T-Bone

I think at times I have such a minimalist idea of worship – that it's only when I consciously turn my thoughts to God in some form of heart communion. That is certainly one aspect of worship. But after considering the following verses I think I need to broaden my concept of worship. I have noted a linkage in bold red. Matthew 4: 10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" [NIV] Romans 1: 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen. [NIV] I think what we do can be an occasion to worship as suggested in Colossians 3:23 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men…" [NIV]. What do you think is the connection of "worship" and "serve" in Matthew and Romans?

I wish you all would quit making fun of my journal - yah know it ain't helping sales any !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is an understatement! Welcome to Grease Spot, Imagine.

Just curious - what happened to the guy?

That is hilarious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I put that right up there with the Athletes of the Spirit video - I think there's even a devil spirit category for it - Nifty and Nautilus.

I think the two terms indicate a distinction that some see between the two experiences. Xenoglossia referring to the instances of speaking in tongues in the Bible – which I think were genuine – in other words having God as their source. Glossolalia referring to the current practice among Charismatic churches and other groups – which Samarin and other linguistic experts have concluded is a language made up by the speaker. You bring up a good point, Tom – how can we compare the two? I guess there weren't any scientific/linguistic studies conducted on speaking in tongues during the book of Acts period. However there is the testimony of the audience on the day of Pentecost saying they understood what was said - that it was real languages. So, that is what my mind keeps going back to in searching for any criteria by which to judge... I can't say I know for a fact exactly what the believers back then thought, believed, or what happened in the spiritual dimension of their lives… What data comes out of these current linguistic experts' studies concurs with what some of us on this thread have expressed about our experiences. For me – it broadens the gap between glossolalia and xenoglossia. I for one want to make a distinction between the current day practice of glossolalia and the xenoglossia in the New Testament. Because I want to believe that what occurred in the Bible was genuine. As I said in post #128 on this thread – it would be great if some Charismatic group would submit a recording of their speaking in tongues and interpretation to a panel of linguistic experts. If people are going to claim what they do today is exactly what was done back then – how about we try to establish some standards or criteria for a legitimate claim?

[ To see the word "hell" used as an exclamation while talking about words from the Holy Spirit is pretty funny – maybe it's just my quirky sense of humor…] From what you're saying - someone seeking this speaking in tongues experience has a lot of things to consider/check out/determine: 1. It could be from God. 2. It could be from the devil. 3. It could be something their mind made up…In my opinion this represents a very subjective and confusing process. What criteria would be used to determine these things?…Just some thoughts here about the book of Acts days: Was there that much of an issue of speaking in tongues being counterfeit? Was speaking in tongues a key "selling point" of Christianity? Does it appear to be a core element of their preaching? As a Christian and firm believer in the Bible being God's Word – I still have to admit I believe the assurance promised to believers is a very personal – subjective thing. I don't think it's a "Signs, Miracles and Wonders-on-demand" feature that God offers to believers who really want to be in the know. I think VPW had a bad habit of deciding to believe something beforehand - then twisting Scripture to support it. In TWI I've heard the following two verses used to prove the validity of TWI's speaking in tongues experience: In John 7:17 Jesus said, "…If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." And in I John 3:24 "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." Two people can read both those verses and come away with two different meanings. It comes down to personal viewpoint. Someone else may say the verses can be used to validate the speaking in tongues experience. From my viewpoint [and experience] I gather the verses are talking about something – perhaps almost indescribable – that happens to me at a very deep and personal level of my consciousness as I obey Scripture – and according to those verses God is somehow involved in the experience. This is something that is subjective – it can't be proved or argued about in a debate. But it is a very real and solid aspect of my belief system – and in my opinion something based on a process that honors God and energizes this Christian thing called "faith." Sorry – I tend to go on a rant when I think about the basis for TWI's confidence – VPW's interpretation on select verses. I have a real problem with his sloppy methodology. In the two verses I cited above the crux of the matter is really over a simple question: What was Jesus' "teaching" in John 7:17 and what were "his commands" in I John 3:24? The systematic theology books and commentaries I've read that get into these verses do so through methods very familiar to PFAL grads, Bullinger fans, and really anyone who is proficient at reading a book like a normal person. Where VPW's sloppy methodology becomes evident to me is where he ignored the basic rules of interpretation in favor of his viewpoint. So a verse with the word "spirit" in it can become a reference to speaking in tongues – as we've argued before over Romans 8:26. Instead of the Scriptures being the criteria for determining if the experience is genuine - TWI typically used experience to validate their interpretation of Scripture. As DrtyDzn said, "VP taught that SIT could not be counterfeited, that's why it was the proof in the senses realm of the internal reality of being born again." What Scripture references did VPW use to back this up? What I find alarming in the phrase "...the comfort of what Wirewille was saying…" is how that attitude can lull the critical mind to sleep. And especially knowing the tendency of fallen man towards self-deception! Jeremiah 17: 9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure…" Proverbs 14: 12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Just a few thoughts here: It seems to me the really important stuff in the Bible is stated very plain and leaves little room for doubt as to what it means. Is there any question that adultery or murder is wrong? Is there any question as to whether or not the Bible portrays Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind? And after considering the fact that VPW thought nothing wrong with committing adultery nor saw the importance of keeping Jesus Christ as the focal point of his ministry - I really don't trust anything he says about things in the Bible that aren't so clear.

That's sad. I liked the guy and his show.

DMiller, so sorry to hear of the loss of your sister. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. And it really sickens me to see such inequity in the justice system...Thanks for sharing the heart and life of your sister on the In Memoriam thread.

An excellent thread, Hope…This thread got me to remember a description I heard while in TWI – not sure of the origin of it. The context I heard it in was in putting down a regular church in favor of a TWI fellowship. A typical church pastor was likened to a bus driver [now I heard this a couple of years before Passing of the Patriarch – so hold off on the snickers] in charge of carrying the congregation somewhere - with many of the members falling asleep on the bus – this was meant to show how churches did not foster spiritually active people – in other words laziness. While this may be true of some mainstream churches – I now think it’s ironic – in that is exactly what I saw happening in TWI fellowships in my TWI-days. I think some ex-TWI folk have a hard time getting over the pride of doctrinal-know-it-all-ism – when they scan the horizon for an acceptable form of church community nothing comes close to being good enough. I’m not saying doctrine isn’t important. But for me, coming out of a group that saw themselves as the present day Ephesians – holders of the greatest revelation given to the church – there’s a humbling realization I came to after reading Revelation 1: 17 to 3: 22. This is where Jesus Christ gives a message to seven different churches. The first church He spoke about was the one at Ephesus – He said they were hard working and concerned with doctrinal truth – BUT – they had forsaken their first love. His words to them were, “Repent and do the things you did at first…” Revelation 2:5…I think it’s an interesting section to read when considering what Jesus Christ thinks is important in a church. Five of the churches He had negative comments to say about them and called for them to repent. But two of the churches He had encouraging words and told them to keep on with what they were doing. My wife and I have switched from looking for a church that lines up with our beliefs point-by-point - to trying to be sensitive to what church our Lord Jesus Christ thinks we should serve in. We have done some church-shopping awhile ago – and still have not committed to any one in particular – really a lot of our hesitancy due to scheduling conflicts with our jobs – and – yes – some concerns out of getting involved with a Christian group again…For now – our church is Grease Spot – hallelujah!!!!!! Can I get an amen from Reverend Pawtucket.

I cannot answer either of these questions – I referenced Samarin's book as it was quoted in a Systematic Theology book. There are some links below that would indicate Samarin may fall into a cessation's viewpoint. http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1973/v30-3-bookreview8.htm http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Glossolalia http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues1.htm http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/speakingtongues.htm

Yeah Paw Yeah

Welcome to Grease Spot, Wrinkled. Great first post!!!!!!!!!! Let me see………….hmmmmmmmm…..the reason for your chosen name is because you feel like a million bucks after leaving TWI – all green and wrinkled? Excathedra – I think you’ve really got something there. A handy-dandy term that might be useful: “My twig coordinator says I’m suffering from Chronic Cult Disorders Syndrome. I frequently show disrespect to orders issued by any TWI leader. He also said if I don’t experience the submission phase soon – it may escalate to the omission phase [Mark and Avoid].” RumRunner – I love your job descriptions – and especially after what ChasUFarley, LindyHopper and Belle added – we may have stumbled onto a heretofore-secret Tenth Manifestation of the Spirit: Discrimination of Employees. I’m sure TWI’s Human Resource Department has quite a few excellor sessions!

That's hilarious, Pirate !!!!!!!!!!! .....Well, at least they'll sell it on ebay and the money goes to charity.....Shows yah - you can get some pretty good $h1t on ebay!

CA - -

If you're referring to the pictures - you're right - beach shots are at South Padre Island, Texas.

Happy Birthday Medic's Wife !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, can I get one of you ladies to light the candles on the cake with your Mommy Stare. :)

We went to Victoria - stayed at a great Bed-and-Breakfast Amore by the Sea. Tonto turned me on to Sarah M and Joni - great vocalists! I mentioned this earlier on this thread my avatar is a picture of me on my grandpa's porch in Nova Scotia. Beautiful place! ...Okay - speaking of avatars - your poor little elbows and knees have got to be aching by now - why don't you sit down and take a break....But seriously - can you phonetically spell how your name [a la prochaine] is pronounced - oh and what does it mean?

Great point, Johniam !!! That makes me think about how rich and informative a face-to-face conversation is - pretty much goes along with what Ex10 was saying about understanding God when He expresses Himself. Whenever someone is talking to me in person - I get a message loaded with additional info - picking up on their body language, inflections, passion, etc..... After hearing enough snippets of Cry of the Soul from Bagpipes I had to buy the darn book! I've just started reading it - I've gotten so intrigued about this God/emotions stuff. Just thinking out loud here: emotions being a part of the language [or message] when God communicates with us...getting excited about exploring my emotions as one would study word-origins and clichés of their native tongue.

Great topic, GirlfromOz…I would say what is partly self-defining about my involvement with TWI is a twofold after-the-fact realization. I think personal failures and successes define who we are [in terms of how we deal with both] – and so if I ever talk to someone about being in a cult – I go along the lines of two implied questions: 1. How does a normal person get duped into something like this? Answer: by turning off their critical thinking skills. 2. How does a normal person move on from something like this? The answer will vary for everyone of course – and that is the springboard for my personal testimony of deliverance. As far as the criteria for me talking about such a revealing aspect of my life there’s a few things I keep in mind. It is not something I reveal right off the bat – I would like people to get to know me in this present context of life. Typically, I’m revealing it to another Christian if I deem it necessary in helping/inspiring them or to someone who I sense is becoming a closer friend to me. I have had only one “bad reaction” after my revelation – but it eventually turned out okay. At a former job another Christian thought he could brow-beat me with his “right doctrine” since I had to be such a dummy for getting in TWI. Well, that lasted a couple of months [you can’t wear me down – I’m Corps dammit! LOL ] – and evolved into us loaning books to each other – and leveled off into having some great heart-to-heart talks about things we all wrestle with in our Christian walk.