T-Bone

Understood. I don’t know if you’ve read either of these books – but I think you might find some of what they talk about relatable: Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape: Hill, Jenna Miscavige, Pulitzer, Lisa: 9780062248480: Amazon.com: Books Educated: A Memoir: Westover, Tara: 9780399590504: Amazon.com: Books Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our surroundings and what they mean. It seems my perception of reality, TWI, the internet, etc., differs from yours. Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. How much of our online presence reflects those qualities depends on how much we stay true to ourselves in our social media interaction. Only a handful of Grease Spotters have met me in person at an organized gathering in Texas – but that still doesn’t vet me. I could have kept up the charade for such a short duration. I could be a consistent poser. So what? I’m not running for the office or selling anything…I don’t get out much – Grease Spot Café is one of the ways I get to socialize. Sorry – I have to disagree with you on this point…because I don’t believe the internet is an evil entity with a hidden agenda…this sounds like an Advanced Class session.

Speaking of hell - I remember our priest saying, “let us pray for the souls in hell”. Made me think God was a real meanie for putting them there – so we’re asking Him to cut them some slack...conflict resolution Wonder if there’s an annex for people who snore in movie theaters. Went to see Bladerunner 2049 – before the film started there was this guy near us explaining the original one to his date. I thought this was going to be an issue during the movie. But for the duration of the movie, he snored really loud. I didn’t think the movie was that boring.

Another straw man argument the Bible is coauthored - God inspired humans. whether one considers the Bible as a single author book or coauthored - it still needs to be interpreted!!!! what a goofball argument- the only upset hoopla is something you are projecting- you’re probably upset that you’ve worked on this angle for weeks…months …and still no one is buying it…oh well

“Scripture buildup” is totally bogus - it depends on what wierwille says is relevant- that’s how Bullinger conjured up 4 crucified - and wierwille copied Bullinger’s stupid trick. 4 crucified is just stupid! Do you ever wonder why you’ve lost credibility here? Hint: defending blatant error has something to do with it.

Yes - I agree that's why I said wierwille erroneously bastardized Bullinger's works erroneously = in a mistaken way; incorrectly; Synonyms: amiss, faultily, improperly bastardized = (of a version of something) lower in quality or value than the original form, typically as a result of the addition of new elements; SIMILAR: adulterate, corrupt, contaminate, weaken, dilute, spoil, taint, pollute, foul, defile, debase, degrade, devalue, depreciate

We can always assign this a new number Reason # 117 of why PFAL sucks 117. true devotees of PFAL become unscrupulous in their efforts to defend it I think you’re wrong in your mischaracterization of how students fell for wierwille’s con of the Bible interprets itself. He led us to believe if you follow some simple rules – that he got from Bullinger, you can’t go wrong. There’s a compound problem with wierwille’s plagiarism. He was inconsistent in following someone else’s ideas – sometimes ignoring a key point and sometimes mixing in his own stupid ideas. PFAL students ABSORBED RATHER THAN ANALYZED wierwille’s method for interpreting the Bible. In Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to the phrase “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible. I believe Bullinger got that part right. In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed then there is either no possible interpretation or the Bible must interpret itself. If you’ve ever studied logical fallacies, then it shouldn’t surprise you that wierwille’s premise offers PFAL students a false dilemma - also referred to as false dichotomy – it is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. Just pause for a moment and think about what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say, wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve. critical thinking schmitical thinking. The reason “Scripture interprets itself” is nonsensical – is because it implies no other agency is needed. Consider some definitions from the internet for “interpret”, “translate” and “interpreter”: Interpret: explain the meaning of information, words, or actions; translate orally or into sign language the words of a person speaking a different language. Translate: express the sense of (words or text) in another language; to express in more comprehensible terms: EXPLAIN, INTERPRET. Interpreter: responsible for facilitating communication between different language speakers by translating information from one language to another for easy comprehension. Note in all the above definitions there is an intermediary or go-between involved - a person who acts as a link between people of different languages. The ancient biblical manuscripts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. A translator of those texts is building a bridge to connect disparate people of another time, culture and language with people of today who speak English, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hindi, etc. I believe the phrase “scripture interprets itself” is something wierwille erroneously bastardized from Bullinger’s works. In Bullinger’s “How to Enjoy the Bible” the idea is expressed along the lines of these are the keys to approaching exposition of the Bible, paying attention to the verse, context, previous usage, etc. It’s a given that our cognitive skills are involved rather than expecting inanimate words on a page to do the job. It’s as if Bullinger was saying "To properly understand and to honestly teach what is the message of a certain passage this is HOW YOU should interpret the Bible". Neither Bullinger nor wierwille are the gold standard for interpreting the Bible! Another goofy interpretation principle Bullinger promoted and which wierwille copied was “scripture buildup” – and that’s how Bullinger came up with 4 crucified – and wierwille plagiarized that too! Maybe you need to reevaluate 4 crucified and a lot of the other suspect doctrines of wierwille and try to have an intellectually honest approach to Scripture instead of trying to insinuate we misunderstood what wierwille taught. What he taught was wrong – end of story!

Hi Charity, I’ve found there are two well-known models for dealing with grief and loss. One is from Elisabeth Kübler-Ross a Swiss-American psychiatrist and a pioneer in near-death studies. She theorized there were 5 stages of grief, but her studies were with people who were dying (terminally ill), not people who were grieving over the loss of a loved one. In her 1969 book “On Death and Dying” she proposed the 5 stages of grief and loss: 1. Denial and isolation 2. Anger 3. Bargaining 4. Depression 5. Acceptance I think there is some merit to her work although there’s a strong consensus among psychologists that people who are grieving over any kind of loss do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them. The other model is from George Bonanno. His research is noted for contradicting Kübler-Ross’ 5 stages of grief. As a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University, he conducted more than two decades of scientific studies on grief and trauma, which have been published in several papers of peer-reviewed journals in the field of psychology. His studies came out of several thousand subjects and included people who have suffered losses in the U.S. and cross-cultural studies in various countries around the world. His subjects suffered losses through war, terrorism, deaths of children, premature deaths of spouses, sexual abuse, childhood diagnoses of AIDS, and other potentially devastating loss events or potential trauma events – such as losing a job, or one of the parents losing custody of a child through divorce, loss of a romantic relationship, loss of a pet, losing faith in one’s religion. Bonanno’s findings indicate that natural resilience is a part of the human psyche, and that there are four possible paths one could take in dealing with grief and loss. The four trajectories are as follows: Resilience: "The ability of adults in otherwise normal circumstances who are exposed to an isolated and potentially highly disruptive event, such as the death of a close relation or a violent or life-threatening situation, to maintain relatively stable, healthy levels of psychological and physical functioning" as well as "the capacity for generative experiences and positive emotions". Recovery: When "normal functioning temporarily gives way to threshold or sub-threshold psychopathology (e.g., symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD), usually for a period of at least several months, and then gradually returns to pre-event levels". Chronic dysfunction: Prolonged suffering and inability to function, usually lasting several years or longer. Delayed grief or trauma: When adjustment seems normal but then distress and symptoms increase months later. Researchers have not found evidence of delayed grief, but delayed trauma appears to be a genuine phenomenon.” for more details on the above see Wikipedia on Grief and Wikipedia on George Bonanno…some other books I found helpful: https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinders-Gail-Sheehy/dp/0688006485 https://www.amazon.com/New-Passages-Mapping-Your-Across/dp/0345404459 https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380810336 ~ ~ ~ ~ we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report…be unapologetic - you do you cuz that seems to me it has managed to work out well so far in what you've shared here. ~ ~ ~ ~ Comparing experiences, strategies, therapies is important for the obvious relatable reasons – but I think we have to allow for our own uniqueness…individuality or we might set ourselves up for disappointment. I recall what might be considered my first “romantic kiss”. I was in the seventh grade…in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot. Classmates in the school yard can spread gossip almost as fast as announcements given over the PA. The word was out, a pretty Italian girl, Katherine thought I was cute. After being egged on by my friends we walked over to Katherine’s group…Like being in a car wreck I vaguely remember jumbled up bits and pieces …the sequence of words and physicality elude me…she was taller than me…as she leaned forward and lowered her head – her slight smile that revealed her braces changed to pursed lips…as our mouths touched I felt flushed like I was doing something forbidden in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot…I don’t recall any dreamy feelings, hearing a crescendo of music or any of the other stuff I’ve witnessed on TV or in the movies during a romantic kiss scene…one of those confusing and disappointing moments in life I guess…anyway…my point is Maybe we learn what to expect in grief from how it’s portrayed in movies and TV shows – the predictable five-stage process seems to be an often-used trope. Plots that use 1 of the 4 trajectories are unpredictable and exciting. For “survival techniques” I like to mix it up. Seeing how someone manages in real life or in a movie is helpful – sometimes I do want a template if I don’t know what to expect – maybe some guidelines. I also like to be encouraged - reminded we have something inside that’s really tough…an indomitable spirit…maybe grieving involves some other – unexpected feelings too – like relief, the worst is over…or even some positive unexpected mood shift – the joy of victory – surviving…building self-confidence…entertainment, books, music, art are good for escaping…sometimes they can be inspirational and offer some practical tips. ~ ~ ~ ~ There’s something relatable for survivors of a pseudo-Christian cult in the conversion of the apostle Paul. Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia Galatians 1 NIV - Paul, an apostle—sent not from men - Bible Gateway Saul (Paul) knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. But after the Lord Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – Paul had to take time to recover…process…reevaluate all he knew of the Scriptures…something was missing – Christ. We read in Acts 17 NIV - In Thessalonica - When Paul and his - Bible Gateway When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said… Paul being familiar with the Old Testament – was now looking at it with fresh eyes! For folks who are still into God, Christ, and the Bible after surviving a pseudo-Christian cult, they owe it to themselves to give their faith a fair shake and work on removing the pseudo-Christian-cult-colored-glasses. Reexamine the Scriptures and doctrines with fresh eyes. Grease Spot Café is cool for that. Notice the wide range of beliefs and opinions of the clientele. ~ ~ ~ ~ On a personal note, I’ve mentioned before how some personal issues and the TWI-lifestyle might not be a good fit. I’ve battled with depression before I got involved with TWI. But it wasn’t until a few years after I left TWI – at my wife’s urging that I went to a psychiatrist. One of the best decisions I ever made. Love and peace T-Bone

Ah, so you got that off the internet…so you do trust the internet for some things I’m familiar with Haidt’s work but I don’t come away with such a dismal outlook like you do…he gets into social psychology – studying stuff like people developing mistrust toward others and becoming divisive…his stuff seems like constructive criticism to me. I don’t interpret him as a prophet of doom like you do. Confirmation bias is problematic – maybe you’re understanding social media from your own negative experiences and it appears my positive experiences don’t matter in your book I know extreme anxiety and fear can distort perceptions and lead to irrational decisions – makes me wonder why you are relentless in disparaging my judgments. Don’t get your hopes up that I’m going to jump onto your bandwagon…I’m done with mindlessly absorbing info like I did in TWI I rely on observations, cognitive skills, and experiences…maybe the only thing you and I have in common is we were involved in the same cult. To what extent our experiences were different - I don't know - but that would probably lead to some difference in opinions and judgments. you are very persistent in your gloomy “report” and seem bound and determined to convince me that I should doubt my observations, cognitive skills, and experiences. Evidently you think you are the more enlightened one and perhaps you think it's your mission to save me from ignorance. I don't like it when people are condescending...reminds me of TWI. If social media is so bad – why are you here talking about how bad it is?

oh, great I've got something to look forward to -

oh, how romantic - two posters passing in cyberspace ok that was another attempt to be funny - not coming on to you...just thought you needed a little more friendly support...like any charity case... "oh my God he won't stop !!!!! where's a moderator when you need one?" love and peace T-Bone

My doc recommended Saw Palmetto. I get it over the counter at CVS or at Sam's. Been taking it for a couple of years - - and it really helps! doc said the only alternative he knows of currently is the "Roto-Rooter" surgery. yikes! taking Saw Palmetto is fine by me.

Ok…just thought a little friendly fun might make you feel more comfortable and welcomed.

Communication has come a long way since oral tradition…is scribbling words / symbols on a cave wall or papyrus natural? Granted - every mode of communication has limitations when compared to face-to-face. What are viable options for two people who know each other are separated by distance? Let’s reconfigure the analysis to consider more factors of how we all got to doing things in an unnatural way. Have you ever read “Guns, Germs, and Steel” by Jared Diamond? It is a trans-disciplinary non-fiction book. Fascinating book attempting to explain what the influence of geography, genetics, technology had on shaping societies and migration. One could argue either way - was it all a natural development or unnatural. A simpler concept is thinking about the impact of evolutions/revolutions in transportation, technology, communication, etc…families are spread out - across the country- across the globe…instead of me marrying a high school sweetheart from New York or the girl next door, I married my WOW sister - she’s from Texas - we met in DC. After 46 years we’re still married - just not married to TWI anymore I don’t think ALL my interactions in a cult were unreal. Certainly me trying to be a sales rep for PFAL was make-believe preaching. But my feelings for my WOW sister/future wife are not fictitious. I do remember putting on Twig-face for Twig. My wife used to get on me about being sweet to everyone at Twig but being a royal a$$-hole to wife and kids when Twig is gone. Now Post-TWI I try to be less of an a$$-hole to my family - and if I have any strength left over I will try to be sorta nice to strangers.I’ve got new priorities now And my wife has the patience of a saint I could see Twig being similar to the Internet- in that just like being a poser in a pseudo-Christian cult , one could be a poser on the Internet. I wonder if there is such a thing as inadvertently gaslighting. Maybe you don’t intend to manipulate others to question reality…to doubt the validity of their thoughts, their perception, whatever…but that does appear to be what you're trying to do - considering your challenges, questions, opinions and how people respond to you…I’m not questioning your intentions as much as I’m wondering if this kind of interaction is what you wanted.

I don’t know - I’m a terrible prognosticator - and apparently you are too

Yes - that I have a really silly side my attempt to be funny did not mean for you to take it seriously- just playing off your post of not being sure what was meant hopefully you weren’t offended

12 years in TWI - yeah, I know how isolation works. I don't mean to egg you on - but you come across as extremely paranoid in these posts. I don't know how you expect me to respond or what I should say. If you're that paranoid about the internet, open forums, Grease Spot, TWI, feeling like you are not free due to strings attached - then why are you posting here?

I'm sorry - I forgot to read your mind...and I assume you'll want me to ask for permission to read your mind

uhm - you presented a HYPOTHICAL question...didn't expect you to morph it into a bigger philosophical argument. why didn't you ask all that in the first place? so you're take away from me answering a hypothetical question is that privacy has little value to me? Are you trying to out-a$$-hole me?

so, everybody - get it straight - if I say Charity is a poster child - I don't mean she epitomizes a specified quality or cause...I mean she's new at posting on Grease Spot.

Damn Rocky !!!!! I love it !!!! Honey Badger kicks Shingles a$$ ! Honey Badger doesn't care Didn't know all that...A friend of mine who is an avid hunter, would tell this old city boy stories about honey badgers and fisher ferrets and just blow my mind...I'm gonna stay a city boy in the safety and security of my favorite You Tube watching chair

I think you’re too broad in your brush strokes. How threats are perceived is relative. If I put myself in the frame of mind I had when I was in TWI – the internet would be the greater threat – I’d probably say it was the devil’s playground…worldly. But being free of TWI’s manipulative influence and having some confidence in my ever-developing cognitive skills, I read, watch, listen to stuff that I choose and process it the way I choose. I see TWI and any other con game as a threat if someone is not aware of their tricks. Glad you approve TWI is it’s own little world…you have been very clear that you hate it. I don’t understand the question if all our conversations were uploaded to the internet I doubt if it would change our relationships. BECAUSE my wife and I have nothing to hide. I’m really not afraid of the internet finding out I’m just as much an a$$-hole at home as I am on the internet - and my wife has the patience of a saint Do you think that it was something I did on the weekend for fun? Free speech as I understand it is about the liberty to express ideas, info, opinions in various relationships – politicians at rallies, political commentaries, pastors in a church, musicians /artists/ poets / writers with their audience, websites online users to online users, etc. Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. The right to freedom of expression has been recognized as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations. Many countries have constitutional law that protects free speech. Terms like free speech, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression are used interchangeably in political discourse. However, in a legal sense, the freedom of expression includes any activity of seeking, receiving, and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. From: Freedom of speech - Wikipedia And you are correct - The Way is not a government...though the board of directors might disagree with me

The internet like free speech is a double edged sword. One should exercise caution and cognitive skills. Some issues need to be addressed IN CONTEXT otherwise discussions will be vague useless and some might tend to pontificate diagnose and prescribe inappropriately

It looks to me like you lash out at everyone. Cyberspace is not the real world. Can’t say how TWI is now - but in my time TWI operated in its own little world. I remember it colored the way I looked at the real world.

Some reasons why I’m here: to make up for the 12 years I unknowingly supported and facilitated a harmful and controlling cult; it’s good therapy for me; I’d like to help other way corps escape and/or sort out the wierwille toxins.

It would really help to clarify things if you would stop being enigmatic. Instead of being ambiguous – be specific. If you’re deliberately being vague to skirt around what I said – please stop. This seems childish…I believe one of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose. Your talk of certain people getting to leave TWI without restrictions – seems confusing to me – it implies - - envy? Do you see yourself as lacking the freedom to choose? Your cryptic message seems forced to me – in that it is produced with effort…affected or unnatural…that is a choice on your part… and to say that is “not in the realm of possibility to ignore” is a perception that you have chosen…and besides all that I have no idea what you are talking about.