T-Bone

great article Bolshevik! thanks for posting the link! and good point! of late I've been trying to remember to be inclusive - like in my thread on human nature...using the term 'humankind' rather than 'mankind'

Will it go round in circles

Hi Charity great questions! I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works. I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about. I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers: (A) Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit? T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below. I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walk to find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground. The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities: New International Version if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach…Romans 12:7 There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do. Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (* see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery ~ ~ ~ ~ Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3? T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible. My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows: It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son! Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ. ~ ~ ~ ~ (B) Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit? T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships: New International Version The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3 Amplified Bible He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15 Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Philippians 2 ~ ~ ~ ~ *helpful books and relevant hyperlinks; note, some books listed are newer editions than the ones I have: Knowing God (The IVP Signature Collection): Packer, J. I., Vanhoozer, Kevin J.: 9780830848614: Amazon.com: Books Jesus: Lord & Savior (Jesus Library) by F. F. Bruce (1986-06-21): Amazon.com: Books Keep in step with the Spirit: J. I Packer: 9780800713829: Amazon.com: Books Understanding the Bible: John Stott: 9780310414315 - Christianbook.com All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out Systematic Theology, Second Edition: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine: Grudem, Wayne A.: 9780274840472: Amazon.com: Books False Humility | Psychology Today Reconciling Humility and Self-Worth in the Age of Ego - Ruminate Magazine What is Cultural Humility? The Basics | Equity and Inclusion (uoregon.edu)

Part 2: Why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? On the reasons Why PFAL sucks thread, reason # 107 addresses the delusion that wierwille saw himself as the self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. From - here where I asked the question why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff: I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?” “I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.” “I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”… …“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”… … ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.” “So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.” “So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.” “But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.” “At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.” “…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!” …”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.” “I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.” “So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.” “We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…” “You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it." End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church. And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.” So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not! Study I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit . That is the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. It’s NOT based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it. I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts. A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility; and besides - there are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service: Romans 12:3-8 I Corinthians 7:7 Ephesians 4:7-16 I Peter 4:11 Just think about this – in PFAL wierwille said “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Wow wee wow! So not only ignore the prime directive (tell others about Christ) let’s pretend the one who issued that directive is not around…The Way International is a pseudo-Christian cult – they sprinkle Jesus Christ’s name here and there like an incompetent cook would try to disguise an unpalatable meal. That’s all for now, folks

Part 1: What’s the Story? It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God. Excerpt from The Way International - Operating the Gift of Holy Spirit ~ ~ ~ ~ These last four sentences of TWI’s article are the same old storyline wierwille designed for his ‘ministry’. I just don’t see that as a biblical imperative for the church. What church? Oh, any church – any part of the body of Christ…so…uhm I guess the church in general going all the way back to its inception. Jesus Christ’s prime directive in Acts 1:8 is actually quite simple: New International Version But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” New Living Translation But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Amplified Bible But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.” Receiving power from the Holy Spirit enables believers to carry out their mission – telling others about Jesus Christ! ~ ~ ~ ~ To reiterate stuff I said in my previous post regarding John 14, 15 and 16, Jesus was talking about the supernatural partnership of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – most Bible scholars understand this prophecy of Jesus as a reference to the New Testament writings: But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15 These passages speak to the ‘teamwork’ of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings. Regarding where we are at now as Christians in the 21st century with hardcopies and electronic versions of the Bible - these passages of John also allude to the fundamental interrelationship of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand / apply Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…and in light of Jesus Christ’s prime directive – it’s all about Christ. Telling others about Him… …Bringing others to Him in our evangelizing efforts. It’s not about witnessing for PFAL Today or getting someone signed up for PFAL Today. TWI continues wierwille’s skewed narrative of uninformed Christians needing to be taught how to operate the holy spirit – “It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God.”… Oh really? How did the church ever manage all those years since the 1st century without wierwille’s help? “We can make things happen!” …oh really? Other than the last session of PFAL when wierwille convinces new students to follow his instructions to move their lips, tongue and mouth and to NOT THINK about what they’re saying – what other things do TWI-followers and TWI-leaders make happen? You know, you can’t fake miracles and gifts of healing. ~ ~ ~ ~ I got involved with TWI in 1974. I was a college student, musician and artist – and being into the counterculture of the time – I bought into the narrative of wierwille being a maverick led by God to get us back to the glories of 1st century. To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative…I read a thoughtful article about that today – the article is addressed to stepparents and not cult-survivors – but the process is still the same: If you think about ‘changing the narrative,’ think about the movie, Jaws. In that movie, everything centers on this predisposed fear around the narrative of sharks and why they’re scary. Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true. Isn’t this the same for family dynamics? Whatever we’re used to, whatever we’ve been told — that becomes our norm, our narrative. And it all starts with this unhealthy (and sometimes not even true) perspective. In order to change the perspective, you have to change the narrative. As a stepparent, I don’t want to be compared, labeled, or seen as anything else other than someone who stepped up and committed to the journey. Over the past ten years, I have worked so hard to build trust within my family. But I was only successful because I chose to be different in my approach as a stepfather. I wanted to challenge the norm, the narrative, and the way I valued myself. Once I did that, my entire journey shifted. That’s my challenge to every stepparent who comes across our page — let’s change the narrative — together. Just because you’ve heard (or even experienced the ‘evil stepparent’ mindset before doesn’t mean it has to be something that continues. The change starts with you. From: What Does It Mean To 'Change The Narrative'? - Step By Step Parents For the church the narrative should be all about Jesus Christ Individually, we each have a variety of stories to tell. How we met our significant other. How having kids changed things. How we learned an instrument, a skill, the ups and downs of a career, how we made changes to our belief system – and of course how we escaped a cult. If we’re truthful…honest – changing the narrative is somewhat difficult and tedious – but so much more fulfilling than buying into the make-believe world of wierwille / PFAL. ~ ~ ~ ~ Coming soon to a Grease Spot near you Part 2: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? See you soon

yup! ~ ~ ~ ~ Revisiting TWI’s article, I think they repeat the same mistake wierwille made of misinterpreting John 14 and 16 as if it applies to ‘operating the holy spirit’ as if Jesus was revealing to us how to control a power that is independent of God. First look at the article: To see this power in manifestation, we must operate the gift God has given us. But how does it work? God’s Word can help us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit. In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind. John 14:26:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out. https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/ end of excerpt from TWI's website ~ ~ ~ ~ Now look at the context of the passages in NIV: 15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” 22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 14 ~ ~ ~ ~ 26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. John 15 ~ ~ ~ ~ 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” 16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.” 17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.” 19 Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’? 20 Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21 A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. 25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” 29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” 31 “Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. John 16 ~ ~ ~ ~ Jesus talked about the supernatural collaboration of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – in retrospect one can easily see a reference to the New Testament writings: But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15 So, these passages are NOT teaching about ‘the great principle’ of “God who is spirit teaching His creation in you which is now your spirit...& etc.”. These passages specifically speak to the collaboration of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings. These passages may also be understood as alluding to a ‘general principle’ of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…wierwille’s egocentrism came up with the concept that we operate the spirit – that we are in control of the holy spirit- he made it out like that’s what Corinthians taught: 9 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. 34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g] 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[h] 39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. I Corinthians 14 ~ ~ ~ ~ Several study Bibles (* the three I’ve used for this post are listed below) give more background as to some of the problems troubling the Corinthian church. One of the issues was the common knowledge of ecstatic rituals in other religions – Christian believers might expect their experiences to be similar...it would be necessary to distinguish these practices of other religions from the genuine influence of the Holy Spirit – like the Speaking in tongues - Wikipedia practiced by some other religions – often accompanied with trance-like or even wild energetic behavior…In I Corinthians 14 we find Paul stressing that a believer’s behavior is always under self-control and that everything is to be done orderly and appropriately. ~ ~ ~ ~ *Study Bibles I used for this post NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com The MacArthur Study Bible, 2nd Edition, NASB - Thomas Nelson Bibles NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible, Hardcover, Comfort Print: Edited By: D.A. Carson: 9780310450405 - Christianbook.com that's all for now, folks

The other day I was reading that article on TWI’s website and noticed that omission too (“…God can only speak to what He is which is spirit…”). But the unspoken 'wierwillian-concept' is the same and touches on some very complicated subjects - which I won’t get into in detail here - other than showing there’s more than one way of addressing how does God work in us - btw Charity started a fascinating thread on that > Here But anyway …to be brief - the deeper topics to explore when reevaluating the great principle are: 1. The mysterious dynamics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - the Scriptures suggest they are somehow intertwined - especially in John 14, 15, and 16 and of course in the epistles where all 3 might be referenced in the context certainly hints at an ‘interagency’ ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. wierwille’s dichotomy of Holy Spirit and holy spirit is highly suspect. wierwille’s misinterpretations and interpolations of I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 are the mainstay of this erroneous doctrine. this assumes we receive something distinctly separate from God. See trichotomy / dichotomy point below ~ ~ ~ ~ 3. wierwille introduced another step in how God works in each believer - exemplified by his egocentric bias of saying I Corinthians 12:11 meant the believer determines what abilities they will “operate” - in other words depending on one’s believing - a person will tend to have a long suit or suits in certain spiritual abilities…that is contrary to the simple idea expressed in passages like Romans 12, Philippians 2:13, I Peter 4:10 where we are encouraged to use whatever gift we’ve received to serve others Nowhere in Scripture do we find detailed instructions on HOW to ‘operate’ the gift of the ‘holy spirit’ (lower case “h” and “s” to indicate something separate from the Holy Spirit = God) . All Scripture - including I Corinthians 12,13, and 14 have an underlying assumption - we already HAVE certain gifts - the thrust of most passages teach us to have the proper attitude and get busy serving others with those gifts. ~ ~ ~ ~ 4. wierwille’s trichotomy of the original true nature of humankind - body, soul, and spirit further obfuscates how God works in us. Whether one holds to a trichotomy view, or a dichotomy view of humankind is debatable in some circles - personally I don’t get hung up in the concept - since we’re not talking about 'trans-dimensional surgery to separate spirit from matter' - but rather in the context of evangelizing, counseling and serving we are concerned with the WHOLE person. I personally lean toward a dichotomy and have gotten into more Scripture on this on other threads: have a nice day and a happy new year

used copies are still available on Amazon Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape: Skedgell, Kristen: 9780972002196: Amazon.com: Books

Yes yes yes yes !!!! Time travel !!!! I have the perfect idea for luggage Happy New Year Grease Spotters!

Negotiations over the absurd are a waste of time. it boils down to arguments to defend wierwille / PFAL are based on a priori - a presumption that wierwille was chosen and guided by God to teach “The Word” as it had not been known since the first century. Something I find idiotic and idolatrous! ~ ~ ~ ~ My arguments against such undeserved veneration of wierwille’s anti-Christian ideology are grounded - NOT in reverence for wierwille and his works - but on quantitative and qualitative empirical evidence of wierwille’s words and deeds - a potpourri of twisted Scripture, hypocrisies, despicable behavior, the testimony of those he abused, exploited and sexually molested. ~ ~ ~ ~ A theory is an explanation of the relationship in a set of observations. The observations should provide evidence for the theory. Solid evidence supports a theory in the way that legs support a table or columns support the roof of a building. The overwhelmingly contradictory, illogical, incoherent, unbiblical and deviant characteristics of wierwille’s doctrine and behavior leave the a priori of him being chosen and guided by God without a leg to stand on. To argue that wierwille was the real deal - chosen by God to teach “The Word” to the modern world is to say that God is a senile old coot who forgot what Jesus Christ accomplished...and the Old Codger of the Empyrean Domain must have also forgotten that Jesus Christ is supposed to be what doctrine, theory and practice revolve around...the Most Holy Long-in-the-Tooth must have lost track of the truth - for He had wierwille say "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"... It’s a shame the Transcendent Old Geezer has gone soft on the 10 commandments - cuz He directed wierwille to say "as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please". Must be Alzheimer’s of the Divine Mind for Him to forget He’s omnipotent and now has to submit to “the law of believing “ once - in the late 60s there was a ‘disturbance in the force’ when the Ancient of Days Cantankerous Creator of the Cosmos had His sacred afternoon nap zzzZZZ ZZZ interrupted by a pseudo-Christian cult-leader shouting something about Jesus Christ coming back as Lord of Lords, King of kings, as God Almighty. The Omniscient Geriatric Prime Mover had to confer with the rest of the divine council at The Metaphysical Assisted Living for Supernatural Beings to determine if wierwille was talking about Him or His Son. Statement to be issued at some future day and time and hour and minute and second and millisecond as it already was were and has have or had been. Who is The Logos? Who's on first? Who is the first? Who's that knocking at my door? To whom is this post written? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Not saying I'm a prophet or anything but I have it on pretty good authority there's a new year coming. And for that reason, I say to all Grease Spotters , have a Happy New Year

Rocky, thanks for the recommendation and what you shared! You always bring great ‘thought-food’ to the table! You touch on some relevant subtopics and tangents too: Genuine relationships vs contrived ones in the social dynamics of a cult Developing a life-transforming relationship with Jesus Christ instead of being encased in the concrete ideology of a dead idol (wierwille). Becoming self-aware. Your actual-self (YOUR preferences, goals, desires, talents, etc.) vs your adaptive-self (what you think and do to survive in a cult). Being true to yourself.

No - I haven't ...sounds interesting though...may have to check it out...I'm up to my old ways of reading a several books at a time

Why the concern over a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult like The Way International? The relevance has to do with those still involved with TWI. There’s always the chance that some folks inside have questions, doubts, concerns, issues and something they read on Grease Spot Cafe will resonate with them…or help resolve a mystery of something they’ve suspected for a while. I start threads like this as a preemptive strike - prompted by the clearly imminent danger of certain posters who seem to enjoy generating white noise in an attempt to mask the treacherous nature of wierwille-doctrine / PFAL / TWI...I think most sensible people can make their way through such nonsense to figure out what's what. It seems to me wierwille-defenders and pro-PFAL posters want to dicker over the ‘good’ from wierwille / PFAL as far as the biblical content and / or the blessings people have received from wierwille / PFAL. These supposed benefits can be easily debunked by properly analyzing teachings to expose the Scripture twisting and logical fallacies. Harry G. Frankfurt in his little book “On Bull$hit” , said lying and bluffing are similar modes of misrepresentation or deception and that the essence of bull$hit is not that it is ALL false but that it is phony. What is WRONG with counterfeit money - no matter how close it mimics real money - is NOT what iI is like but HOW it is made. That is crucial for several reasons…note some of the forgery methods used to prop up a facade of Christianity and respectability: > wierwille’s fake doctorate > I doubt some of wierwille’s past associations listed on TWI’s website, since certain scholars and theologians on the list are miles apart theologically from wierwille’s doctrines. Perhaps wierwille was just a name-dropper. >wierwille’s claim of taking everything Moody correspondence school had to offer - see the letter from Moody correspondence that shows he lied. See. Here > Letter from Moody Correspondence school > it should not be assumed the works he plagiarized are the gold standard. There are problems in those works too - and there’s wierwille mangling up some good content and some bad stuff - which through his incompetence and depraved agenda he managed to make even worse > wierwille’s claim of God audibly giving him an assignment to teach others “the Word” which had not been known since the 1st century. A ridiculous claim at that which has been discredited in several ways on many threads - by folks who are internet savvy, street smart to scams and have a vast amount of resources for Bible study - I think one would be hard pressed to find a lot of gullible people to fall for the God’s chosen messenger con. The ideal cult-candidate is usually young and naive. ~ ~ ~ ~ And claiming all the thousands already blessed by wierwille / PFAL doesn’t amount to squat without hard proof…it’s obviously a desperate sales tactic ~ ~ ~ ~ A parasite is a good description of a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult like The Way International… TWI is an organization run by exploitative people. The organization survives by exploiting followers. There is a ‘commerce’ - an interchange of goods…commodities…resources…money…services…something of value (whether perceived or genuine) between HQ and followers. Followers give of their time, money, resources, talents, labor in exchange for something of no value = wierwille's twisted dogmatic fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism wierwille was a pontificating pathological liar...plagiarist, drunkard, sexual predator, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, chain-smoking, calloused voracious wolf in sheep’s clothing ~ ~ ~ ~ Imagine if you were a skilled artisan and someone comes into your shop and pays you $20,000 cash for a handcrafted item that took you years to create. You go to the bank to deposit the cash - and the bank teller and bank manager inform you that the money is counterfeit and must be reported to the local police department and / or U.S. Secret Service field office and the phony money is to be tabulated per government protocols and surrendered to a properly identified police officer or government agent…how would you feel about that? It’s like that with how followers are exploited…ripped off by TWI. People give their hard-earned money, time, labor and the most valuable thing of all - their allegiance- in exchange for something counterfeit - the twisted ideology and practices of wierwille. ~ ~ ~ ~ wierwille / PFAL the challenging counterfeit to the Lord Jesus Christ, truth, the Bible, the body of Christ I don’t negotiate with delusional wierwille-fans. The only thing worth saving out of wierwille-doctrine/ PFAL are the people who are swindled by it. That’s all for now , folks

No one likes to receive robocalls

Shark Tank PFAL Today episode Daymond: Your new class is based on the late 60s edition, which was taught by a fake doctor who said God told him to plagiarize a bunch of copyrighted material and that it would be just as good as what they had in the first century. I speak for all of the sharks here when I say for those dumb-a$$ reasons we’re out.

Another great picture from reddit You knew Ben & Jerry’s Chunky Monkey is my favorite… …yet you bring home Haagen-Dazs… …and you wonder why I pee on the couch

Found this picture on reddit…and I gave it new meaning Now that I’m in charge There’s going to be a few changes around here

Jude was the brother of Jesus and James. One of the mega-themes of the book of Jude is false teachers and leaders who reject the lordship of Jesus Christ - undermining the faith of others. The importance of this theme cannot be overstated! We should avoid leaders and teachers who distort the Bible to suit their own agenda. Genuine Christian leaders will faithfully represent Christ in words and behavior. Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. 6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. 7 And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. 8 In the same way, these people—who claim authority from their dreams—live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. 9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels,[d] did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.) 10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. 11 What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion. 12 When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. 13 They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds. They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness. Jude 1 NLT ~ ~ ~ ~ Back in Jude’s day the body of Christ wasn’t ‘segmented’ like it is today. Back then false teachers/leaders would worm their way in (as verse 4 puts it). But in modern times with the variety of sects , denominations , offshoots , social media and such being commonplace it’s not unusual for someone to start their own thing. And you can’t judge a group by their statement of beliefs. Go to The Way International’s official website and read theirs. It reads like many mainstream Christian denominations. But the thing about a pseudo-Christian cult like TWI is that is their ‘cloaking device’. It looks like they’re Christian. Many of their teachings sound biblical and Christian-like But what many religious-cult survivors will tell you, it’s more about their methods and practices than their seemingly innocuous doctrines. It’s how they ‘shepherd the flock’. How they control groupthink. The callousness of top leadership is revealed in how they handle reported abuses of power. Does a whistleblower have legitimate fears of backlash ? it’s how harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults exploit and abuse their followers. You never hear about that stuff because of wierwille’s ‘lockbox’ policy. The elite upper leadership of hypocrites are insulated from criticism because people who have legitimate grievances are labeled possessed, tripped-out, tricked by the devil, and various other character assassination techniques! Are they outward focused ? Doing charitable work in the community? Do they look down on all other Christian groups? ~ ~ ~ ~ Jude gives 3 examples of rebellion: those of Israel who did not remain faithful, the angels who refused to submit to God’s authority, Sodom and Gomorrah filled with immorality. Clearly the Scriptures teach that sinners who do not seek forgiveness from God will face eternal separation from Him. The story of pseudo-Christian cults does not end well.

A riveting post, Rocky ! and this part I quoted relates to some of the things I’ll share in my next post - about the growth of independent churches and such

Rocky, I appreciate you posting these videos…they’re tough to watch. In the last one Megyn asks Christina (raised in the Children of God cult) at what age did it dawn on her that what’s happening here is not normal. Christina said she always had a sick feeling in her stomach – it never felt right. It was more the absence of feeling what was normal…she was forced into having sexual relations at the age of 11…that really got to me! An innocent child raised in that depravity – still had some sense of boundaries being violated.

In case anyone gets their PFAL syllabus in a wad over me periodically bringing up wierwille’s porn video-desensitizing-training session for future way ministry leaders, maybe you should check your scale of values…I mean I’m a guy and not one of the many women who wierwille sexually molested. Those poor ladies were quadruply fvcked – being physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually violated…repeatedly ! REAL Christians don’t do that! Genuine shepherds of the Lord’s flock don’t do that. Pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille do!

you’re right - please excuse my amateur writing skills - I deviated from Shelby’s recommendation to put ourselves in a pre-gospel frame of reference - cuz I wanted to note in a similar way we as Christians develop a relationship with the resurrected Christ. Okay - maybe not an exact correlation - but like many of the primitive Christians who never met the earthly Jesus - we are challenged to know Christ. Granted, we do have the added advantage of the written gospels - which I think help ground our imagination in a historical reality - the gospels provide some guidelines for inspiration and insight…of course with the help of the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit who WE LET rule in our lives - we’re less likely to stray too far from the teachings and examples Jesus gave in the gospels. unlike wierwille who was unmoored from the teachings and example of Jesus Christ in the gospels. He was so ruled by his own depravity that he would countermand Jesus’ directive to love God and neighbor in Matthew 22. The “best” incident I know of offhand to prove that - is the time wierwille showed us that porn video in the way corps and justified his showing it by saying “anything done in the love of God is okay”…that’s not just pseudo-Christianity - that’s anti-Christianity!

wierwille’s sleight of hand that was in effect gave me the feeling that I was following Jesus Christ - through the teaching and example of wierwille. A cleverly disguised fake Christianity. For want of a better analogy - I had some fuzzy idea that wierwille was like the apostle Paul reincarnated - figuratively speaking of course. But I can’t think of a stronger way to express how I so admired him…Who can argue with that? In my mind we as followers of The Way Ministry we’re picking back up where the 1st century church left off. It’s understandable how one can easily misinterpret wierwille’s strong focus on the epistles - to the exclusion of the gospels - as being the same thing as the influence of Paul in nurturing the birth of Christianity … I touched on this in another thread Here Quoting from John Shelby’s “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism “ the following excerpts are from pages 96 - 99 of the Kindle edition: Paul is a (perhaps the) primary witness in the shaping of the Christian revelation. He penned his words at a time when there were no written Gospels to feed his memory or to create his images. His epistles came during the oral period of Christian history, when there was no one authoritative source of written kerygma (the apostolic proclamation)… …nor do we have any way of knowing that Paul had access to them even if these portions of the tradition were written. These facts create an interpretative problem for modern expositors of Paul. Our minds have been so shaped by the Gospel account that we do not recognize how frequently we read Paul through the eyes of the Gospels. We need to embrace the fact that none of Paul’s first readers read him this way, for in their lives there were as yet no Gospels. To interpret Paul accurately we need to put ourselves into the first-century pre-gospel frame of reference and to hear Paul in fresh and authentic ways. When one does this the insights into the primitive Christian experience are startling and challenging… End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Behold the old wierwille switcheroo - recall wierwille’s incredibly false claim / promise of 1942 - God’s audible voice saying He would teach him “The Word” like it had not been known since the 1st century. A claim / promise that has been proven false in so many ways on so many threads. It looks to me like wierwille wanted to wield the same influence as Paul by assuming a divine authority. I think there’s a lot to Shelby’s point of Christians reading the gospels through the eyes of Paul. I don’t have a problem with that - perhaps that is they way God intended it to be read…II Corinthians 5 does say we are to know no one after the flesh - not even Jesus - because with the Holy Spirit we have new standards of judgment…we have a new perspective …but …but … BUT We SHOULD NOT exclude the gospels, the Old Testament or any of the Bible by getting into the stupid dispensational to-whom-it-is-written bull$hit that Bullinger and plagiarizer-extraordinaire-wierwille pushed! That crap is part of what powered wierwille’s pseudo-Christianity!

In TWI I was a soldier of fortune that worked for free…well…it was more like an i-o-u. I devote my time, efforts, resources, and money to TWI and they periodically reminded me about all the rewards I would get in heaven for all the work I did in the ministry.