T-Bone

I think what made LCM the perfect candidate for TWI presidency was he mimicked wierwille to a T. Except what he lacked in charisma he made up for in stony-cold-hearted-callousness to the Nth degree. I remember one corps night LCM commenting on Special Olympic athletes referring to them as freaks of nature. Yup – he really said that – I swear on our daughter’s trisomy 21. She was born after we left TWI. I can’t even imagine what hell she would have had to endure with parents following the dispassionate dictatorship of a pseudo-Christian cult leader. She has won several gold and bronze medals in various events over the years…I just have to say Special Olympians could teach that Jock-turned-cult-leader a thing or two about teamwork and real sportsmanship . I’ve seen Special Olympians stop mid-stride in a race to turn and help another athlete who tripped. As Christians we’re all on the same team – and Jesus Christ is our player-coach… and yet…and yet…and yet… I don’t know how many times I’ve heard LCM go off on a rant about those bastard-children and idolators in Christian groups who don’t have the rightly-divided Word and don’t even worship the one true God. ~ ~ ~ ~ You’re living in LaLa Land if you think it would have made much difference if Walter C was president. Walter would have been nothing more than a sock puppet – made from wierwille’s dirty old socks. He would have been controlled by those who are dedicated to keeping the lie-support system functioning for their idol wierwille. Read Penworks’ book Undertow and you’ll find out how Walter caved to wierwille’s pressure so that one of those “expanded translations according to usage” would line up with his own weird ideology. Imagine if Walter was president of TWI. Would he have the ballz to correct anything? “Hi, it’s me your new prez Reverend Wally C – just wanted to give you all a heads-up – since we are a research ministry, we’re going to correct a lot of the error that was promulgated in PFAL – starting off with Doctor’s teaching on the Greek word πρός [ pros ] in John 1:1 . Doctor said it meant ‘together with yet distinctly independent of’ and Doctor explained it as simply Jesus Christ was only in God’s foreknowledge but NOT actually with God. We’re going to revise that to reflect the accuracy of Koine Greek so it literally means Jesus Christ was in close proximity to God…oh and by the way - just so you know wierwille wasn’t a real doctor either.”

say, I remember a company the Re@l Cle@n Window company or something like that...Charlie J would train or send someone out to train people how to - ready for this - clean a window...and then you get these invoice pads with Re@l Cle@n Window company at the top...and each window cleaner would send a percentage of their profits to Charlie J...a weird business model - sounds like The Way International's.

I’ve got an idea for a movie title and tag line: The Cain Mutiny it’s CF&S regurgitated … …and X-rated

great post, Twinky !

wierwille’s teaching may sound plausible – and it could have been divine invitro fertilization. Personally, I tend to shy away from speculating on such details when none are given in Scripture. How did God create the universe? What raw materials did He need? He simply created something out of nothing. In my opinion, wierwille tended to put God in a box and God can only work within those limitations. How should we go about explaining the miracles of the Bible? What was involved in Lazarus’ resurrection – he had been dead for 4 days, embalmed with spices and wrapped in burial strips in his tomb? What was involved to raise Jesus from the dead and change his body into something glorious and eternal? In Genesis 3, I understand the seed of the woman refers to her offspring…but who knows – what you’re saying might work too – Mary did give her consent – she said “be it unto me according to thy Word” The only “problem” I see is that you touch upon several deep subjects – and we may find ourselves going all over the map to properly address each topic. You could start a topic or topics in doctrinal forum. I mentioned in my earlier post I started one on Human Nature and the Fall. On that thread I have a few posts addressing if humankind is a trichotomy or a dichotomy…linguistically – many of the biblical writers treated soul and spirit as synonymous (see my post here ) Also, I’m not as dogmatic as I used to be in TWI when it comes to the Holy Spirit and the church. wierwille taught the holy spirit given to a Christian is separate from the Holy Spirit = God. Scripturally I can argue that the Holy Spirit – God – comes to dwell in each believer – and The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts / abilities as He sees fit…Your thread How does God work in us was a fresh look at the Holy Spirit – I love that thread! It so refreshing to get out of the cookie-cutter mentality of TWI – where we were all instructed to conceive of God in a certain way – wierwille’s way…and experience the Holy Spirit a certain way – wierwille’s way.

I figured out wierwille was a phony shortly after I left - without the internet

I'm done arguing with your faulty assumptions uh huh

Thanks for the clarification and I think I do understand your point of view a little clearer now. And I wanted to follow up and reiterate a few things. Conspiracies does not always imply a mastermind, a master plan or a well thought out strategy. When I mentioned my fascination with the JFK assassination one of the things I learned was a conspiracy can be as simple as 2 or 3 people secretly plotting to bring about a certain result. Besides the Warren Commission there were other investigations. Matter of fact the final report by a select house committee to investigate assassinations said Kennedy’s assassination was “probably the result of a conspiracy.” in my opinion probably 2 of the best books on the subject is “The Last Investigation” by Gaeton Fonzi, and “JFK and the Unspeakable” by James Douglass. Even if one is not that interested in the story - I think the books are almost like a tutorial on using critical thinking to sift through facts, evidence, eyewitnesses, surrounding events, the tendency to cover for one’s ineptness, etc. When the Zapruder film was first broadcast on TV in the mid 70s the public shock of seeing the “head snap” which indicated the shot came from a different direction than the book depository led to another investigation. As an adult I’ve been to the 6th Floor museum a couple of times. Also being somewhat familiar with firearms and ballistics - hunting, target shooting and plinking - I’ve come to the conclusion there had to be a 2nd shooter involved. Even if one wants to limit the analysis to what is obvious - it was a conspiracy of 2 people. My point in bringing this up again is to say I agree with you on the fact that the Internet and the information/digital age in many respects has overshadowed or eclipsed real / traditional relationships. Granted - Unless one wants to become a hermit - there’s going to be a lot of info and noise to sift through. But there should also be real world interaction involved (my mention of seeing the head snap and being familiar with the effects of bullets being fired. I agree social media for many folks is a poor substitute for belonging in a relationship. It can be just as bad as being in a harmful and controlling cult like TWI if one does not engage cognitive skills. I don’t think it’s as daunting a task as you seem to make it, because I am not pressured by a cult to submit to groupthink or be ostracized. And I still have enough social interaction with family , friends , neighbors, community programs with our daughter to keep in touch with real life. I don’t mean to be nosy or assume you’re restricted to only an internet perspective on life. So - guess I agree with you - the Internet can be a bad thing to fulfill a real need - I disagree with you saying it makes wierwille and LCM look tame. Mainly because I don’t give the Internet that much power over my life like I did in TWI. In psychology cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory info and the toll it can take on our minds. I’m not in TWI anymore. I don’t have to listen to some pigheaded pontificator telling me what to read, think, do. I’m not sure what to make of your statement “The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not” so I have nothing to say to that. And I feel like we keep going round and round the same issues for no apparent reason

Hey all, if we’re still discussing seed of the serpent – just wanted to say I’ve been bugged for a long time about wierwille’s questionable connection of the unforgiveable sin with the seed of the serpent. To me, there’s many issues – for now, I’ll just mention two: 1. It is doubtful that the seed of the serpent – being born again of the wrong seed is actually a thing. Whether it is an actual spiritual seed (whatever that is) or some genetic mutation - there are no Scripture references to support it directly – there’s only allusions, like in John 8:44 , Ye are of your father the devil. Theologians as far back as Augustine have interpreted John 8:44 figuratively – that Jesus’ enemies were children of the devil by imitation. A similar figurative interpretation is held by many modern theologians like Albert Barnes, Matthew Poole, F.L. Godet, H.A. Ironside, William Kelly, R.C.H. Lenski, Arthur W. Pink, J.C. Ryle, R.V.G. Tasker, and W.E. Vine ( see also the free online resource Bible Hub commentaries of John 8:44 for some other helpful commentaries ). 2. Biblical specificity of how to commit the sin are somewhat vague: Matthew 12 NIV (biblehub.com), Mark 3 NIV (biblehub.com), Luke 12 NIV (biblehub.com). Usually when Scripture forbids an action there is little room for doubt on what the specific rules are - You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; Exodus 20: 4, 5 In the orange book PFAL, chapter 21, The Unforgiveable Sin, after explaining there are two seeds mentioned in Genesis 3:15 ,wierwille says on page 319: …let us take a hypothetical John Doe. He is born of body and soul, a natural man. He has no spiritual seed in him. When this man of body and soul confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believes that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10: 9, 10), he is born again with God’s seed (Christ) in him, John Doe is body, soul and spirit with the love of God and eternal life. However, there is another possibility for John. Rather than confessing Jesus as Lord, he believes the Devil is the true god. Then John Doe, a man of body and soul, is born again of the seed of the serpent. He is born of seed, and seed cannot be removed. Because this seed cannot be removed, it is an unforgivable sin. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ (Shameless plug: speaking of body, soul, and spirit, I started a thread back in October > Human nature and the Fall and I’m always interested in the viewpoints of others – come on – it’ll be fun !!!! ) Some of the material I have looked at describe blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as a defiant irreverence and there are numerous interpretations on what that means and if it can still be committed since the days when Jesus Christ walked the earth: What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org Blasphemy - Wikipedia What is Blasphemy? Unforgivable Sin Against the Holy Spirit (biblestudytools.com) What Is the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the Unforgivable Sin? (christianity.com) 11 Bible verses about Blasphemy, Against The Holy Spirit (knowing-jesus.com) What every Catholic should know: The Six Sins against the Holy Spirit - Catholic For Life Can a Christian Blaspheme the Holy Spirit? | Desiring God ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion the subject of the unforgiveable sin is debatable in many respects. I have a few Christian counseling books on the shelf and the one observation I’ve found in several is that if a Christian worries that they may have committed the unforgiveable sin that concern is probably a good indication that they haven’t. ~ ~ ~ ~ The framework of wierwille’s fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism supported the assumption that in certain situations there was a LITERAL CONNECTION between the spiritual world to the physical world – “certain situations” would always be contingent upon wierwille’s signature intuition – in other words, if he felt it was convenient to support his idea. This is evident in how he explained the new birth. I Peter 1:23 says “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.” wierwille said this referred to a LITERAL imperishable seed. However, to me it seems Peter’s image hearkens back to the parable of the sower in Mark 4 , Jesus said in verse 14 the seed is The Word. This parable is a metaphor representing the various reactions to The Word of God. In this allegory The Word is like a potent vessel of nature – holding the entire intelligent blueprint for life. Seeds can lie dormant for ages before the conditions are ripe for them to burst into life. The conditions are ripe in Mark 4:20 where the seed is sown on good soil, a person hears the word, accepts it, and produces a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown…The new birth of I Peter 1:23 is NOT brought about by a LITERAL seed – that is, the new birth is NOT produced in the same way as a physical birth. The Word of God lives and abides forever and the life it introduces believers to is eternal also. The seed is a symbol for the Word of God. ~ ~ ~ ~ For someone like wierwille who boasted of the great accuracy and integrity of the Bible and his in-depth analysis of it as well as his supposedly great experience in discerning of spirits and in casting out devil spirits – he offered very little details on exactly how one would commit the unforgiveable sin and get born again of the wrong seed. In my opinion this is one of the most questionable and treacherous doctrines of wierwille. The session on the unforgivable sin was already pulled from the PFAL class proper by the time I first took PFAL in 1974 - and was only available for viewing sometime later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. it was observed the grad followed the instructions to speak in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while... We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that it was a doctrine fraught with ambiguity and could cause psychological stress and have some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot Café someone shared of a PFAL grad they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines! And though the session on the unforgiveable sin and being born again of the wrong seed was not technically part of the foundational class on PFAL – it practically takes center stage in the Advanced Class on PFAL. My wife and I took the Advanced Class in 1978. Men and women were divided up and put in smaller Twig-size groups reflecting The Way Tree hierarchy organizational structure – so my wife was in a small Twig-size group of all women – and I was in a Twig of all men. One day my wife got in an argument with the Twig coordinator of her group who insisted that in order to commit the unforgivable sin and be born again of the devil’s seed you had to kneel at a Satanic altar and do something along the lines of pledging your allegiance to Satan. My wife stood her ground and argued that wierwille never mentioned any such specific details . This is a perfect example of followers parroting wierwille and in some instances adding more confusion to an already dubious doctrine as it is passed down through the ranks of TWI. The argument between my wife and the coordinator didn’t stop at that Twig-level. It went up the Way Tree – all the way to the top – wierwille. This disagreement happened to coincide with three 8th corps guys who had “gone rogue” (LCM’s words) on their research papers – apparently, they had ventured off TWI’s bedrock of theology which is PFAL and in effect challenged the very core of wierwille's thought process. The trickle-down-high-volume-reprimand that rained down on all of us later that evening was an attempt to kill two challenges with one group scolding – wierwille’s and LCM’s tirade can be summed up in four words - do not question leadership…a few more details about this are mentioned on another thread here and here …In retrospect – this was probably a huge red flag I should have paid attention to – The Way Tree is a culture of dogmatism. ~ ~ ~ ~ Comparing apples to oranges - I think there’s probably more scriptural basis to diagnose levels of demonic influence than there is to assert there’s such a thing as being born again of the seed of the serpent…I got into this on another thread in February of this year – my post was a comprehensive perspective endeavoring to integrate the biblical data with modern psychology – with some wiggle room – see my post > here ~ ~ ~ ~ here's a few other links for thought – I leave it up to your cognitive skills – FYI some of these are really out-there in my opinion: What is the Serpent Seed doctrine? | GotQuestions.org Serpent seed - Wikipedia What Is Serpent DNA? QAnon Illuminati Theory Allegedly Influenced CA Dad To Kill Children | YourTango The Seed of the Serpent: New Briefing – Dr. Chuck Missler – Koinonia House (khouse.org) referent identification - Who is the serpent's seed in Genesis 3:15? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange Bible Q | Who is the seed of the serpent in Genesis 3:15? The Seed of the Serpent Today - The Pharisees - The Serapeum 37. THE SERPENT SEED DOCTRINE (scripturetruthministries.com)

wait ! where are you going?

Outstanding! more revelations! thank you!

another incredible gift ! thank you ! once more I am more or less wordless to some indescribable speechless degree

thank you for this incredible gift! I am wordless...more or less

Serving two masters is a dilemma If we get rid of the golden idol – which is wierwille…there goes our cash cow...oh decisions, decisions, decisions...gonna drive me mashugana

For someone like so-and-so here who usually talks so authoritatively about what God knows, intends, and what God can and cannot do – I like the chicken-$hit way he dodges around explaining his or wierwille’s concept of God that's some next level bull-$hit...impressed the hell out of me anyway

Well jeepers , you must have special cyber-peepers…you sure know how to act like a creeper...well, at least you're good at something Ahh so what you’re REALLY saying is you’re concerned about the damage to your little idol wierwille. Relax. It doesn’t REALLY make a difference to your faith. I mean, you forked over $100 to take the new PFAL Today…so don’t worry your little icon of toxic waste appears to be doing just fine…bless all those little old idolatrous hearts.

God is spirit and can only talk to what He is - spirit. Angels and demons are spirits. They can talk directly to humans – because our old man nature is trained by the physical world to hear spirits. Man, you can really – and I mean really screw things up! Good job! I'll sit this one out ...you go on without me...you often do

Learn to read what’s written! I’ve accused no one of being a troll…I’ve said people can ACT like a troll. Learn how to speak gooder English “making your anti-idolatry uncomfortable” what the fvck is that? Let’s clear the air. Am I one to idolize wierwille? That’s a big fat fvcking NO ! Do YOU idolize wierwille? Hell, yeah you do!!!! Does it make me feel uncomfortable? That’s a big fat fvcking NO ! Does it make you uncomfortable…upset and drives you to lash out with personal insults and gobbledygook arguments when I criticize your idol? OBVIOUSLY IT DOES ! What’s with hiding under a bridge? You're freakin' an anonymous wierwille / PFAL flunky hiding out in cyberspace You regurgitate wierwille / PFAL nonsense for a spell then take off…wow wee wow big brave deluded wierwille/PFAL flunky. What freakin’ Corps superiority techniques are you talking about? I was taught the same bull$hit religious pseudo-Christian nonsense as you aka PFAL…that was the way corps curriculum oh, enraged one! The secret to way corps controlling others was to out-PFAL non-corps by our mastery of PFAL and to rely on TWI’s hierarchy power structure – all this is the brainchild of – - - - yep – you guessed it your idol wierwille. You sure do protest a lot when people complain about troll activity. I wonder why? Too close for comfort? If I was still in the way corps, I would be defending wierwille / PFAL a lot better than you do…you twist and reinterpret an already screwed up bundle of bull$hit – if wierwille were still alive teaching the Advanced Class he’d relegate you to the junk table under suspicion of impersonating wrong-seedless grapes of wrath. It seems to me your job is to degrade others who expose wierwille and PFAL for the worthless pack of lies it is – YOU evidently can’t handle the truth!

So, others have agreed that you are badly deluded – no surprise there Not just run-of-the-mill sin like most honest decent people – wierwille had life-dominating sins! His behavior was reprehensible! A life-dominating sin is when the unrepentant sinner is a slave to certain sinful behavior. Hence, in the Bible a repeat offender would be labeled a thief, a liar, an adulterer, etc. wierwille’s aberrant behavior fell into several categories – to name a few he was an unabashed plagiarist which made him a liar and a thief, he was also a prolific adulterer, sexual molester, and drunkard. Laws were broken. People were traumatized. Families were hurt. Legitimate published authors lost income and recognition. Shame on you – you knew of his sins and you saw how it damaged people – and what do you do about it? you defend him and make excuses for him. You want to give him a free pass! Shame on you! Here's what you seek to do about it...you defend him and make excuses for him . and you run away when Grease Spotters call you out for wanting to give him a free pass so what?!?! Quantify and qualify how he helped others. How many ? what data do you have to support your claim? Your argument is untenable! To hell with the bathwater - wierwille’s PFAL baby should have been aborted – state’s laws permitting of course - since it was not a viable fetus – screwed up mish mash doctrine with nonsense like 4 crucified, the Bible interprets itself, the law of believing that even God has to submit to. < crazy-a$$ nonsense A delusion is a false fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence. Who is the deluded one? With YOUR repetitive mantra of wierwille/PFAL is good – YOU are unwilling to morally respond to the overwhelming evidence of wierwille’s aberrant behavior – which YOU have admitted YOU KNEW ABOUT ! …wierwille the unabashed plagiarist, liar and thief, prolific adulterer, sexual molester, and drunkard. Laws were broken. People were traumatized. Families were hurt. Legitimate published authors lost income and recognition...YOU are CHOOSING to ignore or minimize these things - what's up with that? It's like you're his defense attorney! You need to try harder Listen to what others say develop better communication skills – what you do now isn’t working – you keep blaming others for your bad messaging

Good point ! And if angels and demons are also spirit – how is it they can talk directly to humans?

Phony baloney = a cheap imitation of a fake

One doesn’t have to be a troll to act like one…but there’s also the Forrest Gump principle to consider: stupid is as stupid does. Meaning whether or not one is a dumb-a$$ troll is revealed by their actions Some people LOVE to be argumentative merely to elicit a response from others. A sure sign of someone acting like a troll is their attempts to disrupt a thread This is called projecting - a wierwille-defender gets extremely upset when others criticize his idol When contrarians are cornered they attempt to bluff their way out of an untenable position and often resort to making personal attacks.

it’s possible one could be unaware that they have been acting like a troll…for 20 years