T-Bone

Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW. It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl." Or what other demented reasoning would you like to use for justifying this incident? "I'm showing you this doggie/women porn video because it may help you in counseling someday." Oh yeah – good point - I forgot about all the thousands of people in the pornography industry I could help if I knew all the sordid details of their typical workday. And I think it would be a great challenge counseling a former porn-star canine. From my Christian perspective, I like some of the points in The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur: Mental health is contingent, if not synonymous with, moral health. The conscience functions more like a skylight, not a light bulb. It lets light into the soul; it does not produce its own light. Its effectiveness is determined by the amount of light we expose to it, and how clean we keep it. Cover it or put it in darkness and it ceases to function. That is why the apostle Paul spoke of the importance of a clear conscience [I Timothy 3:9], and warned against anything that would defile or muddy the conscience [I Corinthians 8:12; Titus 1:15]. He warned of the dangers of a calloused conscience [I Corinthians 8:10], a wounded conscience [I Corinthians 8:12], and a seared conscience [I Timothy 4:2]. Some excerpts on "conscience" from The Tyndale Bible Dictionary by Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort: "Although one's conscience is an inner witness to spiritual and moral truth, it cannot be regarded as the voice of God…No one has such a grasp on moral truth that his or her sinful nature may not overwhelm the conscience and render it unreliable…Both the English word "conscience" and the Greek word translated as "conscience" in the New Testament mean "to be with knowledge." In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God in shame because their consciences passed moral judgment on their disobedience [Genesis 3:8-10]. All human beings normally have the power of moral judgment: "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts" [Proverbs 20:27]. Conscience, then is a gift of God to provide light in matters of good and evil." I went through the Way Corps program during the latter part of my TWI years. Yes, this sedative to the conscience was already coursing through my decision-making process but had not met any real catalyst of opportunity – for my wife and I left TWI during our practicum year – after Geer's power-play Patriarch fiasco. What if we had stayed in? Considering my upbringing – a good Roman Catholic boy that feels guilty about everything – I don't think I would have become a major womanizer, thinking I was god on a stick – but I could have walked right into a temptation to be unfaithful. Maybe one day I'm counseling a woman – she's telling me she wishes her husband would be sweet to her like the way she's seen me at twig with my wife. She says she hasn't been intimate with her husband in years. She says she just needs God's love, a healing touch, to be loved by a spiritual man. She says she needs a hug – just a hug….I can easily see myself – running all these things through my mind of what to do to help – wanting to help – and then the seductive subliminal VPW training would activate – thoughts like: "Anything done out of love is okay. I think I'm spiritual enough I can handle anything – no fear – and I care about this believer enough – to meet her needs – whatever it takes." This is an amazing thing to me. For something that can have such a powerful influence in dealing with memories, how we act at the moment or plan to act in the future – this inner voice can be "silenced" if we ignore it long enough. As I Timothy 4:2 points out – our conscience can become seared – cauterized – rendered insensitive by persisting in evil. This thread has been mostly a self-help therapy for me. As I continue in this Christian life I become more concerned about the moral status of my heart. Dealing with the mental baggage of my TWI years is like trying to re-calibrate my moral guidance system – or maybe installing an anti-virus program in my heart... Why did I start this thread? A few reasons…I don't have some secret sin to confess – but I have such a healthy respect for the devastating power of sin and think I may have dodged a deadly bullet by abandoning TWI's leadership training program. What kind of person would I have become continuing in that frame of mind? Another reason is there are some who have left TWI and maybe still are not aware of the dark side of VPW. Perhaps there are Corps – still in TWI – who have never thought seriously about the subtle influence of leadership modeling such a morally corrupt version of Christianity. Consider I Thessalonians 1: 6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord…" I think people have a natural tendency to imitate others. That's how we learn – until we make something our own. The Old Testament reference to the "heart" included the idea of our conscience. Proverbs 4:23 "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."

Dah feeling iz moochul – thank you Tom! This discussion has been a lot of fun! Warning – off-topic condition just ahead – but also a plug for Grease Spot! It's also a set up for what I've gotten out of your posts, Tom. In my TWI days I used to see other viewpoints [outside of TWI-think] as threatening. It's a lot different now. I picture a discussion on any given topic like a survey crew checking out a mountain. It helps to have different viewpoints. There may be one person who wants to tunnel through it, another who explores a cave, one who flies over it, one who takes rock samples, etc. Now I know doctrinal discussions can get heady and subjective – reasoning, perceptions and arguments usually flow from one's personal belief system. And that's where the fun begins. It's not like I'm going to accidentally catch your belief system. I'm not interested in your belief system. I'm interested in hearing about you tunneling through the mountain – I've never done that. Or maybe you've been on the mountain during a big storm – I haven't. Maybe you say, "you call that a mountain – where I come from we call that a hill." I'm interested in where you came from – tell me about your mountains. Tom, I think it's interesting you get into Romans. I have to admit the book of Romans is one of the top seven of my favorite books [my top 7 are: Genesis, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, John, Acts, Romans, Revelation – just in case you're wondering what to get me for Christmas – a good commentary on one of those will do – oh…uh…you'll have to sneak it in the back door – Tonto says If I get anymore books I'll have to build an addition on to the house]. What I find interesting in your study of Romans is that your approach is a little different from mine. I venture to say each of us has looked at Romans the way we always have – according to our own personal interests. Now – I'm not referring to how we all used to have PFAL-colored glasses on [referencing another of Oakspear's threads] when reading the Bible. I'm talking about whenever we each read the Bible – we each were drawn to certain things. I've always been intrigued by the "technical" side of things, how things work, things that I can reason through and analyze, an explanation of things [i've got a real knack for analyzing the life out of something! ] In TWI – I was never comfortable with The Holy Spirit/holy spirit thing. And that's just me – I get hung up in things like what you said about Romans 8:26 the spirit makes intercession for us and then verse 34 says Christ. Or when Jesus talked about the Comforter in John 16 – Jesus was going to leave and send Him – but it's Christ in us the hope of glory. Man, so many things I get all muddled together – I wish there was some God-breathed diagrams, flow-charts and schematics in the Bible… I gather from your posts – you are very comfortable in this area – both doctrine-wise and in the experiences you've shared – would you classify your approach as more spiritual – mystical – or something like that? I'm not saying either approach [yours or mine] is the best – or like they're the only ones. And I like your approach because the Bible is a spiritual book. Whereas - I tend to want everything categorized and all tied together - I mean well - but that can sometimes get into like trying to put God in a box! I have to admit I'm a late-bloomer when it comes to all this doctrinal stuff. I left TWI 20 years ago – did a lot of studying, praying, and thinking – but didn't get involved with any off-shoots, a local church or even any type of Christian fellowship. But since I've come to Grease Spot – my old processor has been working overtime. I think that's mostly due to the interplay of ideas with other people. My core belief hasn't changed. I'm still a Christian and believe the Bible is God's book. Now all this doctrinal stuff – I'm still working on it. Speaking in tongues? Drawing on all my past experiences with TWI and what I've gathered from my studies since then – I TEND to think it ceased back in the first century. I could be wrong – but for right now, I cut myself a lot of slack on things like this. I also could be wrong in assigning it a lower priority in my personal study. The way I process things now – is something that works for me. Don't get me wrong – I don't ignore the topic. I'm not nailing the lid down on my study of speaking in tongues…Oakspear, I appreciate you starting this thread. Tom, I truly appreciate what you've shared – and admire your vibrant and adventurous faith!

Yeah, Bagpipes – I sometimes think along the lines of "wonder what the Creator is like? Just look at His creation." Also, another thought I sometimes get when admiring a work of art – or really anything done with a high level of proficiency – I'm taken by the person's mastery of the subject. So – in other words "emotions? God thought 'em up!" Like Doojable was saying – God programmed this feature into our make-up…Tom, that's a pretty heavy statement "Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities" – I like that – gonna have to think about that one awhile. Allan – you got me thinking about God's level of emotional intensity – and purity - compared to ours as fallen creatures. I think sometimes our emotions can get - - mmmm I dunno mixed up with other "stuff" – not saying emotions are wrong – but due to our sinful nature they can work up into a big complicated convoluted mess – where we're no longer experiencing emotions the way God intended. Like Ephesians 4:26 says, "Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger" – in other words quickly handle the matter that's got you angry – instead of letting it build up into something sinful like resentment, hatred, etc. WordWolf – you have pointed out a very simple and yet profound and beautiful aspect of our God's benevolence – the driving force behind it is love!…The word emotion comes from a Latin word emovere, which translates as to move, to excite, to stir up or to agitate. Love is what moved God to send His Son to our rescue. Oh – loved that cool parable, too!

Thank you Oakspear. I always find it enjoyable when discussions get more into discovery than debate. I like it when I learn something about another person, understand a different viewpoint, or even feel challenged to re-examine my own point of view. I think it's mostly that I love the freedom to think! Tom, I can see your point over the significance of circumcision emphasizing God's ability [not theirs] to provide the Messiah. You see speaking in tongues like that – as a method of prayer that defies our mental abilities. I don't mean to take our discussion all over the map – but I think this is a tangent that may have bearing on our dialog about prayer and speaking in tongues. I think for Israel - their practice of circumcision could have had some significance like the one you suggest. However, I think it was mainly a symbol of God's covenant with Israel - and Israel's agreement to keep that covenant with God. I tend to think the significance for each male Israelite was more along the lines of a seal - noting a relationship with God – calling man to obedience. Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise then your heart, and stiffen your neck no more." Man was to "cut off" his stubbornness. Along with the physical act of circumcision, Deuteronomy implies that unless it is accompanied by obedience to God from the heart – it is invalid. Even in the New Testament it has this idea – I Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." I don't see Israel's circumcision as something that discouraged them from using their abilities – but as a symbol to dedicate their abilities to God. Now what would have made no sense to Hebrew males and really would have shown it was in no way within their power – was if God had them cut the entire penis off! Every man would have been stumped for a way to produce the Messiah for sure! Here's what I find incomprehensible about prayer in my understanding. I wonder why an all-powerful God, the creator of the heavens and the earth – who "works all things after the counsel of His will" [Ephesians 1:11] – would ask us to pray in matters of concern - and that our prayers can accomplish much [James 5:16]. I don't think God asks us to do things that make no sense. Just thinking out loud here – how often in the Bible do we find verses that ask us to do something senseless – in my opinion much of the Bible appeals to man's reason [A lot of the wisdom of Proverbs is very practical, many of Jesus' parables are drawn from real situations, Paul's frequent use of logical arguments in Romans]… I do see where we are called to do things that defy the five senses: II Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight."… Mark 13:7 "And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened…"….Romans 10:17 "So faith comes by hearing…" …Mark 5:28 "For she thought, 'If I just touch His garments, I shall get well." Getting back to our discussion on Romans 8:26 – I think the crux of the matter revolves around our different viewpoints of "spirit" in the text. Correct me if I'm wrong – your viewpoint is along the lines of the verse referring to the gift of holy spirit in the believer – my take on it is that it refers to The Holy Spirit. And it is at this point that I run out of steam. Doctrine-wise or experience-wise - - I know very little about holy spirit or The Holy Spirit – but like I said earlier I enjoy discovery. Not saying I want to stop the discussion. I just don't want to derail it – although we have made a few detours – perhaps food for thought on another thread. You've brought it back around to Oakspear's initial post – and have made some very strong points about man's weak points [hee hee], and the need for God's help – even in our prayer life.

Thanks Sudo !!!!!!!!!! I think that middle Rocky Top Girl is kinda hot - bet she likes it ruff!

Tom - I'm from NY - but was not known as T-Bone there - don't think I ever met you. I see what you're saying about subtle nuances not always being such a big deal - and I did not assume anything from the capitalization of "spirit" in the text quoted. However, your last point I highlighted in bold red is exactly why I see Romans 8:26 as NOT referring to speaking in tongues [where you mentioned context and the desired emphasis of the author can dictate the differences]. I covered this in my previous post # 186 under point 2: I was looking at the context of BOTH chapter 7 and 8 - and I tend to think the author wanted to emphasize the work of The Holy Spirit rather than something WE do...I think it's a distinction that IS important - to me - I see it as a vast difference between what I do through my faltering human efforts [Romans 7] and what The Holy Spirit does on our behalf [chapter 8].

Makes you wonder how much of a beating Solomon got from all his wives. ...I can just hear a conversation with his buds - "Hey Sol, how are yer wives treatin' yah?" - Solomon: "Beats me."

I’m always amazed that character-assassination gods [and that’s the lowest case g I could find on my keyboard] are unaware of HOW MUCH their dribble reveals about THEM…….…Abigail, I’m with Belle about you – “Our character speaks for itself and yours is impeccable, my dear.” I always enjoy your posts, frequently learning about some interesting stuff - - - and really just want to say I have a lot of respect for you!

Wow - that would be great to meet you, Belle - but if it doesn't work out for you to make it - at least send the muscadine wine - - thanks! :)

Makes sense to me...........I wonder if bluegrass is blues on grass...

Okay - fine !!! Be that way - - I'll just take my gum off the backside of that painting and leav---- whoa! Wait a minute! I just realized something. The backside of the painting is actually her front - and the front of the painting is actually her backside. Heavy on the realization, dude!

BBQ is actually code for Bring Beer Quickly.

That's really cool, Ala.

Great poem, Bagpipes! A very good description of the on-going healing process we experience.

Hope this isn’t off topic – after thinking more about Oakspear’s term “PFAL-colored glasses” and Markomalley saying those glasses would act as a huge inhibitor to someone doing true scholarly work – I remembered something. I knew a technician who was color-blind – he could not distinguish between the colors red and green – which would be a problem for someone assembling/installing electronic systems using multi-colored wires [which was his job]. It wasn’t for him – he carried a red-colored lens – and he showed me how it worked. He held up the red and green jacketed wires . When he held the red-colored lens in front of the pair - - the red colored wire disappeared! So, the wire he could see was the green colored one…Perhaps the technician’s red lens hiding trick is analogous to the way TWI’s skewed interpretation of the Bible affects its followers – it can render certain things virtually invisible! No one is perfect. All reasoning is done from a viewpoint. I think it’s important to be aware of our own limitations, occasionally re-examining our own viewpoint – as well as seeking out other viewpoints – and strive to be fair-minded in evaluating all points of view.

I think it was at a 40th anniversary conference - Howard is going on about the urgency of the times and says something to the effect of he's not even going hunting anymore - he's just going to spend every waking moment moving the Word. ...Groucho. love your 5th Beatle line !!!!!

Socks - that Indianola is a cool tune - yeah, I like the sound of that bass - it's got some bite to it! Now.........getting back to this guitar thread - I dunno Tom - maybe I'm getting hung up in that semantic thing - but dontcha think the flying V guitar should really be called a flying Y?

Well, I'll be!...Stuck my gum back here 60 years ago - and it's still here!

Moony - I've heard that Mylon tune by someone else - that's really a soulful song - gospel-like...Oh yeah, I think at the same concert was Santana...I used to save all my concert ticket stubs [somewhere I've lost them !!!!!!!! :( ] - and I would write all the other groups at that concert on the back of the ticket stub. My very first concert was Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Chambers Brothers and Soft Machine. Second concert was Cream, Humble Pie, and Terry Reid... Things get fuzzy after that - . Socks - they're all heavy-hitters in Cold Blood and Tower of Power! Man, I love the basswork of TOP's Rocco!!!!!!!!! Moving along in the evolution of my taste - my favorite group for awhile has been The Yellow Jackets - jazz with a sting........Oh yeah -right - Guitar thread - uh mmmmmmm - When I saw Mountain, Leslie West was playing the flying V guitar.

That reminds me - in high school - I used to sit next to Arguello - he would take a black magic marker, scribble all over a piece of paper and then huff it...

I know what you mean about straining gnats - I remember the concern to be accurate in our words in my TWI days. I think a lot of that was really learning TWI doublespeak. Here's part of Wikipedia's definition of semantics: "In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as borne on the syntactic levels of words, phrases, sentences, and sometimes larger units of discourse, generically referred to as texts. As with any empirical science, semantics involves the interplay of concrete data with theoretical concepts, and specializations have developed that focus on different parts of that interaction, for example, the semantics of natural languages and formal languages, respectively. Depending on the perspective taken up, semantics may include the study of connotative sense and denotative reference, truth conditions, argument structure, thematic roles, discourse analysis, and the linkage of all of these to syntax." I agree with Tom - as far as how some ex-TWI folk may have a tendency to pick and pick. But I do think it's helpful and necessary at times to ask someone to clarify what they mean by saying something a certain way or even to ask them how they define a word they used...Also we are at a disadvantage dialogging over the Internet - missing out on the body language, inflections, etc...

I don't mean to brag - but I think I've become proficient at putting my foot in my mouth. I thought that's what TWI meant by walking the talk. :)

Funny DMiller !!! Best Line: "...me so holy..."

Yo - Socks - Tower of Power - now there's a hefty group! I remember an old concert at Fillmore East - Mountain, Tower of Power and Mylon LeFevre and Holy Smoke...Have you ever heard Mylon's tune "We Believe that Peace begins within" ? - man oh man it's smokin'

Thanks, Paw !!!! Entered the number from my battery and it came back saying "no need to replace - so ignore Tom's temptation."