T-Bone

Bolshevik, thanks for sharing this book…I finally got around to reading your post/hyperlink – and then immediately purchased the Kindle version. I am always fascinated with this kind of stuff as it relates to me getting a better understanding of harmful and controlling cult-leaders. A lot of this stuff strikes a huge nerve with my interactions and even general experiences with wierwille and LCM. Thanks again for mentioning this book…I’ve copied and pasted some excerpts from the hyperlink you provided… ...behold the great principle behind the great unprincipled cult-leader : question: Why does the narcissist conjure up another Self? Why not simply transform his True Self into a False one? Answer: We often marvel at the discrepancy between the private and public lives of our idols: celebrities, statesmen, stars, writers, and other accomplished figures. It is as though they have two personalities, two selves: the "true" one which they reserve for their nearest and dearest and the "fake" or "false" or "concocted" one which they flaunt in public. In contrast, the narcissist has no private life, no true self, no domain reserved exclusively for his nearest and dearest. His life is a spectacle, with free access to all, constantly on display, garnering narcissistic supply from his audience. In the theatre that is the narcissist's life, the actor is irrelevant. Only the show goes on. The False Self is everything the narcissist would like to be but, alas, cannot: omnipotent, omniscient, invulnerable, impregnable, brilliant, perfect, in short: godlike. Its most important role is to elicit narcissistic supply from others: admiration, adulation, awe, obedience, and, in general: unceasing attention. In Freud’s tripartite model, the False Self supplants the Ego and conforms to the narcissist’s unattainable, grandiose, and fantastic Ego Ideal. The narcissist constructs a narrative of his life that is partly confabulated and whose purpose is to buttress, demonstrate, and prove the veracity of the fantastically grandiose and often impossible claims made by the False Self. This narrative allocates roles to significant others in the narcissist’s personal history. Inevitably, such a narrative is hard to credibly sustain for long: reality intrudes and a yawning abyss opens between the narcissist’s self-imputed divinity and his drab, pedestrian existence and attributes. I call it the Grandiosity Gap. Additionally, meaningful figures around the narcissist often refuse to play the parts allotted to them, rebel, and abandon the narcissist… …Gradually, the disharmony between one’s perception of the universe and of oneself and reality becomes unbearable and engenders pathological, maladaptive, and dysfunctional attempts to either deny the hurtful discrepancy away (delusions and fantasies); grandiosely compensate for it by eliciting positive external voices to counter the negative, inner ones (narcissism via the False Self and its narcissistic supply); attack it (antisocial/psychopathy); withdraw from the world altogether (schizoid solution); or disappear by merging and fusing with another person (codependence.) Once formed and functioning, the False Self stifles the growth of the True Self and paralyses it. Henceforth, the ossified True Self is virtually non-existent and plays no role (active or passive) in the conscious life of the narcissist. It is difficult to "resuscitate" it, even with psychotherapy. The False Self sometimes parades the child-like, vulnerable, needy, and innocent True Self in order to capture, manipulate, and attract empathic sources of narcissistic supply. When supply is low, the False Self is emaciated and dilapidated. It is unable to contain and repress the True Self which then emerges as a petulant, self-destructive, spoiled, and codependent entity. But the True Self’s moments in the sun are very brief and, usually, inconsequential… …The False Self is a kind of positive projection: the narcissist’s attributes to it all the positive and desired aspects of himself, thereby endowing it with a quasi-separate existence. The False Self fulfils the role of a divinity in the narcissist’s obsessive-compulsive private religion: the narcissist worships it and adheres to ceremonies and rituals via which he interacts with it. The True Self, on the other hand, is ignored at best and usually denigrated. This process is akin to projective splitting: when parents project onto the golden child positive traits and talents even as they attribute to the scapegoat child negative, undesirable qualities. In this sense, the narcissist a parent with two offspring: his two selves. There is no conflict between the True Self and the False Self. First, the True Self is much too weak to do battle with the overbearing False. Second, the False Self is adaptive (though maladaptive). It helps the True Self to cope with the world. Without the False Self, the True Self would be subjected to so much hurt that it will disintegrate. This happens to narcissists who go through a life crisis: their False Ego becomes dysfunctional and they experience a harrowing feeling of annulment. The False Self has many functions. The two most important are: 1. It serves as a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation – in short: to the abuse – inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, protecting him, rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time. 2. The False Self is misrepresented by the narcissist as his True Self. The narcissist is saying, in effect: "I am not who you think I am. I am someone else. I am this (False) Self. Therefore, I deserve a better, painless, more considerate treatment." The False Self, thus, is a contraption intended to alter other people's behaviour and attitude towards the narcissist… …Why are narcissists not prone to suicide? The simple answer is that they died a long time ago. Narcissists are the true zombies of the world. Many scholars and therapists tried to grapple with the void at the core of the narcissist. The common view is that the remnants of the True Self are so ossified, shredded, cowed into submission and repressed – that, for all practical purposes, the True Self is dysfunctional and useless. In treating the narcissist, the therapist often tries to construct and nurture a completely new healthy self, rather than build upon the distorted wreckage strewn across the narcissist's psyche. But what of the rare glimpses of True Self oft reported by those who interact with the narcissist? Pathological narcissism is frequently comorbid with other disorders. The narcissistic spectrum is made up of gradations and shades of narcissism. Narcissistic traits or style or even personality (overlay) often attach to other disorders (co-morbidity). A person may well appear to be a full-fledged narcissist – may well appear to be suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - but is not, in the strict, psychiatric, sense of the word. In such people, the True Self is still there and is sometimes observable… From: The Dual Role of the Narcissist's False Self (tripod.com) End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~

Or Some special coins I learned about on the NT canon thread…a$$ pennies

I’ve got an idea for the postcard…kinda reminds me of the Indiana campus A hell of a place to hale from

Hi Extremist, welcome to Grease Spot Café! From what I’ve observed coming to Grease Spot Café for 17 years is that TWI ‘escapees’ often go through a type of grief-period…that is a part of life anyway… dealing with grief and loss… the challenges we all face when going through the sorrow, pain and distress of losing someone, or losing a relationship, losing a job, losing our faith, losing social connections, etc... I don’t know why you left. A lot of folks – after they’ve settled in with life outside TWI’s fantasy world – are surprised about the freedom they have to think and choose on their own. The longer you stay involved in TWI, the more your cognitive skills suffer. Most folks have a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of TWI to fulfill its declared goals and usually right up there with that is the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent. There’s no one proven method for leaving TWI and unpacking the mental and emotional baggage. Most of my therapy has been self-directed. All our stories here are not meant to be a guide – but to provide hope – that one can successfully leave The Way International, unpack the mental and emotional baggage…that one can survive and hopefully thrive. All our stories here are proof that it can be done, and it won’t ruin your life. Feel free to private message me if there are any concerns you don’t want to discuss in an open forum. Just remember I’m not a psychiatrist, therapist, clergy. My Dad was a medic in WWII – I sort of do something similar – I’m a Christian in service to Jesus Christ and I like to help those wounded by a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult – and I don’t care what religion they are or if they have no religion… and please respect my privacy – I will respect yours - and in general for safety and security reasons we don’t give out names, personal info, and such…this is cyberspace… …Grease Spot Café is legit and a good place to find out about the dark underbelly of TWI, share your story, get inspired from the stories of others and inspire others with your story. Well, on to phase 2 – your journey of self-determination. Rocky gave you a very helpful reading list. I’ll add a few more books, articles, Grease Spot Café threads, and self-help strategies that have helped me: On cults Spiritual Abuse Resources - Dysfunctional Churches Cult Recruitment | HowStuffWorks 7 Sure-Fire Ways to Recognize False Teachers - Trending Christian Blog (crosswalk.com) How can I recognize a false teacher / false prophet? | GotQuestions.org “Don’t Drink the Kool-Aid!”: Unpacking The Dangerous Dreamland of Cults — Mars' Hill Newspaper (marshillnewspaper.com) Six Sociological Characteristics of Cults (andynaselli.com) Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today 12 Critical Thinking Errors That Crush Your Mental Strength – Awareness Act Drinking the Kool-Aid - Wikipedia ~ ~ ~ ~ Some Bible stuff if you’re still into the Bible: Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity: Hunt, Dave: 9780890815588: Amazon.com: Books Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible: Sire, James W.: 9780877846116: Amazon.com: Books Understanding Doctrine: McGrath, Alister E.: 9780274839032: Amazon.com: Books Making Sense of the Bible: Rediscovering the Power of Scripture Today: Hamilton, Adam: 9780062234988: Amazon.com: Books Understanding the Bible: An Introduction for Skeptics, Seekers, and Religious Liberals: Buehrens, John A.: 9780807010532: Amazon.com: Books The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It: Enns, Peter: 9780062272034: Amazon.com: Books NIV, Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Bonded Leather, Black, Red Letter: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture: Zondervan, Keener, Craig S., Walton, John H.: 9780310431596: Amazon.com: Books Textual criticism - what is it? | GotQuestions.org ~ ~ ~ ~ From Grease Spot Café threads about TWI Jim Doop, The Way West and VPW - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe PFAL Perception was EVERYTHING - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI? - Page 3 - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe Why I loved the Way years ago? - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe Why PFAL sucks - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe PFAL-Colored Glasses - Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible - GreaseSpot Cafe ~ ~ ~ ~ Some self-help and mental health stuff 12 Critical Thinking Errors That Crush Your Mental Strength – Awareness Act Emotional and Psychological Trauma - HelpGuide.org Spiritual Abuse Resources - Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's Perspective Spiritual Abuse Resources - Guidelines for Spiritually Abused Persons Inside Out - Kindle edition by Crabb, Larry. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. Grief - Wikipedia George Bonanno - Wikipedia Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy: David D. Burns: 8580001040905: Amazon.com: Books Best wishes on your journey, Love and peace, T-Bone

I can't speak to your questions about what he plagiarized from Stiles' book - I haven't read anything by Stiles - or for that matter what he "borrowed" from BG Leonard's class - since I never took Leonard's class...I'm most familiar with Bullinger's stuff he plagiarized, since I have a some of Bullinger's stuff, How to Enjoy the Bible, The Companion Bible, Figures of Speech, Number in Scripture and his commentary on the book of Revelation...I liked Bullinger's work on literary structure and a few of the appendices but that's about it. For some things Bullinger was at least disciplined enough to make sense and be consistent - but other stuff he got wacky like 4 crucified and dispensationalism, and his view that the Bible is inerrant / scientifically accurate - funny thing Bullinger was involved in a flat earth society too when it comes right down to it - the Bible is malleable - one can twist it into any belief system. As far as him pressuring or persuading the research department of TWI - that's a non-issue since wierwille ruled everything with an iron hand. If you haven't read Penworks' book Undertow you should - she gets into the pressure wierwille exerted on research staff I remember one corps night rev. walter c. was teaching us from the book of Timothy and he mentioned wierwille instructing him before he went to the Institute for New Testament Textual Research ( I think that's the name of it ) in Germany, to look for a manuscript of Timothy that would prove wierwille's speculation ( more like wishful thinking ) was right about some version of a passage that he was confident existed which would support his anti-Trinitarian rants...well, in my opinion that's sneaky tactics to support confirmation bias...that's NOT true research

Your catch is still good - that verse came up in several lexicons and on the website Got Questions org - and how most explain it is Jesus gave them measured authority as a divine authentication that the apostles were certified to continue Jesus’ mission.

good catch, Charity! I believe the reason TWI doesn’t quote a verse to support the following statements of theirs is because there is no scriptural justification: “…Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis. It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car. As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift. We have the potential power and the authority, but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power…” NO verse supports wierwille’s egocentric idea! Chalk it up to wierwille’s signature intuition – how the cult-leader feels it should be interpreted…outside of TWI-cult-followers wierwille’s signature intuition has NO AUTHORITY. From the few references* I checked (see below) the Greek word “exousia” covers a lot of ground – to cite just a few usages – it’s used of the absolute authority and supremacy of Christ, the limited and specified authority Jesus gave to His disciples over unclean spirits, the organization of Satan and the rulers of darkness, government authority, and in the book of Revelation believers will be given the right to eat of the tree of life. But I have NOT found a verse that supports the idea that: “ exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis” NOPE – wish I had the God-given right and privilege to exorcise the dumb-a$$ spirit that is so influential in the TWI-mindset. “It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car” – NOPE! There is no Divine Department of Motor Vehicles nor is there a Divine Car Dealership…after taking PFAL or PFAL Today it’s like you’re given a student-driver-permit to run over Scripture…I still have mine from 1974 - - > Double O 6 (that’s nada, nada, the number for man ) license to regurgitate what the cult-leader taught me. “As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift” – not exactly, Scripture says to use whatever gifts you have to serve others. “We have the potential power and the authority” – get it straight – give credit where credit is due – to God be the glory! remember the flowchart: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > The Holy Spirit - - > you. “but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power” – that’s a whole lotta talk and nothing to show for it…oh yeah, some relevant thoughts: The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts – the unity and diversity indicated in I Corinthians 12 means every believer does NOT get all nine. And those aren't the only gifts - there's more - but that's another post . So why is it at the end of a PFAL class all students are expected to speak in tongues? What are the chances that every student receives the gift of tongues? Why don’t the class coordinators go around the room and ask the Holy Spirit to indicate what student got what? One student over here is getting word of knowledge that wierwille plagiarized all the material in the class. Another student over there is discerning spirits that wierwille is lying through his teeth. The door to the classroom blows open and a $100 bill miraculously falls into the hands of another student - divine reimbursement for money poorly spent on the PFAL class . And one student is tearing up her syllabus – laughing with tears of joy as she shouts, “Thank you Jesus, my cognitive skills have been healed...what a bunch of bull$hit !!!!” I think the analysis of wierwille’s great principle on this thread has brought to light several dubious ideas, Scripture twisting and logical fallacies – there’s probably more! ~ ~ ~ ~ references* Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume: Edited By: Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, Geoffrey W. Bromiley: 9780802824042 - Christianbook.com Exousia - Wikipedia What is the meaning of exousia in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org Expository Dictionary of Bible Words: Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts: Renn, Stephen D.: 9781598565744: Amazon.com: Books Authority - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info) Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: Mounce, William D.: 9780310248781: Amazon.com: Books The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised: 1978 Edition: Moulton, Harold K.: 9780310202806: Amazon.com: Books

This has got to be one of the most glaringly obvious interpolations* made by wierwille in his egocentric* theology - it all revolves around him – he’s got holy spirit…he operates it…below I’m quoting from TWI’s website, and I rendered in red font the smoking gun: I Corinthians 12:11: But all these [nine manifestations of holy spirit] worketh [energeō, are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit [God], dividing to every man severally [distributing to every man his own] as he [the man] will. Energeō is the verb form of energēma, the kinetic, energized power of God. It is dunamis in operation. The manifestations of holy spirit are energized by God as each believer wills, or maturely deliberates. We can see the nine manifestations of holy spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. These manifestations can be operated by every believer, and every manifestation of the gift of holy spirit is profitable. Each believer operates God’s power when they decide and believe to do so. From: The Way International - Operating the Gift of Holy Spirit End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Below I’ve copied and pasted I Corinthians 12:11 from other versions – these are from Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages – are very useful resource for parallel passages, lexicons, interlinear, commentaries - - and navigating the website is super easy! …anyway - note the same verse in other versions - and see that the translators correctly observe the context of the verse and entire chapter to indicate that it is the Holy Spirit who does the distributing: New International Version All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. New Living Translation It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. New King James Version But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. New American Standard Bible But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. Amplified Bible All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses. NET Bible It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things. Weymouth New Testament But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will. Contemporary English Version But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us. ~ ~ ~ ~ The above translations challenge the egocentric* interpolations* of wierwille and The Way International; or rather wierwille and The Way International contradict the natural sense and context of I Corinthians 12:11 – because the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and decides who gets what… read the context - you’ll notice it even shoots holes in wierwille’s attempt to produce a one-man-show promoting ‘each believer can operate all nine manifestations’ - observe verse 11 is nestled in the ideas of unity and diversity: 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. I Corinthians 12 ~ ~ ~ ~ interpolation* = the insertion of something of a different nature into something else; a remark interjected in a conversation; in math, interpolation is at the root a simple mathematical concept. In short, interpolation is a process of determining the unknown values that lie in between the known data points. It is mostly used to predict the unknown values for any geographical related data points such as noise level, rainfall, elevation, and so on. egocentric* = thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered; egocentrism refers to someone's inability to understand that another person's view or opinion may be different than their own; It refers to a limited worldview, with a person focusing only on his needs. An egocentric person may become obsessed with them. Egocentric people often show a lack of empathy for others. They cannot see things from a different point of view than their own. Another feature of this behavior is the ‘imaginary audience’.

welcome to Grease Spot, Anonymouse ! Yes - you have to be strong to leave a harmful and controlling cult! Glad you didn't ditch non-TWI friends and family like I did - it makes the journey out lonely

My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From: The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia The film got me primed to reframe the problem of a pseudo-Christian cult. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with two incomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic event in Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy trauma some experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc.. I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Café is that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it. I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition: In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life. From: Self - IResearchNet For extra credit you can check out the following hyperlinks What Is the Self? | Psychology Today The Self | Psychology Today Self Concept - Simply Psychology Self - Wikipedia Self in Jungian psychology - Wikipedia What Is a 'Self'? Here Are All the Possibilities | Live Science ~ ~ ~ ~ One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion. Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-self versus the revitalized-self - - the old man versus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’ that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you. I believe wierwille / The Way International hijacked the abstract idea of the new man mentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitude as something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination – basically using the person for one's own purposes. So, let’s look at the old man and the new man in the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red font that are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too! ~ ~ ~ ~ What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6 ~ ~ ~ ~ 4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7 ~ ~ ~ ~ 8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Romans 8 ~ ~ ~ ~ 12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12 ~ ~ ~ ~ So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle – which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader. 1. the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us without any of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot 2. the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place. 3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3 Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand. you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body. Our old self, the body of sin (Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old self is ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 ) According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology. some ideas and notes are from: MacArthur Study Bibles - Christianbook.com , NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com NIV, Life Application Study Bible, Third Edition, Leathersoft, Brown, Red Letter: Zondervan: 9780310452829: Amazon.com: Books Inside Out: Crabb, Larry: 9781612913124: Amazon.com: Books The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business: Duhigg, Charles: 8601406381322: Amazon.com: Books 3. the adaptive self - the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread - here and here - so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil. ~ ~ ~ ~ …and now for the finale… The great unprincipled cult-leader: The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult. ...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note Well – that’s all for now, folks

Great posts WordWolf and Bolshevik ! Got me thinking…uh oh… hence The great unprincipled cult-leader My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From: The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia The film got me primed to read these posts this morning in a new light, and reframe the problem. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with two incomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic event in Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy trauma some experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc.. I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Café is that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it. I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition: In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life. From: Self - IResearchNet For extra credit you can check out the following hyperlinks What Is the Self? | Psychology Today The Self | Psychology Today Self Concept - Simply Psychology Self - Wikipedia Self in Jungian psychology - Wikipedia What Is a 'Self'? Here Are All the Possibilities | Live Science ~ ~ ~ ~ One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion. Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-self versus the revitalized-self - - the old man versus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’ that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you. I believe wierwille / The Way International hijacked the abstract idea of the new man mentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitude as something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination – basically using the person for one's own purposes. So, let’s look at the old man and the new man in the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red font that are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too! ~ ~ ~ ~ What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6 ~ ~ ~ ~ 4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7 ~ ~ ~ ~ 8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Romans 8 ~ ~ ~ ~ 12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12 ~ ~ ~ ~ So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle – which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader. 1. the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us without any of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot 2. the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place. 3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3 Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand. you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body. Our old self, the body of sin (Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old self is ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 ) According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology. some ideas and notes are from: MacArthur Study Bibles - Christianbook.com , NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com NIV, Life Application Study Bible, Third Edition, Leathersoft, Brown, Red Letter: Zondervan: 9780310452829: Amazon.com: Books Inside Out: Crabb, Larry: 9781612913124: Amazon.com: Books The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business: Duhigg, Charles: 8601406381322: Amazon.com: Books 3. the adaptive self - the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread - here and here - so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil. ~ ~ ~ ~ …and now for the finale… The great unprincipled cult-leader: The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult. ...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note Well – that’s all for now, folks

you mean like this ?

Just when you thought it was safe to read the Bible again …..mwaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Re-read those passages – and see below – I marked the sentences with red font to indicate in the context God, the Son and The Holy Spirit ARE mentioned in close proximity – indicating interagency: You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”… …13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit… …22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Galatians 3 ~ ~ ~ ~ What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir… …28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now… Galatians 4

Maybe there’s a PFAL parody in there somewhere…like the gameshow Jeopardy – contestants are given the answers and must provide a response in the form of a question... PFAL Jeopardy - if there’s a danger of loss, harm, or failure you must be playing PFAL Jeopardy…game is already in progress... Contestant # 1 Johnny Pump-u-up: Alex, I’ll take ‘law of believing’ for $400 PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: Needs and Wants are parallel. Contestant # 1 Johnny Pump-u-up: uhm…errr…what is collateral damage? Buzzer sounds PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: No, but you’re getting warmer. Toot toot sound - Contestant # 2 Maggie Mugs-a-lot just tooted in PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: Maggie, go ahead. Contestant # 2 Maggie Mugs-a-lot: What is the greatest sin a person can commit? Buzzer sounds PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: Sorry Maggie, that was already handled in the declining PFAL category. Toot toot sound - Contestant # 3 Snow-job Pete just tooted in PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: Go ahead, Snow-job. Contestant # 3 Snow-job Pete: Do you know what killed that little boy? Ding ding ding ding (4 ding-a-fied) PFAL Jeopardy coordinator Alex: Alright – we have a winner... Snow-job just won a $400 voucher which is good for up to four new students to take PFAL Today, today only. Class starts in 20 minutes and hold all your questions until the end of the class. I lost on PFAL Jeopardy

Hi Charity, I say stuff like that to alert readers I’m just thinking out loud – speculating – so take it with a grain of salt – I have no Scripture to back it up. There is no linear representation like the one I wrote - in the Bible. . A flowchart is a modern construct – but that’s how I understand what Jesus meant – the flowchart shows direction of movement – that it all proceeds from The Father. For this post I was thinking along the lines of that thread you started, How does God work in us ...I like the mind-expanding quality of that thread – my takeaway from everyone’s input is that we humans are unique – so there will be some overlap but also distinctive differences – it's all soooooo fascinating - we recount how an indescribable divine being communicates with each one of us: New Living Translation The high and lofty one who lives in eternity, the Holy One, says this: “I live in the high and holy place with those whose spirits are contrite and humble. I restore the crushed spirit of the humble and revive the courage of those with repentant hearts…Isaiah 57:15 wierwille’s ‘great principle’ puts God in a box - and even conceptually it is speculative and contradictory – if spirit is spirit and matter is matter and never the twain shall meet – then wierwille’s ‘great principle’ has conflicting theories! EXACTLY HOW God works in each one of us is a mystery to me…Best I know is just to say it all proceeds from the Father The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you . Circling back to speaking in tongues – I’m of the opinion if you got it use it to serve others – whatever gifts you have use them to serve others: 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. I Corinthians 12

Page 10 11 Corrections: Particle Excellorator Possibly Excellerater Past Participle Excellermundo Parcheesi Excellerama Particle Accelerator Dancing With the Stars Excellorant Exceller: The Basement Removal Company Fresca Ex-Seltzer the non-carbonated alternative USS Starship Excelsior

There’s nothing to correct – I agree with all you say. And just to be clear – I began the post by saying “Speaking for myself…” It’s just my viewpoint – sorry if I’ve caused any waves in anyone else’s belief system…I don’t think everyone faked speaking in tongues – and I especially believe what everyone has shared about SIT before being instructed in PFAL. That sounds like the real thing to me compared to running everyone through the PFAL mill. This right here is a great point you made, Charity – and bears repeating: “While in twi, we might have had some initial doubts about things we learned or did (like SIT at the end of the class), but because there was so much hype to believe "all things vp", the doubts were quickly buried or they just fell by the wayside. From that point on, we believed (or pretended to believe) what was happening was real.” Earlier Chockfull mentioned that there’s other things that matter more – or something like that. SIT is not that big a deal to me from what I gathered studying I Corinthians 12 & 14 – mainly because the Holy Spirit is the one who distributes the gifts…another thing I just asked me wife to confirm our differences and she said she didn’t mind if I shared the following. She still speaks in tongues on occasion in her private prayers – sometimes picturing someone she is concerned about. She reminded me of when she was a teenager her church split over speaking in tongues…on small differences or preferences my wife says “You do you”. We left TWI in ’86 and focused on our careers and family – and have no regrets about that. Since we don’t have to answer to any cult-leaders we do what works for our family. Most Sundays we’ll watch David Jeremiah as a family – we call it church TV. Once in a while we’ll pause the program and discuss something he brought up or even criticize a point we think he should have made clearer…we’re into live and let live…not going to waste any more time thinking we can change the world because we’ve got all the answers...God is going to have to put up with me being who I am - a cult-survivor - with a damaged faith and some battle scars to prove it...I feel I've got a full plate just looking after my family. That's what matters to me.

That’s a big deal, Chockfull! What matters more to me is getting down to the essential nuts and bolts of something. Everyone is entitled to their own takeaways. Open honest discussions like this are one of the great things I love about Grease Spot Cafe! There’s a lot to be said for the peaceful coexistence of diversity. Makes me think of a vacation experience. It’s always interesting when we talk to other vacationers. People go to the same place for similar reasons and different reasons. A metaphor rich adventure for life’s journey. Now tourist traps are something to be avoided. Cults and opportunistic types just want your money…good natured seasoned travelers alert others about that stuff too.

Look at this diagram of the functional areas of the brain…think of all the tasks involved when speaking. One of the most questionable things with wierwille’s instructions on how to speak in tongues is the doubletalk of him saying don’t think about the words you say – but do think about what body parts you have to control to produce - - - gibberish. His instructions are contradictory nonsense. And thousands of followers have bought into it. The utterance manifestations are the easiest thing to fake. Because of wierwille’s erroneous interpretations of I Corinthians 12 & 14, all TWI followers think they can ‘operate’ all nine manifestations of I Corinthians 12. I don’t doubt the Holy Spirit can distribute gifts as He sees fit – but I suspect a class or book that has a cookie cutter approach does not take the place of the absent Holy Spirit. There are some hyperlinks below the diagram on the mechanics of speech - check them out - maybe you'll see what I do - there's too much involved in speaking a real language that makes wierwille's directions absurd! There are also some interesting hyperlinks that offer other viewpoints on speaking in tongues… How we speak: the mechanics Language (Speech) Production What Part of the Brain Controls Speech: Several Parts of the Cerebrum (healthline.com) Brain Control of Speech: How It Works | Speech and Language | Live Science Neuroscientists Have Converted Brain Waves Into Verbal Speech | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine Tongues on the Mind | Science | AAAS Speaking in Tongues - The real story • Skeptical Science (skeptical-science.com) Brain imaging on speaking in tongues. (slate.com) What Is Speaking in Tongues, and Is It Relevant Today? - Topical Studies (biblestudytools.com) Speaking In Tongues - by John MacArthur John MacArthur explains why tongues is easy to falsify in an ignorant environment

Speaking for myself - I realized I had faked it after I left TWI…in high school I used to do impressions of other languages for the amusement of my friends…at session 12 of the class I followed the instructions- move my lips , tongue mouth but don’t think about what is said. It was just like my high school schtick- a mix of Russian and Asian sounding gibberish.

You know what drives me crazy Whenever I’m eating ice cream - those two always come by They act like they’re not interested – but I know they are

The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit. In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind. John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out. Excerpt from: The Way International: operating the gift of The Holy Spirit ~ ~ ~ ~ ”…it was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.” “So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.” “So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.” “But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.” Excerpt from The Way Living in Love, wierwille relates his experiences to Elena Whiteside ~ ~ ~ ~ In the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following: Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues… …The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue. End of excerpt from the green book, The New Dynamic Church ~ ~ ~ ~ Conclusion: wierwille taught followers how to fake speaking in tongues The Way International continues that mindless tradition

that reminds me - any time I smell vomit I usually have to hurl too true story - my older brother and I shared the same bedroom...he came home late one night after drinking...I wake up in the morning, and smell vomit - I'm starting to gag - choke back a hurl - swing my legs out of bed to run to the bathroom - plant both feet in a puddle of puke between our beds!

I think what would have made the Advanced Class a lot better would have been some on-the-job training Maybe standing next to “The Teacher” as he’s talking someone down from demonic possession