T-Bone

This is all my own theory and may be totally off the wall. I get the impression from Mike that he thinks we're like Pilate looking at Jesus [the Way, the Truth and the Life] and asking "What is truth?" So, I'm wondering – as much as Mike gets offended when we question him about what his message is – maybe we've got it wrong. At first I thought his message was something like "Come back to PFAL" or "PFAL is God-breathed" or "PFAL interprets the Bible" - - it's hard to pin down since he doesn't respond to direct questions concerning his message. But after reviewing this thread and the first PFAL thread and some of his posts on other threads – I've narrowed it down to what - in my opinion – is his message. Mike is the message. I underlined that sentence because I thought it was an important opinion of mine – I don't want anyone to get confused thinking I'm saying Mike is The Message [a paraphrase of the Bible by Eugene Peterson]. Or to put it another way, Mike interprets PFAL which interprets the Bible. I underlined that sentence because I thought it was an important opinion of mine – I don't want anyone to get confused thinking I'm referring to Mike's commentary of the same name. Perhaps that accounts for his occasional references to hanging out with scientists and PFAL editors. This would certainly lend credence to his intelligence and authority and will be found at the beginning of the commentary listing his credentials. Since Mike himself is the message – that would account for contradictions or even the fact that you can't pin him down on what he believes – it depends on how he feels that day.

Mike posted May 4 2006 2:26 AM [Mike's words in bold red] "doojable, You are ignoring all the civil conversation I have with a few, AND ignoring all the baloney that's thrown in my direction by some others. How can I take your advice seriously if you have on double blinders? I think that the ones I am harsh with deserve it, need it, and other more thorough observers need to learn from it in dealing with the baloney thrown at them. We're to be loving, but not doormats. I take my example from how Jesus was that man of steel and velvet. He took no baloney, had anger, and shoved hate back in the faces of some. He was also tolerant at times." Maybe you should also take the words of Jesus to heart so you can be an exemplary follower of his – Matthew 5:23 "…if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." And John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." I think it would be hypocritical to ignore the callous, vicious, and unchristian manner you deal with anyone that disagrees with you – and just continue having a polite "intellectual" conversation. Mike, I think you owe Doojable and Templelady a huge apology. They are both very intelligent, gracious Christian women. Doojable I recall from even my TWI days as a woman mighty in the Scriptures and powerful in loving deeds. I am always impressed by Templelady's posts and have grown fond of her after our playful banter on some Silly threads. I don't view either of these women [or anyone for that matter] in terms of what denomination they belong to – after awhile a person's character has a way of coming out – and in my mind becomes the dominant image of that person. I think about that anytime I post or have a face-to-face conversation. I think of the old line, "What you're doing is so loud I can't hear what you're saying." "I reject totally your advice because you seem to have these thick blinders on. Take them off and address the far greater doses of baloney that's thrown at me and you can get my attention." Mike, as I review threads and posts it looks to me like people are challenging an idea you've forwarded – like I did on an above post. Do you think my serious questions are baloney? "Otherwise you fit into the role of the "good cop" working with the riff raff here who play the role of the "bad cop." Do you get it? It's a good cop, bad cop team against my message being presented and your on the cops side. I am on the side of challenging the established order. You're with them and you can't fool me. I just don't buy your one sided approach. If I saw you gently scolding WordWolf, Tom Strange, and a few others for their reprehensible behavior towards me you would have some credibility with me, but you've totally blown it by often showing your bias and blindness. I'm not here to satisfy your stated intentions of wanting to see the children on the playground all getting along, while your actions are all calculated to thwart my message… Quit talking about me and get on track with the message and we can have a conversation, but I will not tolerate your trying to mold me into your wishes all the while rejecting and trying to subvert a very important mission I have." Mike, again it looks to me like people are trying to figure out what your message is by asking you specific questions. I don't mean to burst your bubble – but you're ruining a golden opportunity. People have asked you [myself included] to list your beliefs, explain your doctrine and clearly specify your message – and you chide them for not going back to PFAL and figuring out what YOUR message is. You're not helping your own cause. Mike, please – for the sake of your own mission: stand back and look at what you're doing – THAT'S what is thwarting your message.

In Praise of Strong Women – a variation of Footsteps in the Sand One night a man had a dream. He dreamt he was walking along the beach with his wife and the Lord. It was a glorious taste of heaven. The man loved the beach, the smell of the ocean, the sound of the surf, his loving wife by his side and the Lord walking in front of them. As the man gazed back on their footsteps in the sand – wishing this moment would never end – he stopped mid-stride. “What’s wrong, Babe?” she asked concerned about the grave look overcoming her husband’s face. She could see his eyes searching further and further back where they’d been and - - he seemed to be calculating something in the way he would roll his eyes up to one side. He was so lost in thought she had to ask again gripping his arm with emphasis, “What’s the matter?” The husband spun around so fast it startled his wife and even the Lord! His eyes darting back and forth from their distant footsteps to his wife to the Lord – back again. She could tell he was really trying to control his anger – as he began to speak she thought maybe he was suffering a stroke because of the way his words sputtered out. “Lord, I thought you said you’d always be with us if we committed our marriage to you,” the husband nervously said. “But as I look back at some of the most challenging times of our married life I see only two sets of footprints.” And then gathering a little more courage from blurting that out said, “Guess you were out there walking on the ocean – leaving us here to figure things out for ourselves.” Almost in unison the wife and the Lord hung their heads down – not out of shame or disappointment – but humility and extreme tenderness. The Lord placed a hand on each of their shoulders – gently pressing the couple closer together. Then, as he gazed down at the sand he softly spoke these words, “Don’t mean to burst your bubble there old friend – but those were the times I had your wife carry your sorry-a$$.”

Oh no Tom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't tell me you're having a bad case of the Mondays that's lasted till Wednesday !!!!!!!!!!!!!! here - drink quickly my friend - don't delay - the very joy of your soul is at stake - if that's what ails you - or is it you can have any drink you want at Steak and Ale?

Yes, Tom - geez I got the email on that...Boy, I can't wait for casual Friday...Oh - er - I may have jumped the gun on that - I'm currently wearing 30 pieces of flair.

Thanks, Tom - but I do have all of my old PFAL books, TWI reference material, and a modest research library - Tonto threatens to buy a bigger house if I keep adding on to it - I have slowed down quite a bit [although I will confess I just sent off for the 4 volume set of Norman Geisler's Systematic Theology and The New International Commentary on the Old Testament: Job from Christian Book Distributors]. Concerning the "assignment" - I intend to let Mike provide the evidence for his own claim.

Mike, I am very disappointed in both your condescending/insulting words to me and in dodging my simple question. I will not stoop to such a childish form of debate. You said you would address my request for your basic tenets of beliefs at a later time – WHY didn't you respond like that to my other question [on providing evidential support for your claim on the inaccessibility of ancient scriptures & etc.]? Perhaps the disparity of your responses eludes you – so I'll explain. I asked for a brief, concise, specific statement of your basic beliefs – 2 or 3 sentences. I would assume you already know what they are and could have easily posted them – but you gave me a rain-check on that. My other question which asked you to document the reasons for your bold assertion [for which I thought you would have given me a rain-check on] you jump right on and instead of providing any specific evidence – you ASK ME to look for it myself! Is that how research papers are submitted nowadays? A person posits a theory and conclusion – but the middle of the research paper is an empty page with the heading at the top "This page intentionally left blank – fill it in yourself after you find evidence to back up my claim." I have taken the time to break down your statement [listed below in bold red] followed by my question below it to give you some direction: The ancient scriptures Define both terms and specify time-frame. Provide specific names of texts/references. are not accessible, Define term and qualify. and the modern man-made reconstructions of them Define terms; specify time-frame and all reconstructions you researched. are FAR from definitive, Quantify terms and qualify standard of reference. shifting about constantly Define terms and quantify duration, occurrence, frequency. by the latest Specify time-frame theological fads Specify and qualify terms, provide standard of reference, list theological pedigree of each citation noting point of deviation from said reference. in translation and manuscript rating. Provide list of all translations and manuscript rating systems you researched. [edited for the intellectually challenged]

Mike - how is it you can't give me a short synopsis of your main beliefs but you awkwardly ATTEMPT to prove your assertion about the inaccessibility to ancient scriptures? And you still have NOT given me any specific evidence to support your claim! Please re-read your own quote in the above text [in bold red] - do I have to diagram the sentence for you? Do I have to define each word YOU used? You're the one making these sweeping claims - I shouldn't have to do the work for you to prove your point! You are the one that chose those particular words and phrases. Surely you're not just throwing them out there with no basis or reason! Do you understand the meaning of the words in your sentence? Are these your ideas? Can you cite specific instances that led you to conclude this?

Good point - Oakspear - and hey, that reminds me I've been meaning to ask you - did you ever ride on the Staten Island Fairy?

Well, Oakspear - I'm just glad I didn't suffer a Broke Back ...What?!?! - is there any rule saying I can't throw stones at myself?

No - Abigail - this happened in another state...But maybe the similarity of how your Limb Coordinator handled it he got out of the standard issue crisis-management book of double-talk given to leadership. :) Or maybe there's a freaky-someone-in-TWI-listening-to-a-teaching-tape-and-gets-rear-ended kind of a thing available for each state...

Mike, I must confess - I don't think I have the patience, endurance, and sharp critical thinking skills like WordWolf or Tom Strange - and to be honest maybe I'm a little lazy not wanting to read through your extensive posts on various threads. Quite frankly, I get lost in the things you say - it's very confusing - makes no sense...Would you be so kind to write out the basic tenets of your belief system...And I mean BASIC...I've done this myself on GSC - in several places - in two or three sentences...Please keep it short - and be specific, concise and clear.

Had a wreck while driving to work one morning listening to a TWI Sunday Night Tape. It was raining - I was stopped at a stop sign and a car behind me skidded into my rear-end [no jokes please ]...The next day when I mentioned this to my Twig Coordinator [Corps], she gave me the third degree on there was some kind of hole in my protective hedge of believing...Man - I puzzled over that one for days - going over every detail of the wreck - and what really bothered me was that I was listening to a TWI tape when it happened!

Mike, do you have documentation for your bold assertion?

Whoa - that's scary - I read their # 1 reason to check out their church: "We're waiting for you." Yikes!!!!!!!!! :(

Congrats from Tonto and me !!!!!!

Did TWI promote a realistic relationship with God? While in TWI I had the idea the normal Christian life was filled with signs, miracles and wonders; God talking to me on a regular basis – maybe even audibly someday if I was lucky; answered prayer with a consistency that would be the envy of every investment company; revelation guidance so clear that even if I was Balaam I couldn’t miss it. How were things like that encouraged at TWI? I don’t think it was outwardly intentional by anyone. I think it was conveyed at a subliminal level by the way VPW portrayed his relationship with God and how other leaders and even fellow-believers carried on the business of the ministry and of life – being very demonstrative yet matter-of-fact when speaking of the twenty things God told them to do before their first cup of coffee. I recall teaching situations with VPW [Advanced Classes or Corps settings] where he’d pause for effect – as if he had an ear piece with a newsbreak coming in – and say “Father says shut up, Wierwille.” And then he’d have another pregnant pause – and go on to something else. Wow – who wouldn’t want a relationship like THAT with God? I remember my W.O.W. brother from New York quietly reading his Bible – frequently piercing the silence with a loud exclamation, “Alright, Fadda!” as God illuminated yet another verse to him. I read something interesting in a book Four Arguments for the Elimination of TV – if memory serves me right, the author suggested how our imagination and expectation could be influenced by what we see on TV and the movies. He spoke of adolescents talking about their first kiss being nowhere near what they expected when compared to what they had already seen on a particular TV show or movie. I think the predominant image [courtesy of groupthink] of the TWI Christian life was a Cecil B. DeMille production extravaganza – full of special effects, mystical experiences, signs, miracles and wonders – filmed in Technicolor too! This wound up setting a false standard or ideal of what a relationship with God should be – and sets people up for a major disappointment with reality when they leave TWI. Here’s what I’m asking GSC patrons: Do you think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God?

That explains the adverse reaction I've had using Miracle Grow - doggonit - I demand truth in labeling!!!!! [said in a really high-pitched Mickey Mouse voice].

Isn't ordination done by the laying on of hands?

I beg to differ with you on the grounds of the following verses: John 20:31 ...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ...NASB Romans 1:20 ...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so they are without excuse...NASB Romans 10:17...so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. NASB [edited for Television]

Hey, I think I can do that too!!!!!! Galatians 1:8But even if we, or an angel from heaven [or New Knoxville], should preach to you a gospel contrary [such as PFAL] to what we preach to you he [such as VPW] is to be accursed. NASB T-Bone Amplified Version

Nice post, Doojable!...Haven't ever given it much thought - but I'm glad you brought it up...Once and awhile I do kneel when I pray. And I think it's usually when I'm under great stress about something or feeling really weak...Maybe it's a sub-conscious thing - like my body is telling my mind "humble yourself before GOD ALMIGHTY."

The cat is thinking: "I operate all nine [lives] all the time"

I was reading/posting last night on the Assume for a moment there is no God thread in Doctrine, kept thinking about stuff - went to bed - woke up and read Ecclesiastes. I was drawn back to this thread... Welcome to Grease Spot rvrdiver!!!!! After I left TWI two books I've read over and over are Job and Ecclesiastes. What I gather from these books can be a let down sometimes - maybe because a reality pill is hard to swallow - in other words real life as opposed to TWI's view: 1. There's a lot going on "behind the scenes" that we know nothing about - but has a big impact on our lives. 2. we are usually not given the reason for our suffering and woes. 3. apart from God life IS meaningless. 4. the Bible is more about what we should do NOW than why stuff is happening - see Eccl. 12:13 the conclusion of the whole matter - fear God and keep His commandments. ...I don't mean to sound so dismal - keep in mind another great and mystifying topic - prayer. I believe in the sovereignty of God and that there are things He "orchestrates" [whatever that means] to go His way. But He gave us freedom of will and the Bible speaks a bunch about the power of prayer and that prayer has value...So - who's to say that what can make a difference in our unique situations? Perhaps our Christian life is like a partnership with God. Maybe sometimes He purposes that what will change the tide in a circumstance IS our prayers! :)