from qualified counselors. And when it comes right down to it, one could view human nature as trichotomy, dichotomy, or even a type of monism: existence monism there exists only a single thing, the universe, which can only be artificially and arbitrarily divided into many things…substance monism asserts that a variety of existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or substance. Substance monism posits that only one kind of substance exists, although many things may be made up of this substance, e.g., matter or mind…dual-aspect monism is the view that the mental and the physical are two aspects of, or perspectives on, the same substance…neutral monism believes the fundamental nature of reality to be neither mental nor physical; in other words it is "neutral". From: Monism - Wikipedia For considering which view is best – in the context of one person helping another – the goal should be to help the whole person. As far as what model best reflects human nature from a biblical point of view, I lean toward the dichotomy concept. Grudem notes in his Systematic theology , chapter 23, The Essential Nature of Man, pages 472ff : Scripture uses “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably: New International Version “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. John 12:27 Whereas in a very similar context in next chapter Jesus is said to be unsettled in the spirit: New International Version After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.” John 13:21 ~ ~ ~ ~ at death, Scripture says either the “soul” or the “spirit” departs: King James Bible And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. Genesis 35:18 New International Version Into your hands I commit my spirit; deliver me, LORD, my faithful God. Psalm 31:5 Man is said to be either “body and soul” or “body and spirit”: New International Version Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 New International Version hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. I Corinthians 5:5 And Paul said that purging ourselves from defilement of the soul or spirit takes care of the metaphysical part of our life: New International Version But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10 New International Version For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. Colossians 2:5 ~ ~ ~ ~ Since they appear to be synonymous, it is said that either soul or spirit can sin: New International Version Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. II Corinthians 7:1 New International Version and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I Corinthians 7:34 English Standard Version Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. Acts 17: 16 ~ ~ ~ ~ And note the transcendent / immanent Holy Spirit affirms with our spirit – it implies our mind knows: New International Version The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:16