T-Bone

Superman’s Superstring theory I hadn’t picked up the bass in a while…getting old…have some arthritis in my hands – from injuries and carrying heavy tool bags. The other day I was repeating a simple blues scale and my fret hand got tired really quick. Then I had this silly idea for a Superman comic. I imagined a bass guitar with strings made from a composite of kryptonite and nickel-plated steel – these ‘superstrings’ gave it an unearthly tone. It was dubbed the K-Bass. The instrument was designed by Reginald “Fieldy” Arvizu of Korn who probably is from another planet anyway. Superman tried to play the K-Bass but he could barely press the string to the fret and his plucking fingers would quickly blister. He had a notion...aka Superman’s Superstring Theory: wear lead-lined gloves when playing the K-Bass.

The Romaines of the Day

An 11-bidet salute, recognized in many nations as one of the highest honors rendered to an experienced installer

The 321st Annual Bidet Convention: Kiddie Section

And these sign-ups shall follow those that believe PFAL: there shall be seven new students for the next class

What the hell is OldSkool’s trip? I don’t know - so he didn’t get that amp that goes up to eleven – I didn’t get that man-eating bass either Merry Christmas OldSkool and to all Grease Spotters

You’re one of those thread-killers aren’t you Yikes - the second wave of heckling has already started There’s nothing like good comedy and this is nothing like it let's agree to disagree

Now where have I heard that complaint before? You probably didn’t like the attributions to books and threads either. I know your type

Thanks Nathan!

no - I thought it was something you came up with - maybe you can post a You Tube clip on this thread - I won't mind

thanks for posting Rocky !

The Way International – the Christ-free religious substitute… …just another challenging counterfeit In the final analysis of The Way International it may come down to one of two options. Either TWI was a genuine Christian ministry, and it eventually went downhill, or it was false from the get-go. If you’re familiar with my other posts on the subject, you already know my opinion – it was a sham from the beginning. My judgement is not based on divining wierwille’s motives or intent – I’ll leave that up to God. My reasoning is grounded in the common knowledge of his written and recorded works, my 12 years of involvement in classes, programs and projects created by wierwille or sanctioned by him. I afford wierwille a very narrow benefit of a doubt in terms of guessing at his motivations or intentions – was it criminal, delusional, a combination of several things, “the best laid plans of mice and men” as the saying goes. In a court of law, how does a prosecutor prove that a defendant’s state of mind was to intentionally commit a crime? Many suspects make it easy for the prosecutor by fully confessing to the police. A competent investigator will ask the right questions to nail down the suspect’s intent at the time he committed the crime. What if there is no confession? The prosecutor normally attempts to convince the judge or the jury of a defendant’s criminal intent through implication. They will re-examine all the known circumstances, the accused’s behavior and spoken or written words as well as testimony from witnesses who can attest to the defendant’s actions and perceived mental state at the time of the crime. *See footnotes below for hyperlinks on delusional, criminal intent you can tell by the title of this thread, my assumption is that – for whatever reasons – wierwille started a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult. I did not come to that belief lightly. It comes in the wake of 36 years of reflecting on my 12 years of TWI-experiences, observations, reassessing his written and recorded works, programs and projects created by wierwille or sanctioned by him. I know I am not alone in doing this. There’s been many folks who have posted here at Grease Spot Café besides published works like Amazon.com: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International: 9780997874709: Edge, Charlene L, Ruth Mullen, Duane Stapp: Books The Cult That Snapped by Karl Kahler | Goodreads Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape: Skedgell, Kristen: 9780972002196: Amazon.com: Books These books make great gifts to yourself and others !!!!! They are relevant and provide clarity and much needed answers especially if you're still in TWI, thinking about leaving, wondering if you should leave...or you've left and you're trying to unpack the intellectual and emotional baggage from the experience. Just as a matter of survival I think many folks who leave a harmful and controlling cult become somewhat of a profiler to reassess a cult-leader’s psychological and behavioral characteristics – the cult-leader’s modus operandi if you will. I think that’s a natural and therapeutic process to identify, evaluate, make repairs, and reinforce one’s intellectual and emotional defenses against the deceptive inroads used by a cult-leader. Most arguments used to defend wierwille / PFAL / TWI go along the tenuous lines of referencing the 1942 audible promise that God made to wierwille [ see thread WordWolf started concerning the failure of the 1942 promise ] and that with the help of God’s guidance he was divinely authorized to plagiarize the works of Christian authors and ‘accurize’ it all in the process. There are numerous threads in About The Way and Doctrinal that shoot innumerable holes in that nonsense – you’re on your own to discover and/or review them. My purpose with this thread is to show you the very real possibility that creating a pseudo-Christian cult is not only feasible since it has been done before but in all probability, it will keep happening - until it doesn’t. [I’m using Nathan_Jr’s statistical formula “it works every time 60 % of the time” ] ~ ~ ~ ~ Religious cults are nothing new – and it’s been pointed out that Christianity started out as a cult – a religious sect. One can find a number of ways to define a cult - see Cult - Wikipedia . For this thread and elsewhere on Grease Spot Café, I’m going with The Way International being a harmful and controlling cult. It can also be described as a pseudo-Christian cult since there is a fake Jesus Christ centerpiece – “The Word” which in PFAL, wierwille designated as taking the place of the absent Christ. [ see thread OldSkool started The Absent Christ?] What is “The Word”? What does that simple buzzword mean to a TWI-follower? [ see buzzwords wayspeak , cults and social cohesion , the old wierwille switcheroo , ] It’s NOT The Bible, any translation or version. It is wierwille’s plagiarized, mangled, self-aggrandizing reinterpretation of select Christian works and Scripture. TWI-followers are under the false assumption that wierwille is correctly interpreting the Word of God and that notion imbues everything wierwille said or did with Christ-like authority. But it doesn’t take a theologian or scholar to see through wierwille’s smoke and mirrors. One just needs to remove the cult-mindset they adopted – the power that mindset holds over one’s cognitive skills varies according to years of involvement, responsibilities, personal makeup, etc. If you haven’t read the Why PFAL sucks thread yet – check it out – as of this writing, there’s some 119 and counting reasons why it’s so horrible - plus all the subsets – as noted by Grease Spotters. That thread is a great exercise in the Socratic method used on a lot of Grease Spot threads - a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between Grease Spotters, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions. It helps to identify and eliminate the dubious theories, logical fallacies, contradictions, eclectic unbiblical sources, and flat-out Scripture twisting in the Power For Abundant Living class – which is the mainstay of The Way International…You will find some posts by wierwille-sympathizers and wierwille-defenders on the Why PFAL sucks thread – which I think is great – because it affords everyone a chance to have some hands-on experience of using cognitive skills. Truth, logic, and facts will stand up to the toughest scrutiny. Lies, error, and absurd nonsense will not. ~ ~ ~ ~ The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them. 7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. 17 “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet? 20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken. 25 “‘I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will make them and the places surrounding my hill a blessing.[a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the Lord, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. 30 Then they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them and that they, the Israelites, are my people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’” Ezekiel 34 Ezekiel mentions the leaders…kings…priests…prophets…who were frauds cheating the flock for personal gain. This stands in contrast to the Lord as Shepherd See also Psalm 23 and Isaiah 40 and of course there's John 10: “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” 19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” 21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” 22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. 40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus. John 10 The threats that Jesus mentions in Matthew 23 seem analogous to the abuse of power mentioned in Ezekiel 34. ~ ~ ~ ~ Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry. 3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’[b]” 5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]” 9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; 11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]” 12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]” 13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time. Luke 4 I think one of the reasons this account was recorded was to alert Christians to the fact that the devil knows the Scriptures too and will try to use them to undermine our faith. wierwille’s extensive plagiarism of the works of Christian authors is perhaps a similar ploy the devil used in Luke 4. wierwille’s mangling of the works of others along with his twisting of Scriptures was a deadly scheme to the young and naïve like myself. I notice some interesting similarities between wierwille’s methods and the devil’s strategy in tempting Jesus to deviate from God’s plan by abusing power, twisting the meaning of Scripture, and as a means of self-aggrandizement in the religious community. The early Christians were warned by Paul and others “I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard!” Acts 20 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. II Peter 2 That’s all for now folks, Merry Christmas to all Jesus Christ is the reason for the season! ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *Footnotes: https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/6-1-the-insanity-defense/ Delusion - Wikipedia Implications of Delusional Disorders and Criminal Behaviour for Criminology | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov) Explaining Delusional Thinking | Psychology Today Criminal Intent: What Everyone Should Know - Cook Attorneys Criminal Intent - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes (legaldictionary.net) Violent Crime and Dimensions of Delusion: A Comparative Study of Criminal and Noncriminal Delusional Patients | Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law (jaapl.org) Delusions - IResearchNet the absolute positively complete and final end - I think

119. Presents an illusion of knowledge that often dissuades a student from looking any further. In PFAL wierwille uses skewed methods to organize and interpret information. This tenuous paradigm first introduced in PFAL continues to dull cognitive skills. Even for years after taking the Power For Abundant Living class for the first time, the flimsy framework is periodically shored up by repeating PFAL class and other classes and programs – everything is founded on the tenets of PFAL. “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.” – Steven Hawking Let’s get nerdy for a minute about some terms Cognitive skills: these intellectual functions are mental skills used in acquiring knowledge, manipulating information, reasoning, and problem-solving. Cognitive skills can be considered a person’s tools for learning. Understanding: has a variety of definitions: the ability to learn, judge, make decisions, etc.; intelligence or sense, the faculty of reason, personal opinion or interpretation of a subject. Metacognition is an awareness of one's thought processes and an understanding of the patterns behind them. The term comes from the root word meta, meaning "beyond", or "on top of".[1] Metacognition can take many forms, such as reflecting on one's ways of thinking and knowing when and how to use particular strategies for problem-solving. And while we’re talking shop – here’s some excerpts from a Psychology Today article: This brings us to the second question: what behaviors are motivated by the feeling of understanding…researchers feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete. What did this feeling motivate researchers to do? Continue to attempt and build their understanding per se. In the cases where researchers lack the feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete, they seem to do one thing: stop. That is to say that reaching a feeling of understanding appears to act as a stopping rule for learning. That people stop investing in learning when they feel they understand is likely what Hawkins was hinting at in his quote. The feeling of understanding is the enemy of knowledge because it motivates you to stop acquiring the stuff. It might even motivate you to begin to share that information with others, opting to speak on a topic, rather than defer to who you perceive to be an expert… …Understanding…is to be distinguished from the feeling of understanding. While understanding…refers to the actual connections among your mental representations, the feeling of understanding refers to your mental representations about the state of those other mental representations. The feeling of understanding, then, is a bit of a metacognitive sensation; your thinking about your thinking. Much like understanding per se, the feeling of understanding comes in varying degrees: one can feel as if they don’t understand something at all through feeling as if they understand it completely, and anything in between. With this distinction made, we can begin to start considering some profitable questions: what is the connection between understanding per se and the feeling of understanding? What behaviors are encouraged by the feeling of understanding? What functional outcome(s) are those behaviors aimed at achieving? Given these functional outcomes, what predictions can we draw about how people experiencing various degrees of feeling as if they understand something will react to certain contexts? A good explanation needs to focus on some outcome of a behavior; some plausible function of that outcome that can account for the emotion or feeling itself. This is notably easier in some cases than others: hunger motivates people to seek out and consume food avoiding starvation; fear motivates people to escape from or avoid threatening situations, avoiding danger; guilt motivates people to make amends and repair relationships towards wronged parties, avoiding condemnation and punishment while reaping the benefits of social interaction. Recently, I found myself posing that functional question about a feeling that is not often discussed: understanding. From: Understanding Understanding | Psychology Today End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ From my own experience I can attest to the realities in the Psychology Today article. I decided to make PFAL the touchstone for truth. The tenets of PFAL was the criterion by which I sorted out truth from error. The false confidence of having superior knowledge ( an ace up the sleeve for any Gnostic ) was probably a big factor in me being driven to share it with others. ~ ~ ~ ~ I believe that everyone is trying to figure out what life is all about. For all intents and purposes that makes us all amateur philosophers. We live…we strive to understand: …philosophy is not only important to questions of how we should conduct our lives. Human beings are thinking creatures, for whom pure understanding is an end in itself. Finding out about the origin of the universe, or about the nature of conscientiousness, may make no difference in the way we behave, but it would run counter to human nature not to pursue such questions… …philosophy is needed whenever we are faced by questions that are not only important but also intellectually perplexing…There are plenty of big unanswered questions in science…these questions lack answers only because we haven’t yet amassed enough empirical evidence to reach a conclusion. Philosophical questions raise a different kind of difficulty. When we ask whether humans have free will…our puzzlement is not just due to a lack of information. Rather the questions themselves are confusing. To make progress we need to scrutinize the very terms…that are used to pose the issues. From the introduction of Philosophy: Theories and Great Thinkers by David Papineau (goodreads.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ The long and the short of it is, our experiences shape our understanding…our perception: Perception (from Latin perceptio 'gathering, receiving') is the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the presented information or environment. All perception involves signals that go through the nervous system, which in turn result from physical or chemical stimulation of the sensory system. Vision involves light striking the retina of the eye; smell is mediated by odor molecules; and hearing involves pressure waves. Perception is not only the passive receipt of these signals, but it is also shaped by the recipient's learning, memory, expectation, and attention. Sensory input is a process that transforms this low-level information to higher-level information (e.g., extracts shapes for object recognition). The process that follows connects a person's concepts and expectations (or knowledge), restorative and selective mechanisms (such as attention) that influence perception. Although people traditionally viewed the senses as passive receptors, the study of illusions and ambiguous images has demonstrated that the brain's perceptual systems actively and pre-consciously attempt to make sense of their input.[4] There is still active debate about the extent to which perception is an active process of hypothesis testing, analogous to science, or whether realistic sensory information is rich enough to make this process unnecessary. Perception: In this step of the perception process, you perceive the stimulus object in the environment. It is at this point that you become consciously aware of the stimulus. Recognition: Perception doesn't just involve becoming consciously aware of the stimuli. It is also necessary for the brain to categorize and interpret what you are sensing. The ability to interpret and give meaning to the object is the next step, known as recognition. From: Perception - Wikipedia Remember all the things that parents would say stunts your growth? Well, I'm here to tell you PFAL will for sure ! See also: Understanding Understanding | Psychology Today Perception | Definition, Process, Examples, Differences, & Facts | Britannica Perception: The Sensory Experience of the World (verywellmind.com) Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia Cognitive distortion - Wikipedia 50 Common Cognitive Distortions | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ As an example, on pages 23 & 24 of the blue book The Bible Tells Me So, in the chapter Are You Limiting God? wierwille introduces an artifice of knowledge intended entice students into following his ideology: ".. . We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.' We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man." End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ In the above excerpt, wierwille forwards his unique idea of spiritualism “where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place”. I’ve heard a form of this countless times in wierwille’s live teachings – the essence of it is the subliminal message that wierwille’s interpretation of the Bible surpasses limited human logic – therefore trust wierwille rather than your own thinking. That’s all for now, folks

sorry I didn't respond to this - Merry Christmas to you too, Chockfull ! Earlier - when I wrote my first response, I was riding shotgun - keeping my wife company as she drove around on a couple of errands - it's a little bit challenging on streets with potholes - and was afraid I'd lose connectivity - guess it's a good way to force me to be concise and think on my feet passenger seat anyway this card is for you ~ ~ ~ ~ and this one is adaptable to all the other Grease Spotters shades of Ho Ho Re Lo and if that doesn't work for you - here's my fallback

Thanks yeah this can get into stuff about Salvation. TWI made a big thing about God does not change - and wierwille said verses that have God repenting or angry or hating he attributed to figure of speech condescension - but I now disagree with that wooden idea of the nature of God. when passages talk about the immutability of God - that He does not change I believe it’s in reference to His righteous benevolent character. He is also a social being after all He created sentient beings like angels and humankind! Deep topics like foreknowledge, God’s sovereignty, predestination and such are too complicated for my pea brain to take in - even systematic theologies I’ve looked into barely scratch the surface of stuff in my opinion is too profound for us finite beings to grasp. BUT I can understand that decision and game theory stuff of my previous post - when I said the universe is inhabited by intelligent free agents - I included God in that idea

Since it’s relevant to this thread I thought I’d repost something I said on another thread here and here ... anyway here it is: Decision and Game Theory versus Determinism I read an article in Amazon.com: Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy: 9780415223645: Routledge Staff: Books , the following excerpts are from page 195ff, Decision and Game Theory: Decision theory studies individual decision-making in situations in which an individual’s choice neither affects nor is affected by other individuals’ choices; while game theory studies decision-making in situations where individuals do affect each other. Decision theory asks questions like: what does it mean to choose rationally? How should we make choices when the consequences of our actions are uncertain? Buying insurance and deciding which job to take are examples of the kind of decisions studied by this discipline. Game theory instead applies to all decisions that have a strategic component. The choices of an oligopolist, voting strategies, military tactical problems, deterrence, but also common phenomena such as threatening, promising, conflict and cooperation are its subject matter. In a strategic situation, the goal is not just to choose rationally, but to choose in such a way that a mutual solution is achieved, so that choices ‘coordinate’ in the right way. The formal methods developed by game theory do not require that the subject making a choice be an intentional agent: coordinated interaction between animals or computers can be successfully modeled as well. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ This correlates to a quote from page 240 of the book Amazon.com: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind: 9780062316097: Harari, Yuval Noah: Books that I mentioned in an earlier post > here …determinism is appealing because it implies that our world and our beliefs are a natural and inevitable product of history…History cannot be explained deterministically, and it cannot be predicted because it is chaotic. So many forces are at work and their interactions are so complex that extremely small variations in the strength of the forces and the way they interact produce huge differences in outcomes. From a Christian perspective I believe the universe is inhabited by intelligent free agents. ~ ~ ~ ~ In an article by J.I. Packer, free agency is described in more detail: Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus, they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right. Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Gal. 5:1, 13). It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart. From : Inability: Free Will Vs. Free Agency | Monergism ~ ~ ~ ~ and from another post with some revision and hyperlinks added: this touches on aspects related to the Fall and our Salvation. TWI made a big thing about God does not change - and wierwille said verses that have God repenting or angry or hating he attributed to figure of speech condescension - but I now disagree with that wooden idea of the nature of God. when passages talk about the immutability of God - that He does not change I believe it’s in reference to His righteous benevolent character. He is also a social being after all He created sentient beings like angels and humankind! Deep topics like foreknowledge, God’s sovereignty, predestination and such are too complicated for my pea brain to take in - even systematic theologies I’ve looked into barely scratch the surface of stuff in my opinion is too profound for us finite beings to grasp. BUT I can understand that decision and game theory stuff of my previous post - when I said the universe is inhabited by intelligent free agents - I included God in that idea see also other hyperlinks below - and note I often put sources that might present different perspectives on a topic rather than just supporting one view...as an aside - I personally lean toward open theism - but can't resolve some issues with it compared to classic theology that incorporated some Greek philosophy...the Wayne Grudem video below brings up some good points against open theism - I admired his work and have his systematic theology - but I leave this clip here - in good faith - for Grease Spotters to make up their own mind on the topic...as for me I'm comfortable with being flexible in my belief system - if something makes sense to me and doesn't seem to contradict the Scriptures that's okay in my book...it may just mean I need to expand my concept of something from the Bible: Open theism - Wikipedia What is open theism? | GotQuestions.org Open Theism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu) What is Open Theism? The future is open and God does not know all (carm.org) that's all for now, folks

Decision and Game Theory versus Determinism Since there wasn’t anything of interest going on, thought I’d post something related to this topic determinism and the illusion of free will. I read an article in Amazon.com: Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy: 9780415223645: Routledge Staff: Books , the following excerpts are from page 195ff, Decision and Game Theory: Decision theory studies individual decision-making in situations in which an individual’s choice neither affects nor is affected by other individuals’ choices; while game theory studies decision-making in situations where individuals do affect each other. Decision theory asks questions like: what does it mean to choose rationally? How should we make choices when the consequences of our actions are uncertain? Buying insurance and deciding which job to take are examples of the kind of decisions studied by this discipline. Game theory instead applies to all decisions that have a strategic component. The choices of an oligopolist, voting strategies, military tactical problems, deterrence, but also common phenomena such as threatening, promising, conflict and cooperation are its subject matter. In a strategic situation, the goal is not just to choose rationally, but to choose in such a way that a mutual solution is achieved, so that choices ‘coordinate’ in the right way. The formal methods developed by game theory do not require that the subject making a choice be an intentional agent: coordinated interaction between animals or computers can be successfully modeled as well. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ This correlates to a quote from page 240 of the book Amazon.com: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind: 9780062316097: Harari, Yuval Noah: Books that I mentioned in an earlier post > here …determinism is appealing because it implies that our world and our beliefs are a natural and inevitable product of history…History cannot be explained deterministically, and it cannot be predicted because it is chaotic. So many forces are at work and their interactions are so complex that extremely small variations in the strength of the forces and the way they interact produce huge differences in outcomes. From a Christian perspective I believe the universe is inhabited by intelligent free agents. ~ ~ ~ ~ In an article by J.I. Packer, free agency is described in more detail: Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus, they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right. Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Gal. 5:1, 13). It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart. From : Inability: Free Will Vs. Free Agency | Monergism That’s all for now, folks

for a more thorough discussion see The absent Christ? thread

Multiple choice on what’s the deal with wierwille’s left hand: A. In the weird world of tit-for-tat, since wierwille couldn’t heal that India guy’s lame arm, India guy broke wierwille’s left hand B. Practicing pocket pool during the photo shoot C. Hand signal code: I’m pinching a loaf at this very moment D. Classic right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing illustration: pseudo-Christian cult-leader has Bible in right hand while holding a Roofie in the left hand. E. Trying to hide the fact that he often consults the pendant (note chain across vest) F. Giving a subliminal message that his ovaries hurt G. All of the above

Got that from my wife We frequently send stuff like that back and forth to each other. After 46 years of marriage, it’s come to this…a new phase in life…a cyber-phase

some threads are like a spectator sport

Yet another take on empathy Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling. My disappointment with wierwille / PFAL / TWI is not the same as someone who still defends wierwille / PFAL / TWI by making excuses for it all and wants to particularize what’s the baby and what’s the dirty bath water. Their disappointment seems to be over wierwille not being perfect and Grease Spotters are unforgiving. I’m disillusioned over wierwille being a phony, a con man! The man and his “ministry” are worthless! He’s the false prophet / ferocious wolf / bad tree of Matthew 7: 15 - 20 …and Jesus did NOT say “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water “ …He said every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. He did NOT say reform or try to salvage the bad tree or its fruit! And it saddens me to see anyone hold onto wierwille / PFAL with great tenacity while in their delusional world they make like they understand why I am dissatisfied with my whole TWI experience because they went through the same thing. They did not! They still believe wierwille’s bull$hit. wierwille could have had the best of intentions. But If he meant to do good then he should have gone about it honestly- instead of claiming he heard from God . If he was honest - why didn’t he just say “I got this from so-and-so, you should take BG Leonard’s class. “ why did he have to lie? Why did he have to steal? Why did he plagiarize big time? if he really believed God talked to him and God helped him “ correct” what others taught - then he was delusional. And anyone who comes to Grease Spot regularly and still thinks wierwille/ PFAL is the greatest thing since rightly-divided bread is probably delusional too. 4 crucified Bible interprets itself delusional! I left because I realized wierwille is a big phony and his life, his doctrines…his theories…and his practices can be summed up in two words: hypocritical bull$hit ! ~ ~ ~ ~ Late edit: I should also clarify the huge difference of experiences. Once Fred and Jane got married, Fred finds that Jane is no longer interested in going hunting and fishing with him. They still get along great and do other fun things together. Fred is a little saddened because he wanted her to be into his favorite hobbies like he is. That’s disappointment. People are not perfect so there’s bound to be some let downs. One day Fred returns home early from fishing due to bad weather – and finds Jane in bed with an old boyfriend from college – and it also comes out that there’s been others – for years. That’s betrayal. That’s what con artists do. Some disappointments can be negotiated, corrected, or compromised; others must be accepted and tolerated, if the relationship is otherwise viable and important to you. In contrast, betrayal is non-negotiable, intolerable, and should never be accepted without significant relationship repair. From: When Disappointment Feels Like Betrayal | Psychology Today

speaking of The Way Tree…some relevant and divergent information follows The ideological crux behind the entire “Way Tree” revelation hoax is the following grandiose lie: “Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing”. The book “The Twelve Traditions” was published by Alcoholics Anonymous in 1946. It sets forth the administrative structure and “procedural protocol” regarding how each AA Chapter is to be governed... ...When I was in-Rez with the 4th corpse in the fall of 1973, 3 Of The new “Advanced Studies” classes were videotaped during our first year. They were “The Renewed Mind”, and “Dealing With The Adversary” by Walter Cummins, and “The Way Tree” by John Townsend. During the taping of The WT, dictor had nite owls in the BRC. During one of said Nite owls, I DISTINCTLY remember him telling us that “The Way Tree revelation” was “inspired” by the “A.A. structure”. He never said how he came across those writings. You’ll notice also, that small little phrases like KISS———keep it simple stupid—, are also to be found throughout the halls of AA. Plagiarism was a way of life for DP! LOL! The Way Tree “revelation” was nothing more than a plagiarized business plan for an MLM scheme called PFAL. And, as EVERYTHING else in dictor paul’s minus-tray, it was stolen almost word-for-Word, and concept by concept from another source and that source, (AA), was never given proper credit publicly. To say that there was ANY part or piece of TWIt that was in any way “original”, is as ludicrous as saying “the Earth is flat”. And, just as accurate!.............peace. excerpts from a post by Don’t Worry Be Happy ~ ~ ~ ~ Also related is Skyrider’s thread The life cycle of wierwille’s way tree ~ ~ ~ ~ Moving on to more references ... from page 890ff of Dictionary of Biblical Imagery: Ryken, Leland, Wilhoit, James C., Longman III, Tremper: 9780830814510: Amazon.com: Books Trees in the Bible: Trees are a flexible metaphor in the Bible. New International Version The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. New International Version down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. New Living Translation But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 5Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. ~ ~ ~ ~ Trees can represent governments, judgement, pride, a curse: Ezekiel 31 NIV - Pharaoh as a Felled Cedar of Lebanon In - Bible Gateway New International Version And they will know that I am the LORD, when their people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak—places where they offered fragrant incense to all their idols. New American Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— New International Version The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. New International Version Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit. ~ ~ ~ ~ Biblical imagery for the church from page 147ff of Dictionary of Biblical Imagery: Ryken, Leland, Wilhoit, James C., Longman III, Tremper: 9780830814510: Amazon.com: Books The called out: concerning the Church, The Bible provides a rich kaleidoscope of imagery about the church composed of around one hundred metaphors and statements. The thread on which all other jewels are hung is the idea of the church as an ἐκκλησίᾳ (ekklēsia) Strong's Greek: 1577. ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation (biblehub.com) applied to the “calling out” of citizens for a civic meeting or of soldiers for battle; used extensively throughout Old and New Test. To refer to the people of God: New International Version Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.” Deuteronomy 4:10 Interlinear: 'The day when thou hast stood before Jehovah thy God in Horeb -- in Jehovah's saying unto me, Assemble to Me the people, and I cause them to hear My words, so that they learn to fear Me all the days that they are alive on the ground, and their sons they teach; -- (biblehub.com) Strong's Hebrew: 6950. קָהַל (qahal) -- to gather as an assembly or congregation (biblehub.com) Ephesians 1:22 Interlinear: and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him -- head over all things to the assembly, (biblehub.com) New International Version To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours: New Living Translation You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. ~ ~ ~ ~ The body of Christ: Primary image of the Christian church is a body – a living organism, not a religious organization: 12The body is a unit, though it is composed of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink. 14For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact, God has arranged the members of the body, every one of them, according to His design. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you.” Nor can the head say to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts we consider less honorable, we treat with greater honor. And our unpresentable parts are treated with special modesty, 24whereas our presentable parts have no such need. But God has composed the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. ~ ~ ~ ~ The temple: Central to the Old Testament religion was the temple. The church of Jesus Christ does not worship at a temple but has become the temple. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells inb you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. New International Version built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. ~ ~ ~ ~ Spiritual seed of Abraham: some images like “seed” maintain a continuity with the past. The past roots of the people of God stress that the followers of Jesus Christ are connected with the people of the old covenant: New International Version If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. New International Version Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God. New International Version But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. ~ ~ ~ ~ The vineyard: Israel was spoken of as a much loved vineyard, which had only produced bad fruit and thus destined for destruction Isaiah 5 BSB (biblehub.com) - the picture in John 15 BSB (biblehub.com) draws on that Old Testament image where we see Jesus as the true vine – and His disciples as branches needing to remain in Him to thrive and bear fruit (be productive). ~ ~ ~ ~ The kingdom of God: a second background image is the idea of the kingdom. Its relation to the church has been much debated, but the two cannot be identical even though there are areas of overlap. The church is the partial fulfillment of the kingdom of God in the here and now and serves as a primary agent of the kingdom; hence it is appropriate to apply some kingdom imagery to the church itself: New International Version For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, ~ ~ ~ ~ The flock: From the everyday world in which Jesus and His followers lived: John 10 BSB (biblehub.com) 1 Peter 5 BSB (biblehub.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ The bride of Christ: the people of God look forward to the complete realization of their salvation in the future. New International Version Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her Matthew 25 BSB (biblehub.com) 2 Corinthians 11 BSB (biblehub.com) Revelation 19 BSB (biblehub.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ The household – an inclusive social unit – family: Hebrews 3 BSB (biblehub.com) Ephesians 5 BSB (biblehub.com) Ephesians 6 BSB (biblehub.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ Do you know what I think? I think wierwille was so deluded - that he believed The Way Ministry / The Way Tree was the body of Christ... ...and for all diabolical purposes - it more or less was... The Way Tree mimics the body of Christ - but instead of Christ being the head it was wierwille! who is the head of TWI now? a dead idol - wierwille ! let's hear it for the royal priest-hoods ~ ~ ~ ~

You can’t go beyond what you’re taught you’ve interpreted ~ ~ ~ ~ If anyone speaks in a word salad two — or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet and order the house salad I Corinthians 14 NIOV aka New Internet Obfuscated Version

hey before we get started - just wanted to let you know I'm okay with opposing ideas