T-Bone

Charity, great analysis in your posts! Like OldSkool said in the starter post, the current TWI is trying to coverup fallacies. The persistent problem as I see it, is that there are MULTIPLE issues in ‘the great principle’ (as it is in most of wierwille’s befuddling ‘theories’). wierwille’s interpolations* (see footnotes) of John 16 had taken unjustified liberties – inserting foreign ideas and speculating on stuff of which he didn’t have a clue. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” John 16: 12 – 15 Not that this would be biblically accurate but if I had to give a linear representation of a John 16 “flowchart” it would be: The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you trying to think of something catchy like ‘the great principle’ for this foursome maybe RSVP Trinity Plus One Or picking up on the flowchart concept – a river flowing – like the Guadalupe River but it would be Quadalupe River A flowchart is a modern construct…and I think if Jesus was indicating some type of movement – maybe it’s just that it all proceeds from The Father.…we’re talking about a mission - an important assignment carried out for a special purpose and it usually involves travel...ta-ta see ya around ... ...But anyway…that’s the bigger picture…the mission…we’ve been recruited for the mission…while on earth Jesus Christ carried out the mission…now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the mission through us. With the help of the Holy Spirit we bring people to Christ and Christ reconciles them back to the Father...On another thread I got into this a little bit - reflecting on my 12 years of involvement with TWI and how wierwille subverted the role of the Holy Spirit...instead of carrying out the mission that came from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit - I served a self-centered cult-leader and his agenda...I got off mission. damn that sucked We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know! And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know! Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly. Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?" ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion, the biggest problems are probably wierwille’s misconceptions as well as his anti-Trinitarian bias - instead of acknowledging the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) as part of the Godhead – wierwille mixes up the Spirit of truth with the Father. wierwille probably ‘borrowed’ from Bullinger’s The Giver and His Gifts; Or, The Holy Spirit and His Work: Bullinger, E. W.: 9781614276739: Amazon.com: Books anyway – Bullinger / wierwille differentiated God the Father as Holy Spirit and God’s gift – or ‘creation’ in you as holy spirit. Fundamentalism tends to take everything so literally. I can see why – when you have such a wooden interpretation. Note the prayer of the psalmist: Amplified Bible Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right and steadfast spirit within me. Psalm 51:10 Was the psalmist asking for God to literally create a new heart? Or could it have been like going to the Divine Designer and asking Him to take this old, dirty, and disorganized ‘interior’ and give it a fresh and neat new look? I’ve shared on other threads > here soul & spirit synonymous in Scripture and > here incorruptible seed refers to the Word of God which highlight the figurative…poetic…and non-technical narratives of the Bible…Bullinger and wierwille both had a tendency to squeeze the Bible so hard trying to make it fit into a preconceived mold of mathematical exactness and scientific precision...yeah mathematical exactness = 4 crucified ~ ~ ~ ~ Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal ! Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!! Try this – read the following and see if you can recall TWI’s slant on it: 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1: 13, 14 I remember wierwille teaching that our holy spirit is the down payment of our inheritance… but another way to look at it is that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer – to secure…preserve our salvation. The “seal” refers to an official mark on a document or contract – and thus under the authority of the person whose stamp was on the seal. The Holy Spirit gives us permission to participate in the fullness of God’s love, mercy, and work here on earth until we reach our future inheritance in heaven. ~ ~ ~ ~ Footnotes *Interpolation Interpolation (Definition, Formula) | Calculation with Examples (wallstreetmojo.com) Interpolate Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

There's nothing more exciting than getting a teaching together for Twig... ...preferably something out of the Blue Book.

Are you familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ? If you are - then you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit! Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21 ~ ~ ~ ~ Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17 He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie. ~ ~ ~ ~ 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15 Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied in John 7:17: “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. ~ ~ ~ ~ The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it." Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he was THE Holy Spirit expert. On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” ~ ~ ~ ~ So, I ask YOU who have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe? A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13 Or you could believe Jesus Christ – He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit CONTINUES the mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.

If you’re familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ, you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit! Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21 ~ ~ ~ ~ Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17 He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie. ~ ~ ~ ~ 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15 Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied in John 7:17: “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. ~ ~ ~ ~ The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it." Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he was THE Holy Spirit expert. On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” ~ ~ ~ ~ So, I ask YOU who have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe? A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13 Or you could believe Jesus Christ – He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit CONTINUES the mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.

I’ve got another inspirational chart from the Digestive Health Clinic - it says to put on beloved bowels of mercy

Yeeeaaaaahhh…not sure…I’ve heard of soul life referred to as the life-force.

What is the big attraction of wierwille and PFAL? There MUST be SOMETHING so alluring in there somewhere – but for the life of me, I don’t see it! It can’t be anything about wierwille – he exemplifies the voracious wolf, the false teacher, the charlatan extraordinaire, the trickster! It can’t be anything about PFAL – it’s got more holes in it than moldy Swiss cheese. ~ ~ ~ ~ Maybe some folks are fascinated with the idea of a manageable God / religion. In PFAL wierwille floated the idea: as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please. That is convenient! If you tell yourself, you love God and neighbor - you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT! It sure makes living the Christian lifestyle a lot easier. Pontificating and parroting pious platitudes are a breeze. ~ ~ ~ ~ I think what’s really going on in arguments over wierwille and PFAL stuff, is the right to believe in a manageable God / religion…who wouldn’t want that? Just imagine how easy being a Christian would be: You tell yourself: you love God and neighbor – and you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT! Now that’s something worth fighting for!

thinking about ‘the great principle’, I came up with more questions than answers. The following is a shortened/revised version of ‘the great principle’ as best I remember it: God (who is Spirit) - - > teaches His creation in you (your spirit) - - > your spirit teaches your mind - - > evidenced by what you do. What is spirit? What is the mind? What is the difference between the brain and the mind? Is there a difference between spirit and the mind? ~ ~ ~ ~ Though mind and brain are two terms that are understood to mean the same when used in the colloquial sense, there is a difference between mind and brain. There is certainly some difference between the two in their making. The brain is made of physical matter while the mind is not made of physical matter. To be more elaborate, the brain is made up of cells, blood vessels and nerves to name a few. Mind is nothing but the thought that resides in the brain. Apart from thoughts, the mind gives room for emotions, memories, and dreams as well. From: Difference between Mind and Brain | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms ~ ~ ~ ~ Mind or mentality is usually contrasted with body, matter, or physicality. The issue of the nature of this contrast and specifically the relation between mind and brain is called the mind-body problem. Traditional viewpoints included dualism and idealism, which consider the mind to be non-physical… …Psychologists such as Freud and James, and computer scientists such as Turing developed influential theories about the nature of the mind. The possibility of nonbiological minds is explored in the field of artificial intelligence, which works closely in relation with cybernetics and information theory to understand the ways in which information processing by nonbiological machines is comparable or different to mental phenomena in the human mind. The mind is also sometimes portrayed as the stream of consciousness where sense impressions and mental phenomena are constantly changing… …Broadly speaking, mental faculties are the various functions of the mind, or things the mind can "do"… …Thought is a mental act that allows humans to make sense of things in the world, and to represent and interpret them in ways that are significant, or which accord with their needs, attachments, goals, commitments, plans, ends, desires, etc. Thinking involves the symbolic or semiotic mediation of ideas or data, as when we form concepts, engage in problem solving, reasoning, and making decisions. Words that refer to similar concepts and processes include deliberation, cognition, ideation, discourse, and imagination… …The mental phenomena brought about by the faculties of the mind have been categorized according to various distinctions. Important distinctions group mental phenomena together according to whether they are sensory, qualitative, propositional, intentional, conscious, occurrent or rational. These different distinctions result in overlapping categorizations. Some mental phenomena, like perception or bodily awareness, are sensory, i.e. based on the senses… …Understanding the relationship between the brain and the mind – the mind–body problem – is one of the central issues in the history of philosophy, a challenging problem both philosophically and scientifically. There are three major philosophical schools of thought concerning the answer: dualism, materialism, and idealism. Dualism holds that the mind exists independently of the brain; materialism holds that mental phenomena are identical to neuronal phenomena; and idealism holds that only mental phenomena exist. From: Mind - Wikipedia ~ ~ ~ ~ …Major changes to the brain such as strokes, injuries, or conditions such as dementia can clearly affect and impair our psychological functioning. And more minor changes — such as those caused by the ingestion of drugs — clearly have very marked psychological effects too. But we have to remember that this casual relationship works the other way around, and that changes to psychological functioning cause neurological changes. This has not only been illustrated by the above research into CBT, but also by a massive amount of research into meditation and mindfulness. The phenomenon of neuroplasticity shows this too — that the brain is continually in flux and changes according to how we use it… …The brain and the mind exist in a symbiotic relationship, in which they both affect each other, but in which neither is entirely the other. As a result, to some extent, we have to treat them as distinct phenomena. From: Why the Mind Is More Than the Brain | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ On another thread I shared the following from Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology that made me realize what little I know about the Holy Spirit: In the realm of nature, it is the role of the Holy Spirit to give life to all animate creatures, whether on the ground or in the sky and sea, for “When you send forth your Spirit, they are created” (Ps. 104:30). Conversely, if God “should take back his spirit to himself, and gather to himself his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust” (Job 34:14 - 15). Here we see the role of the Spirit in the giving and sustaining of human and animal life. Parallel with this is the role of the Holy Spirit to give us new life in regeneration. Jesus told Nicodemus, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew (John 3:6 – 7; cf. vv. 5, 8; 6:63; 2 Cor. 3:6). He also said, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing” (John 6:63 NASB; cf. 2 Cor. 3:6; Acts 10: 44 – 47; Titus 3:5). Consistent with this life-giving function of the Holy Spirit is the fact that it was the Holy Spirit who conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary his mother (Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). And on the day when Christ returns, it is the same Holy Spirit who will complete this life-giving work by giving new resurrection life to our mortal bodies: “if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you” (Rom. 8:11). From page 636 of Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem end of excerpts The spirit…the mind…the soul…are we talking about the same thing? ~ ~ ~ ~ Alright…drum roll please…big finish…hey A/V guy in the back, show the brain map…forget about how spirit works with the mind – I’m fascinated to just look at this and try to understand how this mind / body symbiosis works…try chewing gum and looking at this picture at the same time

You have a point - followers becoming leaders - I’m thinking it works like that for a lot of things…I’m a self-taught bass player. At first I imitated my favorite bass players - playing along with the record…when I got comfortable doing that then the creative factor would kick in - eventually reinterpreting a bass line or adding my own riffs or even writing my own tunes. Another point to consider is who you choose to imitate. What’s noteworthy in the Bible is the transfer of modeling. It’s said of the Thessalonians they became followers - imitators of Paul and his associates AND of the Lord. See I Thessalonians 1:6 Ideally a good Christian leader inspires others to follow them - eventually as followers grow, they no longer need the example of other leaders - they become leaders themselves following the Lord Jesus Christ. Not sure if I’m expanding on your point - but I’ve seen and experienced both methods of modeling / imitation. The 2 most prevalent modeling / imitation methods in TWI - in my humble opinion anyway - are the wooden mini-wierwille clone and the imitator of Christ. Unfortunately the power structure of TWI favored the wooden mini-wierwille method cuz that’s how you get ahead and gain more power and influence… as for me - I’m not a type A personality, salesperson or leadership material- I’m more of a tech support and service guy - I love figuring things out, solving problems and helping others. If I could rewrite a fantasy version of a good TWI , I could see myself being a recording engineer and/or a technical advisor in a research department - I enjoy perusing systematic theologies and commentaries… but I said this is a fantasy - ain’t no way TWI would ever be interested in knowing what legitimate scholars and biblical linguistics and culture experts have to say!

Obviously your standards are a lot lower than normal Christianity - and is duly noted as another failed attempt to justify wierwille’s works - which are plagiarized material put through the incompetent delusional mixmaster of wierwille’s mind infused with Kool-Aid of fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism- it helps build a cultic mindset in so many nonsensical ways.

I have a hard time finding the right words too - or even trying to articulate some of this stuff...still exploring I miss Sirguessalot ! He always brought some great insight and thought-provoking ideas to Grease Spot.

Give yourself some credit too, Twinky…I know you – I’ve met you at the Texas BBQ and think a lot of your strength of character and enjoy hearing about the adventures of your street ministry – you represent all the good, honest, decent people I met while in TWI. What I was thinking when I said ‘ there’s a whole other type of awareness if one is into that stuff’ in a more general sense is that the corps program had – besides the decent folks – there were also opportunists, adulterers, sexual predators, crooks in the mix too – and they each are probably more alert to ‘ideal opportunities’ depending on their forte…a hunter knows where to find game.

On the 50/50 chance you might be trying to justify wierwille / PFAL , I will say this: Paul’s conversion is one example that might cover it both ways - he was a sinner receiving revelation while on the road to Damascus. Did that change his behavior? Most certainly. Even after conversion he described himself as the chief of sinners. But his life / behavior exemplified a changed person - so too with the apostles! And on top of that God authenticated their ministry with the signs of an apostle. And what was central to Paul’s life and message? Jesus Christ! That was who was absent in wierwille’s life and work. All God has to work with is sinners - you don’t need to point out the obvious. But where in the Bible do you find justification for God choosing to get His message out through unrepentant sinners? I think a strong biblical case can be made that there will be many deceivers and heresies in the world - Jesus, the gospel writers , Paul, Peter, Jude and others warned us about that….perhaps some cult followers didn’t get the memo. This isn’t that difficult to understand…unless…well…love is blind…for folks in denial they might want to ask themselves how enamored they are with wierwille and his works.

Every time this stuff comes up I cringe and shudder to think what a dumb-a$$ I was thinking I’m in a very spiritual place …meanwhile the X-rated soap opera played out behind the scenes…I guess there’s a whole other type of awareness if one is into that stuff…the secret life of adultery. and maybe there’s some differences in the men vs women viewpoint- generally speaking - since we’ve been on Grease Spot my wife and I talked about this stuff - she was more aware of some of the hanky panky that went on…but at the time neither one of us realized what a discombobulated phony baloney clusterfvck the way corps program was.

holy crap!!! I mean unholy crap - how did I miss that ?!?!?!

The credibility of wierwille’s legacy relies on the supposed 1942 ‘promise of God’ assigning wierwille the task of ‘accurizing’ the works of others. Imagine God giving wierwille the green light to plagiarize the works of others and furthermore God would help him tie it altogether and fit with the Bible perfectly – resulting in him teaching us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century. Reviewing wierwille’s works in a normal frame of mind some 37 years after forsaking a cultic-mindset, I find wierwille’s collaterals to be a discombobulated hot mess – the manifesto of a very delusional man. The incongruity of the whole 1942 promise should be alarming to any Christian…any serious student of the Bible! Why do I say that? Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity. Even if wierwille was clean as a whistle in 1942 and had no ill will – God’s choice of him in 1942 would suggest a number of disturbing-faith-shattering ideas – such as the following – and please note these are just a FEW of the many aberrant alternate possibilities in the spacetime continuum if the 1942 promise/God speaking audibly to wierwille really happened: 1. God doesn’t know the future – that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader. 2.God does know the future – He knew that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader – and God was okay with that...The 10 commandments suggestions are optional. 3.True Christianity was lost after the 1st century until a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader like wierwille came along to get Christianity back on track. 4.What Jesus Christ did way back when was important – but that was then – and this is now “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.”...if you can't comprehend that - just stick around - keep reading the collaterals, because what wierwille SAID is more important now. 5. God doesn’t care about the harm and pain wierwille caused...and God doesn't care about the shame wierwille brought to the name of Jesus Christ...and God doesn’t even care about the pain you have – the main thing is that we parrot wierwille’s pious platitudes…it’s the ABCs of Christianity: Always Be reading the Collaterals. 6. There really were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ. 7. The Bible really does interpret itself. ~ ~ ~ ~ When one removes the footing of wierwille’s authority and his logical fallacies/eclectic interpolations and his twisting of Scripture, wierwille’s dubious doctrines are de-feeted. The subterfuge of wierwille’s collaterals is a pretentious connection to reality. They are designed to keep one in mental busywork – it keeps one intellectually and emotionally occupied…and since most of it is nonsense and wishful thinking, there develops a repetitive cycle of frustration and a renewed commitment to making it work... 'rinse and repeat'…it’s predictable...monotonous…a repetition of thought processes and actions…that is not true Christianity! It is the way a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult keeps stringing followers along.

The credibility of wierwille’s collaterals relies mostly on the supposed 1942 ‘promise of God’ assigning wierwille the task of ‘accurizing’ the works of others. Imagine God giving wierwille the green light to plagiarize the works of others and furthermore God would help him tie it altogether and fit with the Bible perfectly – resulting in him teaching us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century. Reviewing wierwille’s collaterals in a normal frame of mind some 37 years after forsaking a cultic-mindset, I find wierwille’s collaterals to be a discombobulated hot mess – the manifesto of a very delusional man. The incongruity of the whole 1942 promise should be alarming to any Christian…any serious student of the Bible! Why do I say that? Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity. Even if wierwille was clean as a whistle in 1942 and had no ill will – God’s choice of him in 1942 would suggest a number of disturbing-faith-shattering ideas – such as the following – and please note these are just a FEW of the many aberrant alternate possibilities in the spacetime continuum if the 1942 promise/God speaking audibly to wierwille really happened: 1. God doesn’t know the future – that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader. 2.God does know the future – He knew that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader – and God was okay with that...The 10 commandments suggestions are optional. 3.True Christianity was lost after the 1st century until a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader like wierwille came along to get Christianity back on track. 4.What Jesus Christ did way back when was important – but that was then – and this is now “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.”...if you can't comprehend that - just stick around - keep reading the collaterals, because what wierwille SAID is more important now. 5. God doesn’t care about the harm and pain wierwille caused...and God doesn't care about the shame wierwille brought to the name of Jesus Christ...and God doesn’t even care about the pain you have – the main thing is that we parrot wierwille’s pious platitudes…it’s the ABCs of Christianity: Always Be reading the Collaterals. 6. There really were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ. 7. The Bible really does interpret itself. ~ ~ ~ ~ When one removes the footing of wierwille’s authority and his logical fallacies/eclectic interpolations and his twisting of Scripture, wierwille’s dubious doctrines are de-feeted. ~ ~ ~ ~ Well…that’s all for now, folks

will do - that's exciting Twinky !!!!

Yikes – I remember her being a hard-a$$ when I was at LEAD…she was on staff - getting on me to keep up with the group – I was really challenged having that 80-pound backpack on my little frame. Me and another corps brother would murmur about she’s trying to kill us by exhaustion being overburdened – not kidding – I wondered if one of us would have a heart attack.

Empathy is more than being sympathetic. Being sympathetic is feeling others’ pain, but not necessarily giving comfort. Empathy is the ability to feel the distress of others and to give them comfort. From: Empathy: giving comfort - (wellbeing.com.au) The collaterals often promoted disconnecting from reality. Right off the top of my head I think of wierwille’s Studies in Human Suffering – Job, from victim to victor…what a distortion of reality! In wierwille-theology, Job’s problem was fear – his lack of believing – that allowed the devil to harm his life and family – and when you take the Advanced Class wierwille gets into some next level bull$hit of demonology. To counter wierwille’s fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism, and his promoting the bogus law of believing - I suggest looking to other sources – experts in the biblical languages and cultures…some sources mentioned on another thread demystify the book of Job – it’s the age-old battle humankind wages with the pain, misery, and discomforts of life. Some things we can resolve – and with some things all we can do is acquiesce. Central to the book of Job is the question of human suffering – especially why people who are seemingly innocent suffer, which in turn raises the question about the righteousness of a loving God. Job deals with the question of retribution, the popular theology that the righteous prosper but the wicked suffer – this attempts to vindicate God – theodicy . Wisdom accounts of innocent suffering are found across the ancient Near East – which shows a universal concern from olden times and is still a contemporary issue...Empathy is humankind's ability to understand and share the feelings of another. No matter how you slice it and dice it - life is not perfect...there is pain and suffering...hardships...when folks pin their hopes and dreams on the law of believing they're really just hiding their heads in the sand. I believe God created us as social creatures - social ties help us thrive...the spiritual elitism promoted by wierwille is anathema to social connectedness that promotes happiness, physical health, mental health and general well-being. ~ ~ ~ ~ wierwille’s collaterals are devious in the way they undermine one’s faith in Jesus Christ and impair one’s ability to connect with others or to properly deal with reality...wierwille ideology pushes all-or-nothing thinking...one has only 2 options: either it's wierwille's way or the highway... Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia in the field of psychology is the perception of contradictory information, and the mental toll of it. PFAL claims what it teaches will increase one's prosperity...12 years of my involvement in running PFAL classes and financially supporting TWI had put a stranglehold on my finances and career... Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress...It's been my experience with the TWI-mindset that I actually brought on undue stress because the ideas and principles taught in PFAL / the collaterals did nothing to resolve the issue. The credibility of wierwille’s collaterals relies mostly on the supposed 1942 ‘promise of God’ assigning wierwille the task of ‘accurizing’ the works of others. Imagine God giving wierwille the green light to plagiarize the works of others and furthermore God would help him tie it altogether and fit with the Bible perfectly – resulting in him teaching us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century. Reviewing wierwille’s collaterals in a normal frame of mind some 37 years after forsaking a cultic-mindset, I find wierwille’s collaterals to be a discombobulated hot mess – the manifesto of a very delusional man. The incongruity of the whole 1942 promise should be alarming to any Christian…any serious student of the Bible! Why do I say that? Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity. Even if wierwille was clean as a whistle in 1942 and had no ill will – God’s choice of him in 1942 would suggest a number of disturbing-faith-shattering ideas – such as the following – and please note these are just a FEW of the many aberrant alternate possibilities in the spacetime continuum if the 1942 promise/God speaking audibly to wierwille really happened: 1. God doesn’t know the future – that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader. 2.God does know the future – He knew that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader – and God was okay with that...The 10 commandments suggestions are optional. 3.True Christianity was lost after the 1st century until a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader like wierwille came along to get Christianity back on track. 4.What Jesus Christ did way back when was important – but that was then – and this is now “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.”...if you can't comprehend that - just stick around - keep reading the collaterals, because what wierwille SAID is more important now. 5. God doesn’t care about the harm and pain wierwille caused...and God doesn't care about the shame wierwille brought to the name of Jesus Christ...and God doesn’t even care about the pain you have – the main thing is that we parrot wierwille’s pious platitudes…it’s the ABCs of Christianity: Always Be reading the Collaterals. 6. There really were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ. 7. The Bible really does interpret itself. ~ ~ ~ ~ When one removes the footing of wierwille’s authority and his logical fallacies/eclectic interpolations and his twisting of Scripture, wierwille’s dubious doctrines are de-feeted. The subterfuge of wierwille’s collaterals is a pretentious connection to reality. They are designed to keep one in mental busywork – it keeps one intellectually and emotionally occupied…and since most of it is nonsense and wishful thinking, there develops a repetitive cycle of frustration and a renewed commitment to making it work... 'rinse and repeat'…it’s predictable...monotonous…a repetition of thought processes and actions. ~ ~ ~ ~ It’s been shared elsewhere that much of wierwille’s collaterals is dogmatic fundamentalism at its best - a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. It is a mutant subset of a broader counter-culture movement, that used central doctrinal affirmations as a means of defining cultural boundaries. Certain major doctrines like the absolute literal authority of Scripture became barriers to alienate secular culture and give fundamentalists a sense of identity and purpose. A siege mentality - a defensive or paranoid attitude based on the belief that others are hostile toward one, became characteristic of the movement. This military-like-blockade-mindset is amplified by a devotion to wierwille’s collaterals…blockades and barriers – real or imagined impede connections and empathy. Sociologically, Fundamentalism - Wikipedia is a somewhat reactionary or unreceptive counter-cultural movement – whereas Evangelicalism - Wikipedia is a cultural movement focused on relevance and has a loose basis for self-definition. The element of irrationalism often associated with fundamentalism is lacking in evangelicalism which has produced significant writings in areas of the philosophy of religion and apologetics. New Living Translation You keep track of all my sorrows. You have collected all my tears in your bottle. You have recorded each one in your book…Psalm 56:8 Amplified Bible For He knows our [mortal] frame; He remembers that we are [merely] dust…Psalm 103:14 New International Version When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd…Matthew 9:36 Contemporary English Version Jesus understands every weakness of ours, because he was tempted in every way that we are. But he did not sin! …Hebrews 4:15 Contemporary English Version Finally, all of you should agree and have concern and love for each other. You should also be kind and humble…I Peter 3:8 Amplified Bible Rejoice with those who rejoice [sharing others’ joy], and weep with those who weep [sharing others’ grief]…Romans 12:15 ~ ~ ~ ~ See also: Empathy | Psychology Today Why Empathy Makes You More Helpful | Psychology Today Why is Empathy Important? - SELFFA Why Is Empathy So Important? - Lifehack That’s all for now, folks

YUP !

Bolshevik, you’ve got that right! “In a cult odd behavior is normalized” - this is a big deal !!!!! Even after some 37 years of leaving a cult, I can still recall the dramatic change I saw in a way corps sister while I was in-residence. She was beautiful and vivacious…always upbeat. One block she was assigned to work housekeeping which included the Coachman Suite (same job mentioned in Kristen’s book). Over time there was a transformation in her demeanor…seemed preoccupied at meals instead of her bubbly self…maybe a little melancholy…never thought much of it at the time – because we were all under a lot of pressure in the corps program anyway…and I'm a guy - and don't pay a lot of attention to things like that anyway - I was too busy trying to be macho and endure "every way corps challenge" …of course, it’s possible she was never sexually molested during that job assignment – but it’s difficult to settle the issue in my mind with all the other incidents I’m aware of now , personal observations and red flags that scream for attention… ...I’m no psychologist or mental health therapist – but in 69 years of living I can tell the difference between someone who has faced typical challenges in school or on the job and someone who has been traumatized. There’s little doubt in my mind – she was deeply wounded. I’m out of touch with those in my corps…Hopefully her and her family left TWI and her well-being has improved.

Just for the record, if wierwille’s ‘great principle’ is to be taken as a summation of the pattern in the Bible – then the postulate is wrong! summation = the process of adding all things together… wierwille’s ‘great principle’ does NOT take into account all Scripture. There are numerous Scriptures that defy wierwille’s ‘great principle’ – beginning with the most obvious event in Genesis 3 - God talking to Adam and Eve AFTER the Fall !!!!! If wierwille’s ‘great principle’ was designed to help students read the Bible with clear understanding – then wierwille’s ‘great principle’ is counterproductive, because it superimposes on certain passages a false description of how God works…The gaps in logic of God who is Spirit can only speak to what he is which is spirit and he teaches his creation in you & etc... not only overcomplicates and confuses a process – it also misrepresents how God works. Claiming wierwille’s ‘great principle’ was to help explain the established doctrine in the ancient scriptures is a false assertion for a couple of reasons: 1. There is no such thing as the established doctrine of the Bible – what group or organization was in charge of doing that? At best one can say the Bible is traditionally recognized as an ancient religious & sacred text. 2. Doctrine is a set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group; given the wide array of interpretations of the Bible it seems cautious to allow for freedom of thought and duty to one’s conscience to permit alternative viewpoints instead of being closedminded on one’s own ‘pet doctrine’. To claim that the ‘great principle’ was provided by God to us modern people, to help us understand better the ancient Biblical doctrine – is a deceptive way of imbuing it with divine authority – of which it has NONE…that’s why I’ve labeled it wierwille’s ‘great principle’ in this post - because it is based on his influence and we all know he was incompetent, a pathological liar, unabashed plagiarist, misogynistic, sexual predator, chain-smoking, drunkard, money-grubbing, megalomaniac, voracious wolf in sheep's clothing who had delusions of grandeur.

Noting the preponderance of testimonies of wierwille exposing himself might suggest he had an insatiable desire for power and control: The power dynamic of the offender’s exposure and their desire for control is also often a significant reason behind their actions. Turner, for instance, cited the prevalence of sexual offenders in prison who expose themselves to women staff members “as a form of power and control.” From: What motivates men to expose themselves to women without consent? (mic.com) See also: Sexual harassment: Why do men expose themselves? It's about power (usatoday.com) Why do men expose themselves? It's about power, attention and control, psychologists say | wtsp.com Paraphilias and Mental Health (webmd.com) Exhibitionism | Psychology Today Are We All Perverts? | Psychology Today

Excellent doctrinal point, Cman! It’s been shared on other threads that many Biblical scholars like Wayne Grudem in his Systematic theology , chapter 23, The Essential Nature of Man, pages 472ff - Scripture uses “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably. I think wierwille misled and confused a lot of folks by his dogmatic fundamentalism of interpreting death of the spirit as something literal However consider how the ancient Hebrews defined death: 15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. 16 Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 15-17 NET Notes on verse 17 in my Net Bible: Second Beta Edition read: Heb. “dying you will die.” The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, “when you eat…you will die.” That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute. The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (dying spiritually, you will then die physically). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined. Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God. Both occur with sin, although the physical alienation is more gradual than instant, and the spiritual is immediate, although the effects of it continue the separation. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ The following is a summary of some stuff about death that I read in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Kindle Edition - location 45009ff of the Kindle version: Because death did not immediately befall Adam and Eve on the day of transgression, but took hundreds of years later the expression “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (as it so reads in Gen. 2:17 KJV ) must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy Gen. 3:15 . However, the Bible Encyclopedia states Gen. 2:17 may be showing a close connection of violating God’s commandment and the resultant consequences thereby attaching to death a religious and ethical significance and makes the lives of humankind dependent on obedience to God. The religious-ethical nature of life and death is not only decidedly and clearly expressed in the early chapters of Genesis, but we find it is the fundamental thought in the entire Bible and forms an essential element in many of the declarations of salvation. The Encyclopedia goes on to say some theologians past and present have denied the spiritual significance of death and have separated the connection of between ethical and physical life, usually base their opinions on passages that show death as a punishment for sin Rom. 5:12 Romans 6:23 I Cor. 15:21 …this opinion has some merit though – since we are made aware of the consequences of the weaknesses and frailty of human nature Job 14:1 Eccl. 3:20 …For the most part death is portrayed as something natural. What is the meaning of death? The Encyclopedia states that we are influenced by the Greek Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal – but such an idea is utterly foreign to the ancient Hebrew concept of death – and is not found in the OT. The whole person dies, when in death the spirit Eccl. 12:7 or soul I Ki. 17:21 goes out of them. Death is not understood to be annihilation – as in complete extermination…utter destruction…obliterated, but rather deriving one of all that makes for life on earth. To the Israelites death meant separation from all that they loved – separation from God, and from His service, His law, His people, His land. The physical contrast between life and death gradually makes way for the moral and spiritual difference between life spent in the fear of the Lord, and a life in the service of sin. ~ ~ ~ ~ wierwille had a strong tendency to interpolate his trichotomy theory (body, soul and spirit) into many passages – and wierwille-followers would follow his lead. For instance, regarding 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Matthew 3 It’s been said by wierwille-followers that the day before Jesus was baptized he did not have something - that he did have the day after he was baptized and that’s why the word “Spirit” is used in that passage. However, it seems evident to me that the functional relationship of the Trinity is delineated in Matthew 3 – note the Father’s command to hear His Son and the Holy Spirit’s vindication and empowerment, anointing Jesus, commissioning Him for His ministry! ~ ~ ~ ~ Understanding death of the spirit as figurative seems more reasonable and appropriate in the context of evangelizing and even Christian counseling. Spiritual death is separation from God...think about that in the context of the second death mentioned in Scripture - that's eternal separation from God! Makes more sense to think of it this way - when we were saved our "dead spirit" - our separation from God was healed! We are reconciled back to God! Not by the introduction of something new - but by a reawakening ! We don't have to try and play God to determine if someone has Spirit or not - and we shouldn't assume everything is cool because they have Spirit. Because of the Fall the image and likeness of God is now tarnished - and it is from that point we start - assuming there is always a problem because we are fallen creatures in need of redemption, redemptive living and most of all we need the Redeemer Jesus Christ!