T-Bone

Yup ! I think I always wanted to go west - maybe something subliminally planted in my head growing up watching The Rifleman, Bat Masterson, Have Gun Will Travel, Bonanza, Gunsmoke, etc....I thought I would be sent westward when I went W.O.W.. ...Ha - I got sent to D.C. - but that's where I met the most gorgeous native Texan in all the world - Tonto !!!!!!!!!!!!! Her dad explained to me the difference between a Yankee and a damn Yankee [of which I fell into the latter category]. A Yankee is someone from up north that may come down to visit - a damn Yankee is one that stays down here.

Good one, Mark. I posted a picture I took of a restaurant named Phuket in Seattle on the happy birthday thread to GeorgeAar...Well - here it is again

Thanks, Mark - yeah I've got one. The newspaper article said any shipped between April 2004 and July 2006. I got mine January of 2004 - but I'm still going to check it out through Dell.

Thanks - that's me on my Grandpa's porch in Nova Scotia - I've got that "thinks he knows what he's talking about look" on - which works pretty well on this Guitar thread -

Dah feelin' is moochull :wub: Ex10 - we're planning on being there! [and Dooj - I hope there won't be a cover charge for Yankees].

Waysider, that's a great album - Cold Blood's Sisyphus. The singer Lydia Pense reminds me of another group Ten Wheel Drive with Genya Revan - 2 great tunes on their Best of - Tightrope and Eye of the Needle...And on the Jeff Beck front - after ordering Beckology from Amazon - and waiting about a month I finally get an email from them it's no longer available...I ain't giving up! It's out there somewhere - may hit the used CD shops next.

Ahoy, Sailor - glad you abandoned ship back in '87! That part about the Lunch Room Lady - Miss Dream Girl having to check with the next higher unit of the Borg collective is scary!!!! :blink: .....Anyway - welcome to Grease Spot !!!!!!!!!!!

That would be a riot if you came, DMiller ! Bring your guitar, mandolin, etc., and I'll bring my bass - of course you're gonna hafta teach me how to play it - I hadn't played it in over 20 years...Just kiddin' - about bringing my bass - but not kiddin' about wanting you to come to the party.

To all those wishing for a do-over in life, you can start pretending - - - - NOW !

Tom, you make a distinction when you say "I recognize about it in my spirit." That is a distinction I see in Romans 8:26. In my opinion if the verse was indicating something we did it would phrase it like "my spirit intercedes for me." Like in I Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." I see a distinction in Romans 8:26 - it is not me making the intercession. It says the Spirit [not "my spirit"] makes intercession for us. I don't see us given any credit for doing anything in that verse.

As I said a few pages back - I don't think Romans 8:26 is talking about speaking in tongues at all.

Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings." [The NET Bible] 1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"? From The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: Romans 1-8 by John MacArthur, page 466: "In the same way refers to the groans of the creation and of believers for redemption from the corruption and defilement of sin. Here Paul reveals the immeasurably comforting truth that the Holy Spirit comes alongside us and all creation in groaning for God's ultimate day of restoration and His eternal reign of righteousness. Because of our remaining humanness and susceptibility to sin and doubt, the Holy Spirit also helps us in our weakness. In this context, weakness doubtless refers to our human condition in general, not to specific weaknesses. The point is that, even after salvation, we are characterized by spiritual weakness. Acting morally, speaking the truth, witnessing for the Lord, or doing any other good thing happens only by the power of the Spirit working in and through us despite our human limitations…'for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure' [Phil. 2:13]. The Spirit of God works unrelentingly in us to do what we could never do alone – bring about the perfect will of God." 2. What or who is "the Spirit"? I find it interesting that in the previous chapter 7 when Paul talks of the struggle with sin I counted approximately 48 personal references to himself [i, me, my, myself]. In Romans 8, when he speaks of life through the Spirit, I counted approximately 20 references to the Spirit. I think it's quite a contrast presented here. Chapter 7 reveals the overwhelming frustration of handling life through the impoverished power of our own sinful nature, our efforts always failing because we focus on ourselves [as Paul shows in the usage of "I, me, my, myself"]. Chapter 8 is a change of focus – instead of being self-centered; we're to be Spirit-centered – our focus being on God. From The Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener, page 431, Romans 8:26: "Judaism usually viewed the Spirit as an expression of God's power rather than as a personal being; like John [chaps. 14-16], Paul views the Spirit as a personal being [cf. 2 Cor.13:14]. Jewish teachers portrayed God's personified mercy or angels like Michael as intercessors for God's people before his throne; Paul assigns this role to Christ in heaven [Romans 8:34] and to his Spirit in his people [Romans 8:26]. The Spirit joins here in the birth pangs, as eager for the new creation as God's children are…" 3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"? Again from MacArthur's same commentary, pages 466, 467: "…Because of our imperfect perspectives, finite minds, human frailities, and spiritual limitations, we are not able to pray in absolute consistency with God's will. Many times we are not even aware that spiritual needs exist, much less know best they should be met. Even the Christian who prays sincerely, faithfully, and regularly cannot possibly know God's purposes concerning all of his own needs or the needs of others for whom he prays. Jesus told Peter, "Behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" [Luke 22:31,32]. Fortunately for Peter, Jesus kept His word despite the apostle's foolish bravado…How glorious that our spiritual security rests in the Lord's faithfulness rather than in our vacillating commitment." From When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, page 443: "Romans 8:26 – Is the Holy Spirit our mediator or is Christ? Problem: First Timothy 2:5 asserts that "there is one…Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." But Romans 8:26 informs us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us to God "with groanings which cannot be uttered." How can Christ be the only mediator when the Holy Spirit also mediates? Solution: Christ is the only mediator; the Holy Spirit is only an intercessor. Christ alone died for our sins [Heb. 1:1, 2], making reconciliation with God possible [2 Cor. 5:19]. The Holy Spirit did not die for our sins; He prays to the Father on our behalf, based on the redeeming work of Christ. Further, the intercession of the Holy Spirit is not in heaven, as Christ's work is . Rather, it is in us. The indwelling Spirit pleads in us to the Father on the grounds of the mediating work of the Son." From The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament by John Walvoord and Roy Zuck, page 473: "In their weakness both the content and the manner of proper prayer eludes them, but the Spirit Himself comes to their rescue and intercedes [pres. tense, "keeps on interceding"] for us with groans that words cannot express." 4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"? Again from The Bible Knowledge Commentary, page 473: "Natural Creation groans [Rom. 8:22] and believers groan [v. 23], and so does the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with praying in tongues, as some suggest. The groaning is done by the Holy Spirit, not believers, and is not stated in words…Even though the Spirit's words are not expressed, the Father knows what the Spirit is thinking." Concerning the word "inexpressible" – it is the Greek word alaleetos. The New Testament Transline by Michael Magill notes on this word alaleetos in Romans 8:26 can mean "unspoken, wordless," or, "unspeakable, inexpressible, too deep for words," and is related to the word "dumb, mute" used in Mark 7:37 "…the deaf to hear, and the dumb [alalos] to speak." Mark 9:17 "my son, which hath a dumb [alalos] spirit" and Mark 9:25 "[Thou] dumb [alalos] and deaf spirit, I charge thee…"

I remember the good old TWI days of getting teachings together – with my surgically attached Way-colored glasses – I was like the Borg – "resistance to our doctrine is futile." The process for doing research while I was in TWI was as follows: Find verses in the Bible and TWI material that proves TWI doctrine is correct. That is TWI's idea of research [more like regurgitate]. I know we got into this verse a few pages back – but honestly I don't think the posters who claimed it refers to speaking in tongues gave any Scriptural support for their claim. It has thereafter lapsed into anecdotal support for speaking in tongues followed by a confusing musing of tongues and understanding…I still think it is an unsettled issue on this thread – so once again here is the verse with some questions to discuss. I don't mean to limit the discussion as only to that one verse – we should follow the context of the whole section – and that is my point – to stay focused on what the passage is about: This is from The NET Bible [but it's open to submit other versions, of course] Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings." 1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"? 2. What or who is "the Spirit"? 3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"? 4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"? I think what would be acceptable in a doctrinal forum on discussing if Romans 8:26 does refer to speaking in tongues would be arguments from logic, appealing to specific parts of the context, defining words from the original languages, references to points that are of grammatical and cultural significance to the verse in question, and books, magazines, websites that offer pertinent information about this verse.

One of the first Greek words I did some further study on after leaving TWI is pros. VPW in his teaching on John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [pros] God…" defined pros as "together with yet distinctly independent of." VPW argued that the verse did NOT imply Jesus Christ was there with God in the beginning because of the word pros. He said the only way that Jesus could have been there in the beginning is in God's foreknowledge, or as he also put it – in the mind of God. What bugged me about VPW's definition and argument was that they didn't agree. If Christ existed in God's foreknowledge only – in the mind of God – then how could that be together with yet distinctly INDEPENDENT of God? If Christ was just a thought of God – how could that be SEPERATE from God? When a man or woman thinks about and plans to have children – do those thoughts exist apart from the mind that thought them? This hit me as somewhat puzzling and so I delved into finding out more about pros. I think VPW got his pros definition from A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament by E.W. Bullinger. On page 888 [i've put the part VPW used in bold red], "With, usage 5.c., pros: with Accusative, towards, implying an object, up to, with a view to, as an object attained; then, with, but as distinct from, over against, in direction towards; not like para [along with] but directed towards, implying intimate and closest inter-communion, together with distinct independence." It appears that VPW decided to only use one portion of the definition – why that one phrase I don't know – maybe he thought it was the only part that would lend itself to his special tweaking. I think he had a real knack for Scriptural and linguistic origami – twisting and folding verses and words to form his own unique brand of theology, something to suit his viewpoint. Considering the FULL definition of pros in Bullinger's it appears to me that John 1:1 implies Christ was literally WITH God in the beginning. One of the first commentary sets I bought after leaving TWI was The Expositor's Greek Testament edited by W. Robertson Nicholl. From Volume One, page 684, discussing this same verse and Greek word [John 1:1 pros] comes the following: "…pros implies not merely existence alongside of but personal intercourse. It means more than meta or para, and is regularly employed in expressing the presence of one person with another…This preposition implies intercourse and therefore separate personality…" A few other places where pros is used: Mark 6:3 "…are not his sisters here with [pros] us?" Mark 9:19 "…how long shall I be with [pros] you?" Galatians 1:18 "…and abode with [pros] him fifteen days." Maybe VPW's research was put together with assumptions yet distinctly independent of support.

I feel the same way - Abigail has turned me on to some neat stuff...The value of other viewpoints is priceless!!!!!! Because we are finite beings - no one individual has all the answers!!!!!!!! I have quite a few different versions of the Bible, commentaries and really enjoy coming to Grease Spot! I've got a different way of processing stuff now. Used to be in TWI - I would amass Scripture and TWI material to prove a TWI doctrine. Not exactly a researcher's attitude. Now I look at a lot of different things and try to keep a more open mind....Funny - I seem to be experiencing something I never did with TWI - I'm learning and growing!

Yup !!!!!! A great idea for a thread, Belle. As I mentioned on another thread - emotions can motivate people to action. Thus, emotions represent a potential threat to any party trying to maintain control over another. Because the action the "emotional person" might take doesn't fit in with the control-freaks' agenda.

Love it - Tom - love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The following excerpts about The Family/The Children of God is from AMG's Encyclopedia of World Religions, Cults & the Occult compiled by Mark Water, 2006, AMG Publishers, pages 628, 631: "…David Brandt Berg was affectionately known as "Moses David," "Mo," [being short for "Moses"], "Father David," and "Dad" to Family members…The Family traces its origins to 1968 and Huntington beach, California. There David Berg, also known as Father David or Moses David, together with his wife and teenage children, began a ministry to the counterculture youth of that seaside town…At the end of 1969, when the group had grown to about 100 members, it was dubbed "The Children of God" by the news media. By 1972, there were 130 Children of God communities scattered throughout the world…In early 1978, The Children of God was formally dissolved and a new group, The Family of Love, with a new organizational structure was formed. In recent years, they have become known simply as The Family… …There are approximately 12,000 full-time and associate adult volunteer members in The Family working out of over 1,400 centers, or communities, situated in over 100 countries… …Official Publications Mo Letters: Berg wrote more than 2,500 letters which became known as "Mo Letters." Mama Letters from Berg's common-law wife [mistress], Karen Zerby [Maria], are also considered authoritative. "What better way to show them the love of God than to do your best to supply their desperately hungry needs for love, fellowship, companionship, mental and spiritual communication, and physical needs such as food, clothing, shelter, warmth, affection, a tender kiss, a soft warm embrace, the healing touch of your loving hands, the comforting feeling of your body next to theirs – and yes, even sex if need be!" David Berg's Letters, no 79 "There's no amount of love that could possibly be illegitimate to try to win a soul! There's no sin in love to begin with, and there's no "sin" so great that God would condemn you for it when it's done in love…because when it's love it can't be sin." David Berg's Letters, no 81 End of Excerpts… If you ask me, VPW hijacked the wrong movement. I think this group would have been more up his alley.

Congrats Oakspear !!!!! Your posts always get me to thinking - I'm glad you're a regular at Grease Spot!

Great synopsis, Sunesis! Thanks for the info on the Jesus Movement, Skyrider. Tom, I liked the stuff you shared about not putting new wine in old wine skins and on the joints and bands. Thinking about all this stuff I see that sometimes God works through people and situations - and sometimes in spite of people and situations.

Bagpipes, I like your Righteous Anger thread! [Oh and I apologize to everyone – it feels like I'm commandeering my own thread – but everyone's posts have really got my old processor going! – now back to my preemptive rant… no wait …one more Station Identification…] I thought maybe I should post this on your Righteous Anger thread but I already posted something there – alright so I'm not good at staying on task – guess I'll have to pull out my "rambler's license" [got it myself at Bagpipes' Post-thru Service Desk - :) ] – and so throwing fear of derailment out the Windows XP I resume rambling about conscience and righteous anger. One of the threads that has gotten me fired-up angry [and I mean the gosh-awful-I-hope-yah-don't-mind-Lord-if-I-overturn-a-few-tables-in-yah-temple-righteous-angry] is the Foolhardy Behavior thread, especially when dialogue got into the L.E.A.D. program, specifically hitching, and TWI's cavalier attitude [no wait – that's too soft] – flagrant disregard for the safety and security of people – and not just any old group of people – their most dedicated followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've fantasized about time travel – or maybe it's more like a Quantum Leap episode – where I'm actually back in one of my TWI experiences – but I know then what I know now – and also have the nerve to stand up for my convictions – sort of a new and improved me displacing the wimpified spineless dullardesque core of my being…I can just imagine the re-make of the pajama party incident in my first post: We've just finished watching that sick doggie/women porn video, old Pervertwille is now showing that porn pen to the 16 year old girl. Suddenly I jump up while at the same time bellowing out some primordial roar that has amassed such force that I can no longer contain it. Of course all eyes are now upon me – but my eyes are locked in with his – I can hear Maverick's voice in my head "I've got tone, I've got tone!!!!!!!!!!" And then I slowly…deliberately…with all the emotion and drama of a thespian on steroids I say, "It is a disgrace for me to be here today. Why don't you just pack up all your perverted paraphernalia, Spanish Flies, Jedi mind-tricks – along with your lecherous weird-willie, get on your mobile-sacrificial-altar-for-sex-slaves [a.k.a. the Motor Coach] and get the heck out of Rome City." I know that's kind of weird and strange thinking – but I actually do that sometimes – not to re-write any personal history, or re-interpret an experience to absolve myself of shame or guilt – but use it more as a self-corrective tool. My mom used to say "two wrongs don't make a right", [praise to mothers for passing on such great proverbs]. It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass? Anyway – I'm not one to blame something like this on someone else. I turn that righteous anger on myself sometimes – as I realize how I was not vigilant in the care of my soul – and I let a thief inside…That anger hurts – yes a stinging motivation to change – but as you mentioned from that book on your Righteous Anger thread – in that righteous anger I also begin to see things from God's viewpoint – His creation at war with itself….I see it as a part of the healing process of my conscience.

I know exactly what you mean, Rhino. Sometimes old mental habits become invisible - we don't realize they're there... I'm aware of something I do quite a bit now [years after being out of TWI] - I reflect on my day - usually at the end of the night before going to bed. It may just be for a minute or two. And it's not just reviewing some high point of the day - like some achievement at work. I also round up any "suspect thoughts" - or maybe it's not even something I would call an articulated thought...maybe a wrestling with something, some incident after the fact, maybe wondering if I was being upfront with someone at work, or maybe I didn't stand up for what I knew was the right thing in a situation....Anyway - I don't mean for it to sound like some big heavy or even unpleasant introspective session - it just me - I've gotten more into the PROCESS of thinking over the years....Which is a whole lot different than the way I used to operate while in TWI - I used to be real busy - always doing something, planning something, busy, busy, busy. Busy doing and not busy thinking...

Bagpipes, this is a very timely thread - in regards to other threads lately...I like this stuff you mentioned from "Cry of the Soul." ...This topic reminds me of some other dialogs we've had over getting back in touch with our emotions. Not only was there a sedating of the conscience but also of the emotions. Emotions represent a threat to anybody intent on controlling another. Because emotions can move people to action - an action that might not fit into the control-freak's agenda!.......I also like the linkage to God's viewpoint - God seeing His creation at war with itself.

Military field-tests Bullet Proof Underwear Soldiers no longer afraid to turn the other cheek

Thank you for all your input. Bliss: “So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.”… I’m glad you pointed that out. In thinking along the lines of MacArthur’s analogy of the plane’s automatic warning system I thought of a weird TWI perversion of it. We shut our eyes to what is really happening around us [ignore what our logic, sense of decency, conscience, etc. tell us] and go by the guidance from the Control Tower [TWI leadership interpreting the situation for us]. CatCup: "You can't fix a problem with the same level of thinking that created it…They will simply use the same old excuses to desensitize and anesthetize the consciences of the next one, and history will repeat itself.” …That is TRUE. Teaching by example is a powerful tool. In the Way Corps you have aspiring leaders absorbing not only teachings from the podium but how leadership handles situations. Instead of being taught what’s right and wrong [moral standards] they get the idea that anything done in the renewed mind, with the love of God, energized by the power of the Force from Star Wars will only bless people. Doojable: “So how much did TWI teach us the wrong language for our conscience? I see many things now. So many walls for the Spirit of Truth to fight through. So many cobwebs of destruction. Too many dang word studies.... Think of it - we took the Advanced class and some of us went into the Corps to hear that still small voice better - but what we got was a translation mix-up instead.”… You’ve got that right!!!!!!!! We’re in the Disinformation Age courtesy of TWI! Qtana: Welcome to Grease Spot, Qtana. “That still small voice shouldn't have to fight for its way out, should it?” That is a very powerful question! Pond: You mentioned the numbness – I think that is a great description of how I “felt” in many situations [like the ones I mentioned in my first post] – and become doubters – as you put it. We experience something that is wrong, inappropriate, etc. but this “numbness” neutralizes our perception of it. SafariVista: “To the normal person, had his behavior been made public, it would have been clear that this Wierwille guy was a sex maniac, perverted, nasty, and freely stalking his young prey...” …Wow – that’s a big point right there – and as you say – the conditioning process just blinded us…I would like to say – after coming to Grease Spot for a short while – reading about the sex scandals, rapes, molestations, etc. – did not sway my thinking – it validated my thinking! As I reminisce over my TWI experiences with an awakened mind and conscience I think how can any sane, decent person not see how devilishly evil this is? When I left TWI it was over intellectual reasons [seeing errors in their doctrines, practices, method of Bible interpretation, etc.] but since I’ve been coming to Grease Spot the moral issues by far outweigh all those. Excathedra: “I had already made anesthetizing my mind an artform.”… but TWI has made it an Industry Standard!