T-Bone

Well, DJS we are ALL very deep people - being made in the image of God. And you sound like you have a good attitude towards this search of yours. After I left I did not look back - until recently. I have tried to put a lot of distance between me and TWI - but I joined the Cafe because I'm seeing value in looking back. In Thessalonians Paul said to prove all things - hold fast to that which is good. I've heard someone say Christianity is not a destination you arrive at but a journey . I'm sure glad God is with us on the journey!

Hi DJS, I'm going to take your post at face value – and believe you really are mulling things over. I would like to mention a few things that may help you in your decision making process. The main thing is that YOU have to come to the decision YOURSELF. And in order for you to do that you're going to have to evaluate things YOURSELF. There must be some things bothering you in order for you to feel a decision has to be made. Maybe you're even able to define the issue/issues that make you wonder "Should I stay with TWI?" My concern is that your decision to stay/leave is based on YOUR solid reasons and not your groundless fears or confused thinking. During the crisis after Geer read "Patriarch" when TWI people [myself included] would argue about the status of the ministry, what should be done, questions on doctrine – someone would always say "the integrity of the Word is at stake." Looking back I now re-interpret that to mean "the integrity of TWI is at stake." I have no problem believing the Bible is truth. But I have a big problem with TWI's interpretation and application on some of it. Sometimes it's helpful to write down the issue/issues, fears and thoughts that concern you – get them out in the open - defined. And it may take awhile. Sometimes I see critical thinking as a hunter tracking down each thought and idea for its origin, logical conclusion, and reasons to support or reject it, implications, etc. Remember in PFAL VPW recommends setting aside all other reading material for 3 months - to read nothing but the Bible? I'll go a step further in my suggestion to you – get another Bible – one that doesn't have any notes – maybe even try a few different translations. Remember Acts 17:11? VPW refers to it in PFAL. In the New Living Translation it reads, "And all the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were teaching the truth." So many times TWI people would throw at me "you're being deceived – remember how Eve questioned God's Word?" Okay – if you're going to accuse me of questioning then let's get it right: I'm questioning TWI's handling of God's Word. In Matthew 15: 1- 9 Some Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus why his disciples disobeyed their traditions. Jesus replied that they nullified the direct commandment of God by their traditions, "they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings" [New Living Translation]. I am not saying TWI is wrong concerning everything in the Bible. I'm not saying I have the correct interpretation and application of everything in the Bible. What I am saying is I see a BIG GAP – a big difference – between the Bible and TWI's doctrine/operations on what I think is important stuff [important to God and Christian living]. Things like Jesus Christ's role in the church, church government, handling scandals and controversies, sin, faith/prayer, research, leadership training, money – well, basically it's things that impact our lives on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong – there's nothing wrong with churches and Christian organizations trying to help people live the Christian life. I think there's something terribly wrong when the people who run things act like they are Christ and rule with an iron hand and have such a rigid framework of thinking in place as to be impervious to the Spirit of God. Of course, that's just my opinion I may be wrong. Well, wrapping this up I'd like to leave you with another idea. Think about the apostle Paul. He was a fine upstanding Pharisee – he knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. One day he's on the road to Damascus – and the resurrected Jesus Christ witnesses to him. The Bible doesn't mention anything about what went on in his head after his conversion. Interesting though, for a staunch Pharisee whose doctrine had no place for Jesus Christ – we find Christ now has the starring role in his New Testament documents. Perhaps after his conversion Paul did some re-thinking of what he was taught, questioning assumptions he had, etc. Sometimes people think questioning their beliefs or something in the Bible is wrong. Do you think so? Do you see a difference between questioning God in an act of defiance/mistrust and questioning God for a better understanding? Just some things to think about as you open the Bible and work on your decision.

Thanks for sharing, Bagpipes - the stuff in this and many other threads is WHY I come to Grease Spot! Morgan, Wayfer Not and Belle mentioned counseling – and I personally will vouch for professional counseling helping to sort things out. I grew up in an extremely dysfunctional family, and on top of that, depression runs in my family. I say this to let you know TWI didn't screw me up in the first place – but it sure helped to make matters worse. ChasUFarley and Rascal shared some helpful thoughts: Share, connect, allow yourself to be human, God equipped you with emotions, we all go through different stages in our recovery and experience different emotions…After leaving TWI I tried to handle all my mental baggage from only an intellectual level – and by myself. I was pretty good at suppressing my feelings and would lose myself in my job with as much devotion as I gave TWI. Fortunately, my wife loved me enough to threaten to leave me if we didn't see a marriage counselor [which we did] and see a psychiatrist for depression [which I did]. If I have anything, further to add for helpful hints on recovery it is that YOU are the key element in the PROCESS. That may be obvious to you but let me explain [and the Café knows how I love to do that]. What has been my shortcoming in the recovery process has been thinking I can dissect all my mental baggage with a cold, clinical, objective, analytical [okay – I can't think of any more words] approach – and do that by myself. I'm realizing there's a whole lot of emotional stuff, feelings, memories, relationships that I have to deal with as well – that's why I capitalized "YOU" – it's the whole you [intellect, emotions, memories, etc.]. The other word I capitalized above was "PROCESS" – I call it that because there's some work you have to do. Yeah, you're gonna pray and ask God for help [that's part of the process] – but maybe it's like how we learn to walk. Our parents may have held us up at first – but we eventually got the idea and feel of using our own muscles and coordination. Part of the process for me is coming to Grease Spot. Sometimes I just read, sometimes I share. Sometimes my wife and I will talk about something we read on Grease Spot. My point in this is that a process is going on – whether you share on Grease Spot or to a spouse or friend – you're having to articulate the stuff that's churning inside. And you may get feedback and a different perspective from your audience.

I was reading some information on Gnosticism - and saw some similarities with TWI. The following is from "The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible", Merrill C. Tenney, General Editor on Gnosticism: It is "a term derived from Greek 'gnosis', knowledge, and variously applied to movements within, or in relation to, early Christianity…There are, however, certain common features, among them a dominating concern with knowledge… …Anyone who reads through the books of Irenaeus or Hippolytus against heresies will be struck by the wide variety of these movements. There are Gnostic systems which make testing intellectual demands, others which depend on mumbo-jumbo and sleight of hand. There are Gnostic leaders who are…high-minded ascetics, and others who are licentious charlatans. Nevertheless, they all offer knowledge – and in a form or degree not to be found outside their own teaching… …Evil is associated with matter, ignorance, formlessness, distortion. Consequently salvation is to slough off defilement rather than to receive forgiveness for offenses. Salvation comes as illumination dispelling ignorance, triumphing over the material… …Some schools divided mankind into three according to the predominant element in their constitution – the material [who were unsalvageable], the 'psychic' who could receive some purification, and the spiritual, the elite capable of receiving the deep mysteries. Naturally the third class were the Gnostics, the mass of Christians forming the second class. The church becomes the club of the illuminated not the society of the redeemed… …The view that the material is the seat of evil, leads to asceticism, celibacy and vegetarianism in some systems, and paradoxically to license in others, where 'liberation' from matter meant its effects were inconsequential." From "The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia," Geoffrey W. Bromiley, General Editor on Gnosticism: "The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy…The Gnostics claimed to be the elite, the wise, the philosophers, to whom was revealed a secret knowledge which the overwhelming mass of mankind could never know… …The following may be regarded as the chief points in the Gnostic systems… a claim on the part of the initiated to a special knowledge of the truth; a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and as the special possession of the more enlightened, for ordinary Christians did not possess this secret and higher doctrine. The essential separation of matter and spirit, matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen…the teaching, on the one hand, of asceticism as the means of attaining spiritual communion with God, and on the other hand, of an indifference that led directly to licentiousness." Concerning sin Christian doctrine described it as an evil which "is the refusal of the creature to lean absolutely and utterly upon God, on His care and love and upholding grace. Sin is defiance of God; it is moral transgression; its magnitude cannot be exaggerated – it would dethrone God if it could…But in Gnosticism sin is something quite different; it is only a physical fact or quality inherent in the body and in matter everywhere. Redemption, therefore, does not consist in the work of Jesus Christ for us on the cross, and the applying of the benefits of that work by the Holy Spirit in the renewal of human moral nature. Redemption is simply each person's efforts to secure emancipation from the flesh – from physical evil."

"We're all out of the Cult now," [said in a Mr. Fletcher voice]

A variation of allan w.'s: people in lifeboats yelling at corps straightening deck chairs on the Titanic, "are you guys out of your effin minds?!!"

WhiteDove: "I agree so examine it! but as I said either it is true or it is not. How one uses truth does not change the fact that it is true. That's like saying how one uses a gun changes the fact that it is a gun. If you use a gun wrongly it is the wrong use of a gun nothing more If you use the bible wrongly it is the wrong use of the Bible nothing more." If the Professor on Gilligan's Island dismantles a Beretta 92 FS 9mm Semi Automatic Pistol – uses every part to fabricate a very complicated mousetrap – is the Beretta still a gun? If it was very effective in catching mice, providing food for Survivors [oops – wrong show] – is that a wrong use of the gun? If you used a Bible for kindling in your fireplace – is it still a Bible? WhiteDove: "It is because that is what by nature truth is. If it was not then it would not be truth now would it? You are right he was refuting the attempt to use that which was true (truth) dishonestly. But that does not make it not truth. It makes it a dishonest use of something that is true. 2+2=4 that is true if I were to tell you it was 8 you could refute me (as Jesus did) and say no it is not it's 4 and here is why, but my misuse of truth does not make the answer no longer 4 now does it. The devil quoted that which was true his motive however was not well intentioned Jesus never said his words were not true he responded to his motive." The devil just quoted the verses in Psalms? He did nothing else but quote truth?

Okay – before I roll out my usual long sermon – let me apologize for the preachy, cold, and formal nature of my posts. It's going to take me awhile to adjust to the atmosphere of the Café. Since I left TWI in 86 I have pretty much kept to myself. You can't keep all this stuff bottled up inside… I sure hope no one is taking me that seriously. Like I said before – I haven't figured everything out, I don't want a group following me. I keep trying to figure out what I'm doing here and never thought there was much value in looking back on my TWI years. But I feel there's some valuable lessons to learn that will make my life better. Therefore, now we proceed to the entertainment portion of our show… I have to take issue with WhiteDove saying: "When the devil quoted scripture it was truth (God's Word) The words he spoke were true his motive however was not. Unfortunately for the devil Jesus had taken the time to learn scripture so no he did not learn anything as he already had learned it. Had he not known the scripture already,( given the fact that the words but not the motive were true) he could have learned something by the devil quoting God. Truth is truth regardless of who shares it or their good or bad moral character. It's just easier to swallow when the moral character is good. If a car is sitting on the street it is still a car if a priest or a rapist says hey there is a car sitting there." The devil suggested Jesus throw himself off the Temple and referred to Psalm 91: 11 & 12 implying God's angels would catch him. The words were "true" – in that the devil quoted from Scripture. Jesus quoted Scripture back to him, referring to Deuteronomy 6: 16 – don't test God! Both quoted Scripture. Were they both right? So how is truth still truth regardless of who shares it? It looks like Jesus was refuting the devil's attempt to twist Scripture out of context, out of harmony with other Scripture. Read II Corinthians 4: 2 where Paul talks about the ministry and renouncing secret and shameful ways, not using deception, not distorting the Word of God – we all know that can happen![new bumper sticker: "Cults Happen"] Yeah, okay – there's a car over there – you're right – it's still a car whether a priest or a rapist points it out. But wouldn't you be a little concerned about their motive or moral character if either one of them invites you into their motor coach?

Can't think of any recurring dreams right now – but after seeing GeorgeStGeorge's picture of the Green Lantern reminds me of a dream I had with super-powers. I'm flying around some big skyscrapers, executing all kinds of rolls and dips – thoroughly enjoying the ability to fly. From my bird's eye vantage point, I spot a fire in a building and quickly zoom over to it - touchdown right in front of a firefighter working a high-powered hose on the blaze. Being master of the obvious, I offer my services in the rescue efforts by boldly announcing to the firefighter "I can fly." To which the firefighter quickly declined by saying, "That's okay, son, we've got it handled."

I think WordWolf nailed this one saying: "The Bible should never be used as a substitute for God. The Bible-regardless of what certain criminals said-is not God, and never was. The Bible MAKES KNOWN God. Anything that MAKES KNOWN God should never be confused for God HIMSELF. This leads to worshipping the created thing rather than the CREATOR. (Romans 1.) The brass serpent was raised in the wilderness, at the direction of God Almighty. It was very useful, and was meant for healing from the God that heals. So, that showed an aspect of God for the people, YHWH-Rapha, YHWH Who Heals. However, some people later worshipped the brass serpent. What was the proper response then? Trash it and smash it to pieces. It was now leading people AWAY FROM GOD." What WordWolf described is a subtle process [which I think happens quite often unbeknownst to leaders and followers of many Bible-based groups] – that is the pathway to idolatry. "Webster's New World College Dictionary" defines "idolatry" as "excessive devotion to or reverence for some person of thing." Speaking for myself – I was a great idolater in my TWI days. I remember the devotion I had to VPW, LCM, and other stooges and the high and holy position that I had elevated PFAL stuff to – being on par with Scripture! I had lots of idols. This can be a tricky one to catch – because it happens in our heads. Ezekiel 14: 6, 7 mentions this, "…This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his HEART…" Idolatry is an "inside job." It reminds me of Jesus' comments on adultery in Matthew 5: 27 & 28 – he said if anyone looks at a woman lustfully they have already committed adultery. It starts in the heart. That somehow makes me think of a johniam's quote in this thread: "People look at a Playboy centerfold to become sexually aroused, and people look at the bible to see God revealed. There, see it?" Maybe there is some truth in that. For a guy, the nice thing about looking at a Playboy Centerfold is that he doesn't have to worry about any relationship with the woman in the picture. There's no messy emotional involvement or commitment required of him by the picture. Maybe sometimes we do the same thing with the Bible. We read it, get an idea of what God is like, seeing Him from a distance, and go no further in developing a relationship with Him. And so we have a fantasy [idol] of having a relationship with that picture of God – a relationship based on our own rules. That's why for me being a study-bug I have to remind myself sometimes that the Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible Know-it-All].

Yeah, Belle - that is EXACTLY what we're discussing - and thanks for sharing - nice post!

Doojable, that is a very strong point you have [if Jesus was God, knowing the outcome of things - wouldn't it make it easier for him to sacrifice his life]. I also like your pointing out that Jesus didn't have an identity crisis – but obviously some of us [myself very much included] do in trying to figure out who he was/is. Sometimes I think what's more at issue in the "Jesus: God or not debate" is the validity of what he did for us. And I think that is something that is dealt with on a very personal basis by each of us. On each side of the debate Christians muster up Scripture and logic to prove their point [that he's God/not God] – and maybe what they're saying sometimes is "I am a Christian, I accepted Jesus as my Lord, and what he did means a lot to me because he's God/not God."

One problem I have with "the law of believing" is that the term does not appear in the Bible. Another is that it suggests a force so powerful even God must give way to it. If I remember right, VPW asks in PFAL if you've ever heard of someone setting the time of their death. Then he says God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate them. "The New Bible Dictionary" J.D. Douglas, Editor, mentions this under "Faith": In the Greek Text the characteristic construction for saving faith is the Greek verb "pisteuo" followed by the preposition "eis". Literally, this means to "believe into." It denotes a faith, which, so to speak, takes a man out of himself, and puts him into Christ [used in John 3: 16 "whoever believes IN him"]. Sometimes "pisteuo" is followed by "epi" which has the idea of "upon" [used in Romans 4: 11 "Anyone who trusts IN him will never be put to shame"]. Faith has a firm basis – God! I like Raf's post "I believe in God. He honors believing" because I think it's the right perspective on this thing called believing. Our belief must have the right object and basis. Proverbs 3: 5 says "Trust in the Lord" – not trust my own believing.

I totally agree with Jeff USAF RET's thinking – if Jesus, being God, used his divine power to do everything it cheapens his sacrifice and negates any reason for us to identify with him as a human. However, I do believe Jesus Christ IS God and was also a human that walked the earth – but have a different assumption as to the means of his accomplishments – which I think does not demean what he did - instead it reveals phenomenal restraint and unselfishness on his part. I don't think Jesus ever drew on his divine powers for selfish reasons – in other words to make his job any easier. After fasting for 40 days he was tempted by Satan to change stones into bread – he didn't [Luke 4: 1-4]. In Gethsemane, as his arrest was happening, one of his companions reached for a sword to defend him. Jesus told him to put the sword back and added he could call on the Father to put twelve legions of angels at his disposal [Matthew 26: 47-54]. I don't see any indication in Scripture where Jesus used his divine powers to make his mission a walk in the park, to lessen the sting of blows dealt by the Roman soldiers or be anesthetized from the excruciating pain of crucifixion. I read in Philippians 2: 5-8 that Jesus being in the very nature of God, made himself nothing [literally "emptied himself"] taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Welcome to the Cafe, litlome - thanks for sharing! I like your attitude: "We discussed at length why we had to stay with the Way (some of us for a good 15 years!) and where God had been. For me, and for many of my friends, there is no doubt that it was God who led us to the Way, despite the wrong teaching - too many signs and wonders to doubt that and maybe our other alternatives would have been darker- just like it was God again who opened our eyes and showed us that it was time to move on with a mass exodus.No hard feelings, though." Sometimes God worked through people in TWI - sometimes in spite of people in TWI.

What is the relationship of faith and reason? I read about a contrast between blind faith and biblical faith in "Smart Faith: Loving Your God with All Your Mind" by J.P. Moreland & Mark Matlock. "Faith is now understood as a blind act of will – a decision to believe something independent of reason or as a simple choice while ignoring the lack of evidence for what is believed. In contrast, biblical faith is a power or skill to act in accordance with the nature of the kingdom, a trust in what we have reason to believe is true. This is faith built on reason." Let me get my bs out of the way – then discuss amongst yourselves. I'd like to get some Café feedback on this one. I try to find analogies to help me understand something but I'm hard pressed with faith and reason. I imagine their influence as a pilot and passenger periodically trading places on a plane. Sometimes faith is flying the plane and reason is a passenger. Sometimes reason is flying the plane and faith is a passenger. What are your thoughts on faith and reason?

I think sometimes we can make things so complicated as to "outsmart" ourselves [in ancient T-Bonia "outsmart" meant, "to be confused, befuddled, bewitched, bothered, and bewildered"]. I personally like E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible with a gazillion notes per page – but I tend to get bogged down in so many details and sometimes miss the simple and obvious message. I figure God has put the Bible together in such a way as to be accessible, relevant, and enlightening to anyone curious enough to open it [and their hearts] – regardless of their level of intelligence – furthermore the Holy Spirit has a key role in our understanding of the Scriptures [Psalm 119: 18, 27; 147: 19; Matthew 16: 13-19]. I've come across some helpful pointers - a few of which I'll list below [along with the source]. From "What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures" by Jay E. Adams: Discovering the intent of the Holy Spirit ought to be the goal of all Bible study. A correct interpretation is one that accurately mirrors the thought that God had in mind and had written by inspiration. We should always seek to find the purpose in Scripture – what God intends for it to do to the reader. A simple example: The great purpose of the Gospel of John is to bring someone to saving faith, to get them started in an eternal relationship with God [John 20: 30, 31]. Whereas I John is geared more for strengthening the existing relationship believers have with God . From "Understanding the Bible" by John R.W. Stott: Look for the natural sense [the obvious, logical meaning] Look for the original sense [historical, cultural, and grammatical]. Look for the general sense [in harmony with the rest of Scripture]. Another interesting book [because of its negative approach] is "Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible" by James Sire. Something a little meatier are books on systematic theology. I may have to read slower – or break out the dictionary – but who cares – I find neat stuff in some – and don't have to agree with everything they say! I like the following one because it gets me THINKING ABOUT THE WAY I THINK about Scripture. The following from "Christian Theology" by Millard Erickson: Christian theology has a definite world-view. A believer philosophizes from the position that Scripture is true, that the Bible clearly affirms a theistic understanding of reality [Hebrews 11: 3]. Philosophy should be thought of primarily as an activity – philosophizing – rather than a body of truths. It is potentially capable of functioning from any perspective and with any set of data. Hence, it is a tool that can be used by theology. Philosophy can help us ferret out the presuppositions behind an idea or a system of thought and sometimes expose erroneous logic. Erickson recommends that theologians should only give appropriate credence to any particular theological statement – in other words – only give them the proper weight they should carry in our belief system. He then lists 6 degrees of authority in descending order – but you'll get the idea if I just mention a few key ones. The first is "direct statements of Scripture are to be accorded the greatest weight. To the degree that they accurately represent what the Bible teaches, they have the status of a direct word of God. Great care must of course be exercised to make certain that we are dealing here with the teaching of Scripture, and not an interpretation imposed upon it" ["God is love." I John 4: 16 would be in this category… T-Bone]. The next one down in authority is "direct implications of Scripture are to be given high priority. They're slightly less authoritative than direct statements, however, because the introduction of an additional step [logical inference] carries with it the possibility of interpretational error." Lowest in authority on Erickson's list is "outright speculation, which frequently includes hypotheses based upon a single statement or hint in Scripture, or derived from somewhat obscure or unclear parts of the Bible, may also be stated and utilized by the theologians. There is no harm in this as long as the theologian is aware and warns the reader or hearer of what he is doing. A serious problem enters if these speculations are presented with the same degree of authoritativeness attributed to statements of the first category listed above." This systematic theology stuff is useful for checking out your own thinking. What we think is important because it governs the way we act. I think God gave us His Word because He wants to draw us into a transforming relationship with Him. Here's something that helps me with personal application of the Bible. It's from "Living by the Book" by Howard G. Hendricks & William D. Hendricks. It gets me reading with an active mind – nine questions for personal application when you read the Bible: Is there an example for me to follow? Is there a sin to avoid? Is there a promise to claim? Is there a prayer to repeat? Is there a command to obey? Is there a condition to meet? Is there a verse to memorize? Is there an error to mark or avoid? Is there a challenge to face? I've saved the best tip for last. Proverbs 9: 10 " The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Wow – this is a great topic!!! What was it that made me want to leave? Silence. After Geer detonated his "Passing of the Patriarch" TWI leadership hovered in crisis-management mode for some time. I remember thinking the fate of TWI rested on the status of the board of trustees. I also remember my frustrated efforts to find out what was going on at headquarters. By December 1986 my wife and I were so tired and utterly confused by the double-talk, spiritualizing, and blame shifting that WE ALL were doing. We decided to try something drastic – resign from our position as branch coordinators. However, let me clarify our motivation to do that, which will undoubtedly disappoint the hero-worshippers out there. Let me also say this is not the point at which I intended to leave TWI. We resigned from our leadership position because we felt it was not honest to represent an organization that kept us in the dark about its operations [like TWI having all the clergy meet to go over Patriarch/Geer stuff but not inviting corps]. I think that also our resignation was a cry for help, expressing how serious we felt about getting some information – as a wife would threaten to leave her workaholic husband unless he starts paying attention to her. In January 1987, I wrote a 2-page letter to our corps coordinator and LCM announcing our resignation as branch coordinators but also asked many questions about what was going on, what was being done, etc. Never heard back from our corps coordinator – but did get a response from LCM in February. It was short and sweet – take out the Epistle-like greeting and it was one sentence saying he hoped TWI could win my trust back in the future. THAT ladies and gentleman started the ball rolling! Silence! [Kind of odd – how can I put an exclamation point after the word "silence"? The thespian spirit just whelps up inside me.] With no real response from the man in charge of the bozos on this bus, I was left to my own devices. My simple plan was to investigate VPW's doctrine and credentials. For a while, my wife and I were still going to the twigs in our former branch – but you can imagine how the awkwardness grew. Especially so, as I would discover serious flaws in PFAL stuff and VPW's bogus claims of scholarship [like the letter I posted on another thread – from Moody Bible Correspondence School saying it had no record of VPW completing any courses through them]. Eventually we quit going to twig – although we did keep in touch with a few of the local believers – and answered "crazy mail" from our friends still in the corps, who were saying things to us like we're deceived by devil spirits, possessed, and we're quitters. You know, I probably would still be in TWI if LCM would have laid a little bs on me – quoted some Bible, appealed to me ego ["You're Corps dammit!"], or promise me a more comfortable cot at corps week. I'm no expert on cults or why the mass-exodus after the Patriarch bomb – but I am the foremost expert on T-Bone's 12 year involvement with TWI. I draw on some analogies to make sense of it and sort things out. I think for some people the experience of leaving TWI is like the apostle Paul's crisis on the way to Damascus [Acts 9: 1-30]. He was a Pharisee, zealously persecuting the church, having the Pharisee-Slant on the Old Testament [Philippians 3: 4-6]. Then, one fateful day, as he's riding on his high horse and the resurrected Jesus confronts him! Paul didn't throw out the Old Testament or quit believing there was a God. I think what he did do was start dismantling his Pharisee-influenced belief system. In Luke 11: 52 Jesus said woe to the experts in the law, because they have taken away the KEY to knowledge. The leadership who should have opened people's minds concerning the law obscured the people's understanding by their erroneous theology. For Paul and others crawling out from under the religious rubble it's an exciting revelation that Jesus Christ is THE KEY to knowledge. Working out the details and sorting through the mess will take some time. Kenneth Wuest in "Galatians in the Greek New Testament" in his comments about Galatians 1: 13- 24 suggests Paul spent three years in Arabia after his conversion to spend a lot of time alone with God, "The revelation of the Son of God had blasted away the foundations of the Pharisaic thought structure which he had been building up with such consummate skill and zeal, and it had come tumbling down in ruins about his head. This revelation also furnished him with a another foundation upon which to build a new theological structure…There in Arabia, isolated from all human contact, alone with God, the great apostle restudied his Old Testament scriptures, not now with the Pharisee traditions vitiating his thinking, but, led by the Holy Spirit, with the central fact of the Cross of the Lord Jesus as the controlling factor in his meditations." And for all you movie lovers out there here's another analogy – one that has a double whammy. The first time I saw "The Matrix" I loved playing with the idea of Neo [Keeanu Reeves] experiencing what every person goes through after their conversion to Christianity – being unplugged from the world's system and awakening to reality. It wasn't until I joined Grease Spot that I toyed with another slant on "The Matrix." This interpretation I rename "The Way's Tricks." Probably other Café members have thought or talked about this [but I haven't taken the time to read all the threads yet – so anyway here goes]. You'll recall the purpose of all the pods containing people hooked up to The Matrix was to provide the Matrix with power. The people were like batteries for the Matrix. The Matrix had all these cables hooked up to each body for life support and even ran a program in their heads to help maintain brain activity. I think of how BUSY and OVERWORKED I was as corps in residence. I remember how afraid I was in the first few months of leaving TWI – the world was a scary place. I also remember an odd, exciting – good sensation – perhaps of one awaking from a long sleep.

After I left TWI at the end of 1986, I began investigating VPW's background. I called the Moody Correspondence School to check out his claim of taking everything he could take through their correspondence courses. Vivian Ruby of the Registrar's Office said they had no records of VPW completing a course. She added that doesn't mean he didn't purchase a course – but that he didn't complete a course. I asked her to send me that in writing on their letterhead – which she did. When I received it I hand-wrote at the bottom the reference page 175 of "The Way, Living in Love" where VPW made that claim. Scanned copy of letter below.

Allan, I don’t classify former or current members of TWI as “non-thinkers”. What I said was TWI had a tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. By that, I meant they discouraged critical thinking. And I was referring to my personal experience with TWI – for my 12 years of involvement I have to admit the “critical thinking” function of MY brain and TWI stuff was an atrophied muscle. What is critical thinking? A simple description is the mental process of analyzing, evaluating, questioning, and checking information coming into our heads – in order to ensure we’re making a good decision. It also involves reflection – we even can turn a critical eye inward – think about the way we think. Critical thinking is a vital tool that people use all the time – asking a sales rep lots of questions about a product, checking out a company to see if it would fit with our career goals before we apply for a job there, etc. When it came to me figuring out what model car to buy – my critical thinking was engaged. When it came to TWI stuff – I swallowed it completely – no questions asked. Why do I say TWI discouraged critical thinking in matters of faith? Here’s a quote from a handout LCM gave us in the Corps in December ’85: “If you think there’s any help outside The Way Ministry, if you think there’s anyone else out there standing on the accuracy of the Word of God, you’re wrong. They may have bits and pieces, but all of that is just a counterfeit; it’s crumbling; it’s dying. The Christian Fundamentalist and Evangelical world is a hodge podge of doctrinal confusion and ego.” I remember how I used to think – that there is no outside, no where else to go. About a year after I left TWI I read a book “The Closing of the American Mind” by Allan Bloom and found a quote in it: “Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even especially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.” Allan, I don’t think TWI had cornered the market on suppressing critical thinking. You said with my way of reasoning there must be numerous Trinitarian churches full of ‘non-thinkers.’ I’d like to refine that a bit by saying it doesn’t matter what church you look at – you’ll always find some who are there just because they’re following the crowd. Let me put it a different way: “The beliefs in your belief system are they yours – or someone else’s?” For instance I used to believe that Jesus Christ is not God – a belief I adopted from VPW’s book. Now I believe Jesus Christ is God - a conviction that I have come to after much personal study and reflection [critical thinking]. I don’t condemn people who think Jesus is not God. Who’s to say my critical thinking is 100 % right – no one’s is. I like Goey’s comments – “the trinity is not a big deal for me anymore…I don’t see where being Trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides…” My point in all this is that critical thinking is a powerful and vital tool! The way you’ve developed your belief system is important. In matters of faith I mindlessly adopted a belief system that was conveniently handed to me on a platter called PFAL. There’s a way I’d like to explain the difference between adopting another person’s beliefs and figuring things out for yourself. I liken it to my older brother giving me a 1967 Chevy Malibu [he paid only $200 for it and fixed it up for me] when I was 17 years old. It ran great and best of all – I got it free. Years later, having to spend my hard-earned money on a vehicle, I read Consumer Reports on the maintenance record of vehicles I was interested in, as well as test-driving them, talking to people who owned them, etc. – so I bought a Honda Accord. With the Chevy – the only choice I had was if I wanted to accept it or not. I bought a Honda after putting a lot of thought into what was important to me [low maintenance, options, cost, etc.]. Being a newcomer to Grease Spot Café here’s some thoughts of my Café experience thus far and why I come here. I haven’t figured it all out. I’m not trying to lead a bunch of people along the path of my way of thinking. I look at Grease Spot as a forum of critical thinkers. Why do I come here? Because it’s therapeutic. My signature line “exceeding abundantly above all the bs” is a GOAL of mine – I’m not there yet – and won’t be in this lifetime. Now there’s a big difference in the way I put thoughts together and communicate to others. In TWI my motivation in teaching and communicating was often to impress others with my knowledge or manipulate them to do something I thought they should do. I’m not saying I have pure motives now – I’m still self-centered. I come to the Café for healing, closure on my TWI years, and to develop my critical thinking. It’s painful to the ego but necessary for change and growth when people shoot down my bs.

Concerning the Trinity, I was raised Roman Catholic – with most of the Mass in Latin and full of ceremonies I never gave any thought to what the Bible was all about. Needless to say, I was easily impressed with Way believers quoting Scripture and explaining everything. While in The Way, I certainly believed Jesus Christ was not God. For that matter, I believed every doctrine of The Way. Things are a lot different since I left in 1986. I now believe Jesus Christ is God. I’m not about to present arguments for the Trinity. I will say this about the Trinity and so many other theological topics – they are but feeble attempts of finite man to understand and explain the infinite. I read about an analogy how Bible doctrines are similar to Botanical studies. A botanist goes out into the wild and gathers certain species and puts them together in one section of a Greenhouse. Theologians go through the Bible and gather together all the verses they THINK should be in the same group [salvation, prayer, Jesus’ humanity, Christ’s divinity, etc.]. And that’s okay – just allow me the same privilege – allow me to think! Thinking is a fun activity – and foreign to TWI. And that’s where I fault The Way - in their tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. When it came time to work on our research papers I recall LCM telling us not to try and re-invent the wheel – instead, draw our themes from PFAL. While in The Way I had The Way Slant on the Bible [interpreting everything through VPW’s glass eye]. There’s a very revealing quote from the September/October 1986 The Way Magazine: “The Foundational Class is the touchstone of truth from whence every handling of God’s Word, however basic or specialized, must germinate, grow, and blossom. It should be the standard of the study, application, and teaching of the Word of God.” Touchstone is any test or criterion for determining what is genuine or has value. The Way bred mental weakness in people as they accepted this faulty standard [PFAL] for truth. There’s something eerily similar with my thoughtless Roman Catholicism and my wholehearted acceptance of The Way’s doctrine. It’s probably the fact that I didn’t have to think with either one. Here’s a personal belief of mine: The Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. I also believe God gave us His Word to bring us into a transforming relationship with Him. Around the time when I left TWI, I remember reading Jeremiah 9: 23 & 24 – and it hit me. I saw a chasm – on one side was how much I knew [or rather thought I knew] about God. On the other side was knowing God. It’s the difference between reading an autobiography of someone famous and being their close friend. What freedom! I’m no longer bound to think of my Lord through the filter of a priesthood [whether Roman Catholic or German Plagiarist]. And It’s okay if others don’t think like I do.

What is the time limit when drafting a reply? It seems awfully short - after I'm done typing I click on "add reply" and I get error message I'm not logged in.

I understand TempleLady's comment on what makes sense sounds like a highly subjective call and Socks' saying subjectivity needs a standard. I agree. Dictionary definition of "sense" is the ability to think or reason soundly, normal intelligence and judgment; soundness of judgment or reasoning. something wise, sound or reasonable. Turning your brain off - as Tonto put it - is suppressing your critical thinking, reasoning, discernment, conscience. I don't think that's a good thing.

Thanks for the warm welcome...Bliss, I'm glad you liked my signature line - it was sort of inspired by this website - I love the way everyone is pretty much straightforward...Moony, thanks for the huge Cappuccino [it looks to be about 4 gallons - after that I could re-model my kitchen in under 3 hours]...After which I'm gonna need Belle's Monkey Bread to soothe the savage stomach.

Yeah Garth, I think the dissonance thing happens a lot. I've heard of another term "compartmentalization." On changingminds.org it's describe as a 'divide & conquer' tactic in the art of persuasion. It's a process for separating thoughts that will conflict with one another [different beliefs or conflicting values]. This goes back to Tonto's thread of "when did you turn your brain off?" We all remember times when we'd see or hear something we thought was morally wrong - or made no sense. And the "spiritual compartment" of our heads would say 'pipe down - renew your mind - you're not being spiritual minded.' I think faith and reason are allies - the Bible shows faith and sight to be in opposition.