T-Bone

Welcome to Grease Spot Café, Simone - and may I offer you some "electric" French Vanilla Cappuccino - and it goes really good with one of these Brownies from my stash.

Thanks, WhiteDove, Top, and Chas - those are GREAT pics!!!!!!!!!!!..........Ok - let's see......gotta dust off memory lane...fun topic WD!....My first kiss was in the schoolyard - I think maybe 4th or 5th grade - this girl Catherine liked me - she walked up to me - and SHE kissed me! Wow - hadn't thought about that in a long long long time! .......Oh boy - do yah think I ought to let Tonto know?

To Mentor and Son of Mentor – who says?!?! Since you're in doctrinal please provide some Scriptural basis for your "definitions" – which smack of TWI-gobbledygook. I think Excathedra got yah on that one, Greg: Mentor and Son of Mentor, instead of merely absorbing and regurgitating TWI-jargon – try analyzing it – see if it jives with the ENTIRE Bible. This was a GREAT weakness of VPW and with TWI – they had a compartmentalized theology – lording the epistles above the Old Testament and the Gospels – instead of a unified approach. And really even their belief system is compartmentalized – they don't see inconsistencies across various topics. And it's always interesting to see how malleable TWI's viewpoint is: if they want you to hate what they hate they make it a big issue over the integrity of the Word being at stake; if they want you to ignore their gross misconduct then they rattle off a bunch of forgiving/loving verses. It's like an ordained chameleon behind the podium! I find fault with your suggesting to think only the best of people, ignoring the reality that evil doers exist. A passage that immediately came to mind talks of a believer who did just the opposite of what you recommend. Psalm 139:19-22: 19. If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! 20. They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. 21. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord, and abhor those who rise up against you? 22. I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. What about the many passages in Proverbs that not only instructs us to do things God's way [the way of wisdom] but also directs us to identify and avoid evil doers? A couple come to mind: Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice you, do not give in to them. Proverbs 4:14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked or walk in the way of evil men. Anyway – to recap today's comments: if you want to define biblical words – it makes sense to actually look in the Bible - and engage your brain before typing on the keyboard. Try that – instead of parroting TWI-speak – you might actually start a productive discussion.

Here’s a definition I found at http://biblebrowser.com/ in the Bible in Basic English version of Romans 12:9 Let love be without deceit. Be haters of what is evil; keep your minds fixed on what is good. (BBE) Greg, you might want to pass that reference on to your mentor. It’s amazing how easy it is to find a good simple definition of a Christian virtue like love – in of all places – the Bible!

Okay - well now there's another issue you might consider... Your mentor thinks it's okay to deceive people. Are you sure you want a person like that as a mentor?....Were you ever in the Corps?

...Well, Greg - I must admit I'm a little put off by your initial dishonesty - and kind of odd - your topic being about defining Charity - putting on the mind of Christ, etc....Don't you think that's a real thread-killer?... I dunno - maybe it's just me -

That is correct, Appleseed – I do not like VPW – for intellectual and moral reasons. Intellectually - as far as doctrine goes – I think he did not adhere to the basic principles of interpretation. Which becomes evident when you read the PFAL books without "TWI-glasses" on – you know – just reading the stuff like any normal person would who has never taken PFAL and/or who has not turned off their critical thinking skills. Morally – that he plagiarized much of his work [which you can read about on other threads]; he lied about his study of Greek from the Moody Bible Correspondence School which he claimed in the book The Way: Living in Love [proof of which I posted a letter from them on GSC stating they have no record of him completing any courses with them]. And most notably his lecherous lifestyle – through the course of which he not only preyed upon numerous innocent women but endeavored to sabotage the moral compass of his leadership-in-training [the Way Corps] by his example – all of which you can also read about on other threads – and if you want my personal experience you can read this thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=261269

You also might want to think in context of where you're posting - [this dedication in] the memory of VPW probably won't go over real big with a lot of the folks at GSC, imho. :) ....oooooppps!!!!! Where's my manners - welcome to Grease Spot, Appleseed!

From my Christian point of view I would have to agree with Evan. And in my humble opinion, I think it’s really a compound problem. We are a fallen race – sin being the corrupting virus that it is - has tainted every aspect of our being. So right from the get-go we have a pre-configured tendency to deviate from what is right. As Paul speaks of the sin that dwells in us [Romans 7:17]. Sin even skews our perception of things as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:3 the plank being in my eye. Which all means as we “perceive” our world and interact with it - we often do in fact deviate from doing what is right. Christian author Jay Adams often addresses this compound problem [our sin nature and sinful tendencies] in his books that deal with counseling situations. For example, one Christian wrongs another. Sometimes the offended party may overreact, respond in kind, harbor a grudge, etc. Two wrongs don’t make a right. And it doesn’t minimize the first wrong by the offender. But it does complicate the situation for the counselor in terms of helping both parties towards reconciliation. And in tying this in with WordWolf’s comments about what is the greatest secret in the world today. I would say for me personally is how do I see around this plank in my eye – without pulling it out? I’m sort of kidding here – but for Jesus to say we should first pull out the plank in our own eye before helping another person get the dust out of their eye – makes me wonder how often I ignore His directive.

No -- technically the 60's are the 09's upside down -

I'm with yah on that one - which is a pretty good indication that we WERE there!

Ditto on what Groucho said.

In the Power For Astronomical Logistics class we learn that astronauts literally believe Mars is a planet – indicated by their action toward the planet. As far as everyone else – “they don’t do much interplanetary travel because of their unbelief.” :blink:

Great stories, everyone! Reminds me of the time I TRIED to give a cat we had a flea-dip in a five gallon bucket. It's not gonna happen! I fought the cat - and the cat won! I think she sprouted more paws during the skirmish - had lots of scratches on my hands and forearms to prove it. Me - ooooooooouch!

Thanks, Pond for this and all your posts that have revealed your thoughts, opinions, and doctrine on quite a few subjects.

Holy cow !!!!! Tom, I freaked when you used that song! I thought it was a subliminal message telling me to return to TWI. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!! .........sorry I'm in a joking mood tonight....And seriously - it has been great yakking with you on this thread.

Thanks, Pond – there are a lot of things I want to read. In thinking over your posts on this thread, I'd say you've got enough material to start quite a few doctrinal threads :) …Bringing it back to the issues related to this thread – let me see if I've got a clear understanding of our different viewpoints. You believe the unborn do NOT bear the image of God and that there is nothing morally wrong with deliberately aborting a fetus. I believe the unborn DOES bear the image of God and [except in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy] think that deliberately aborting a fetus is morally wrong – equivalent to murder.

I like that entire excerpt from Max, Tom. That's very applicable for our discussion...I was thinking more of a line from a Grateful Dead's tune "...what a long strange trip it's been." ....But seriously I did like that excerpt - and your response to me. Thanks

…Pond – this is great – we're discussing a key issue relevant to our topic and perhaps one of several areas where our viewpoints differ. If all men do not have the image of God, as you say, then why does Genesis 9:6 say "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man"? That seems all-inclusive to me – in other words suggesting every man bears the image of God [as implied in a similar reference in James 3:9, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness."]. The way I understand it, since the fall of man that image of God in man is still there but distorted as all other aspects of his being have been touched by sin. Perhaps another point where we differ is on the topic of death. The way I understand it death is separation. Men are born spiritually dead. What is spiritual death? In Genesis God warned Adam and Eve that they would die [spiritually] if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Spiritual death is separation from God. Man still had the image of God – albeit negatively impacted by their rebellion. What is physical death? The separation of body and soul. The theological basis in your post seems to go along the lines of TWI's threefold view of man – that he can be neatly dissected into three categories: body, soul and spirit. I no longer feel that doctrine is supported by Scripture. I hold to a more unified view of man. I understand soul and spirit to indicate different aspects of the same thing – the immaterial part of man. Similar to Jesus quoting the Old Testament in Mark 12:30, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." I guess we could say from that verse man is a fourfold being :) …Another verse that leads me to think the soul is that immaterial/spiritual part of man is Matthew 10:28, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." I understand this to be referring to the second death, or eternal death – eternal separation from God. I do apologize to everyone for digressing like this – I know I do tend to get a little verbose in my posts. However, I feel this is one of those topics that can't be handled lightly with a few pat answers – but may call upon us to declare our theological/philosophical underpinnings in order to reveal personal viewpoints/assumptions on key issues.

…The Bible says man was made in the image of God. That is why murder is forbidden according to Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" [NIV]. Pond, if all human beings bear the image of God – and if the fetus is considered another human being – wouldn't it be logical to conclude that God thinks abortion is wrong? Pond, perhaps you missed the detail in Psalm 139:13 "…you knit me together in my mother's womb…". This indicates two things: the action is taking place inside the mother's womb [not referring to Genesis when God made man out of the dust of the earth] and that some how God is involved with this action in the womb. And yes this psalm is man praising God for His wonderful work – that does not take away from the truth that the psalm is still inspired of God. Any more so than Genesis is man's description of God's creation – a record written by man yet inspired of God.

Pond, thank you for responding – a personal AND intelligent conversation as you mentioned would be most enjoyable. :) I would think my questions are very relevant to abortion [abortion on this thread defined as the deliberate – intentional – termination of a pregnancy]. Since murder [the premeditated and deliberate act of taking another person's life] is forbidden by God [Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."], I thought it would be sensible to search the Scriptures to see if God considered the fetus a person. Which according to Psalm 139:13-16 it appears He does – and so my conclusion is that abortion is murder too.

Perfect, Peruser !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some threads really strike a nerve. For me, this is one of them. After mulling over everyone's posts I got inspired to write a poem for this thread. Raised from the Dead What happens when you're raised from the dead? How is it done when you've been gone for a long while? It's got to be an amazing sight to see – on cold pale face – suddenly there dawns a warm smile. I died in a dungeon – it was dark, dank, and boring. There were no walls or chains that held me. Just a rumor that there was no outside – A spell was cast – a slow death guaranteed. Some say it was a suicide – I can't argue with that - but that solitary confinement drove me over the edge. Cut off from those who loved me – who wouldn't have shoved me – an hermetically sealed bag of emotions perched on the twelfth story ledge. If the Warden snapped his fingers I could cry on cue, or squelch a feeling that would have given life meaning. Life got to be so dark, dank and boring – A frustrated marionette in self-mourning – that felt like screaming. What happened to raise me from the dead? How was it done when feeling was gone for so long? It's got to be an amazing sight to see – in a cold dark heart – embers are rekindled – life dawns! Like a wheel within a wheel - there's me and there's what I can feel turning about. I escaped from prison a long time ago – now this resurrection is turning me inside out!

Pond, how can you assert abortion is not murder according to Bible standards when YOU have NOT addressed what the Bible says about a fetus? What is the Biblical standard for murder or for being a human being? Why are you ignoring my post # 156 on Psalm 139:13-16? Why haven't YOU discussed any Scripture in reference to my questions below?

Did you mean "runs" or "ruins"?