T-Bone

Allan - my apologies!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I wasn't clear - I thought I wouldn't mention names - But who I had in mind was another person that recently came on GSC [or actually an old timer with a new name - his poor grammar and lack of logic were terribly familiar - at least he could count to 3] and as the thread got rolling said he actually was posting for his mentor on MySpace.... ...And it does not frustrate me that you and others have found the PFAL class somewhat beneficial. I could say the same thing for myself - I enjoyed a lot of the stuff from Bullinger -so I guess we'd have to get detailed on specific parts. :) ....Again - please accept my apology - I definitely do NOT classify you in the same category as the aforementioned poster. You appear to be upfront and I know what side of the PFAL divide you sit. My saying that I prefer you always be honest in your posts was referring to your - I guess sarcastic comment - that you would remember to keep things negative about VP. So the point I was making was that you should CONTINUE to be open, honest and upfront about your viewpoint. I admire your courage in coming to a website where your viewpoint on PFAL seems to be in the minority....Quite often it is a clearly stated viewpoint far different from mine that becomes a catalyst for me to re-think my ideas on something. Sometimes that may mean: I'm slowly changing my position on something, or maybe taking it to another level, or maybe expand my concept, or maybe indicating I need to look into it further, maybe confirming or validating a theory I already hold, etc....That - believe it or not Allan - was my motivation behind what I said to you. It is my humble opinion and hokey belief that when people are upfront and honest in their contributions on a thread - then all the participants will benefit from issues becoming clearer, learning, sharing, etc.

Have a Happy Birthday cruising through the stratosphere Like an Eagle!

Allan, this is an open forum - you're entitled to voice your opinion. And I would prefer that you always be honest in your posts. Your opinions don't bother me at all. What is frustrating to me is when someone comes on GSC and poses as someone else or is not upfront with where they're coming from. That is such a waste of everyone's time - as people dialog with that person - it becomes more about exposing their hidden agenda instead of exploring an idea.

You might want to qualify those terms a little bit better....Personally I would say much of the kind of information in VPW's class is erroneous and eclectic - and I'm glad it never made its way into mainstream Christianity - to pollute it!....Yeah, VPW is the man that stole the work of other people - and had the nerve to call it his own.

Yeah – it sorta looks that way doesn't it? It hits me like that too, ShortFuse. It got me thinking – what does it take to buy into bs. I read about this term "the theory of cognitive dissonance" in Hasaan's book on combating cults – and copied part of the definition pasted below from Wikipedia: "Cognitive dissonance is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, which can be defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior; in laymen's terms, it is the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. Experiments have attempted to quantify this hypothetical drive." Maybe that explains why people will talk themselves into something. People don't like experiencing internal dissonance. And perhaps also explains why leaders that are self-deceived come across as so sincere - and therefore good at convincing others. Because they're NOT acting – but really believe the stuff! That would make it tricky for people who are use to spotting a phony by looking for some giveaway clue from body language, voice inflection, etc. If the salesman is truly convinced of his own snake oil – only an independent lab may give you a better idea of what's in the snake oil.

Here's a website by Pawtucket It's not for TWI – but to buck it! I was so tempted to use A foul word in this muse – But instead to Houston I'll truck it.

"The integrity of the Word is at stake." That was always the best diversionary tactic TWI could activate. It was always leadership's trump card - designed to override anyone's suspicions of their misconduct. The year before I went in the corps - I assisted the branch coordinator. He was kinda dishonest in his business practices - and just about everyone in the branch knew it that worked for him. I was one of the last ones to figure that out - being apprentice corps and wanting to be "spiritual" and all. I remember his wife praising me for being one of the few believers in the area that still held onto the integrity of the Word - not joining in all the murmuring going on about her husband. [oh wow!!!! that's another loaded word to manipulate yah! We had umpteen teachings that year on how sinful it was to murmur]. This "integrity of the Word is at stake" bs came into play big time during the crisis management phase after POP. Man, I could show you frustrating dialogs in my letters to corps buddies - where as I kept citing specific issues/doctrines/practices that needed to be addressed - my words would bounce off that impenetrable phrase they'd fire back at me "you're being deceived - the integrity of the Word is at stake!"

Cool thread, Roy. Makes me think of something Jesus said in Matthew 15:7-9 7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'" That pretty much sums up the focus of TWI's theological system. So - to frame my answer in response to your thread heading: TWI's doctrines were instrumental in getting me to re-direct my worship of God and my desire to please Him - to serving their organization and striving to please its leadership.

And I have to agree with you there also. You use a good analogy of experiencing divorce. It does get very complicated trying to unwind the intellectual/emotional entanglement in our heads...There is more to TWI's downfall than what's been said here - lots more - depending on your viewpoint. And on that note here's mine: I think God Almighty had the biggest hand in orchestrating the meltdown! He doesn't like idolatry, hypocrisy on a grand scale, abusing people in His name, substituting sexual predators for the Head of the Church who is Jesus Christ, religious leaders building intellectual/emotional/immoral barriers that block the way to understanding the Bible and even approaching God, sabotaging the moral compass He put in us [our conscience] and a million other gross sins - but basically giving Christianity a bad name... You might find a study of the apostle Paul helpful. He was really committed to his religion - knew the Old Testament very well - and found no room for Jesus Christ in his belief system. Read the accounts of his conversion in Acts and read through his epistles - imagine the intellectual/emotional crisis he went through. Meeting Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus was like running into a brick wall for his theological system - you know he had to re-think so many things - and take off those Pharisee-colored glasses. And perhaps like his life after conversion - our lives are after leaving TWI. It is a life long journey of recovery - of sorting out all that we experienced and determining to make our lives better because of and/or in spite of it!

But now I see, during the crisis after POP I was in such turmoil. I was more than sad - it was like hearing your best friend has inoperable cancer. At first feeling like the wind was yanked out of my sails - but as time passed I have found my faith energized by reading the Bible with the freedom to think for myself. You are passionate about how Corinthians shows how things should be handled in the church. You'll NEVER see that happen at TWI - they just play church! Another big deal was coming to the realization that my downfall was in absorbing TWI teachings while in it - rather than engaging my brain and analyzing them - yes that's where real "vitality" comes from - when your mind figures something out! It's electrifying when we use our noggin' - because God designed it to be used - that's smart faith! Furthermore - imho we didn't lose anything by this disruption in TWI's kingdom - I'm glad it happened - it freed a lot of people...I really like the way Goey put things so I thought I'd bring them up again:

A classic case of the bus driver trying to hijack the bus.

I think Rascal, Groucho and GreasyTech [thanks for posting that signed letter] just about summed up what the BOT didn't do. I'll tell you what else they didn't do - exert their usual overbearing control over TWI followers during this time - which allowed for a lot of people TO THINK - and hence an escalating mass exodus! Free!!! Free at last!!!!!!!!

Happy Birthday, Bluzeman!!!!!!!!

I've not only seen the movie, PinkLady - I was one of those TWI Stepford Christians for 12 years. And sort of along the same formula - as long as I obeyed leadership everything was hunky dory [my wife Tonto and I were both in the Corps - Stepford Factory]...I like how you've been analyzing the erroneous doctrines, mentioned in your first post. Isn't it great to have the freedom to think!...Continue to out-think those robots, and always feel free to think out loud here at Grease Spot. If you haven't done so yet - check out Live Chat sometime - it's a great place to hang out - you might even run into some ladies that have had similar experiences - and can offer some words of wisdom and support!

Yes I think we're getting closer to the end times. I remember the day of 9/11 – I actually thought it was happening! It's scary how quickly reason can go out the window in a major catastrophic event! When it comes to the topic of the Rapture, the Return of Christ, end times, etc. I often recall the irresponsible attitudes TWI's teachings fostered. I remembered traveling to a big area meeting with our branch coordinator – the whole trip he kept encouraging me to loosen up on my purse strings at restaurants [what little money my wife and I had living the "more than abundant TWI lifestyle" ] – and it was usually chipping in more than our share towards the check. As always he'd launch into one of his polished, slick salesman mode of monologues referring to the imminent return of Christ justifying such a cavalier attitude towards finances. Sorry to bring this up in doctrinal but I thought it's an important aspect – how doctrine affects practice. Since I left TWI I try to focus more on the here and now – and what my Lord wants me to do – and the short answer is ---- live responsibly! That is His point in Matthew 25:1-13 about the 10 bridesmaids – 5 wise bridesmaids brought extra oil since they didn't know when the bridegroom was returning. And I also think about Paul's words in II Thessalonians 3:7-13. After talking about the Rapture and the Return of Christ [in both I and II Thessalonians] Paul in this passage mentions how he and the others with him did not live an undisciplined life – but they actually worked for a living! Not like the busybodies in verse 11 that didn't work. I think sometimes when we focus on end times stuff – we forget about our own "end time" – what time we each have left to live. I think of Jesus' parable in Luke 12:16-21 of the rich man planning to build more storage barns – not knowing he will die that night. Jesus' comment was that the man didn't plan on storing any riches with God. This passage makes me add some forward thinking to the idea of living responsibly here and now from Matthew 25 and II Thessalonians 3. I'm to gear up for whatever is next on God's timetable – by living responsibly for God right now!

I imagine it would be tuned to the days of the week… :) Anyway – Oak, I do like Clark’s arsenal of basses and techniques. I especially like on Light as a Feather album where he uses a Wah Wah Pedal on an acoustic bass while he bows it! Waysider – when you mentioned McLaughlin’s acoustic work - I’ve got a great CD of Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin and Paco DeLucia Friday Night in San Francisco – it’s one rip roaring flamenco-like acoustic fret scorcher! Recorded in 1980…I had a great LP – that I just loved – all acoustic stuff by McLaughlin with Larry Coryell…I’ll have to see if I can find it on CD. Chatty – thanks for that Clark clip – I realized something while watching/listening – when you have worked your way up from the bottom to become the Master of the Bottom – you can hire another bass player to provide the backbone while you mess around.

There's a LOT in your post, Bramble - and it makes a lot of sense to me...I find myself agreeing with many of your points....What continues to draw me to Grease Spot is the variety of viewpoints. I no longer perceive viewpoints different from mine as threatening. And really - I must admit sometimes I've even got a subtle nudge to my noggin that I may need to expand my concept of something in the Bible from someone who isn't a Christian! Perhaps I'm stating the obvious if you get the drift of my previous post. :)

Whoopee!!!!!!!!!! It's great to hear your kids are no longer socking it to the man! Here's to your recovery -

Yikes!!!!!! You are in my thoughts and prayers, PinkLady!...Don't drop your guard/self-defense for the sake of some piece of mind you think you'll have. That's foolish!....I hope you have some friends around where you live - for support. There's some smart/strong women here at Grease Spot - come here - visit - see who you find a connection with!......Alright - so it sounds like you're not out of the woods yet - now is not the time to kick back and sort through everything - you've got the rest of your life for that - you may have to endure through a few storms right now.... What you're experiencing is still spiritual abuse!!!!!!!!!!!! Nows the time to stand up for your emotional/physical/intellectual/spiritual life!!!!!!!

I wonder if that was Larry Coryell? I had a whole album with those two on acoustic guitars...I've got Return to Forever's Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy - love it! And their Light as a Feather CD features Stanley Clark's unique acoustic bass style.

keep it coming Oakman!...Hey, on the jazz fusion stuff - what did you like? I got into John McLaughlin for awhile before/during/after Mahavishnu Orchestra - some of his technique was like a nervous twitch on speed - I could only take it for so long....Anyway - do share some more behind the music scenes - cool stuff!

Yup, TempleLady - you've struck a big note there with me!....Oh boy - I think back on my TWI prayer life - how presumptuous! How self-centered! My oh my how we'd boss God around ...One day not long after splitting from Waysville I was reading James 4:13-15 where it talks about people who have money-making ideas and big plans - but they don't know what tomorrow brings. Verse 15 says [with emphasis on the part that kicked me in the butt in bold red] "Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."

Sorry, Bramble – I don't think we've adequately addressed your first post – and it has some very meaty issues that I have wrestled with before! A key passage in Romans usually comes to mind: Romans 2:4-16 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. …From the above passage it appears to me that: God will judge people – NOT on what they don't know [perhaps never even hearing of the Gospel] but on what they DO with what they do know. There are people who seek after the nobler things in life and usually take the high road. There are also some who are self-centered and whatever truth they do know – deliberately go against it. God will not show favoritism with anyone – but will be just and fair with each according to what they did on earth… Verse 7 seems to imply that eternal life is given to those who persevere in doing good – in other words getting into heaven by good works. However, as I keep re-reading this section it hits me as beginning with outward appearances – what people do, what we can see – and then goes beneath the surface of what drives them – what is in their hearts – how they responded to that inner moral compass. Perhaps it is God honoring their "faith," their acting on what truth they do know [as God did in crediting righteousness to Abraham]. And I find it interesting that whether or not they heard the Gospel - the person that will judge these secrets of the heart is Jesus Christ! In my humble opinion that makes perfect sense – being the Son of Man [which by the way was how He most often referred to Himself] – He was human, He knows what it's like living in the world – and yet He is the Word made flesh – God's Law/God's Truth Incarnate! When in TWI I used to be so hasty in writing someone off if they didn't accept my caricature of God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, etc. Now – I don't know – not saying I've got an accurate view of anything now – but I'm very aware of how limited MY VIEWPOINT of things is!!!! I don't think God was surprised when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden – like He was caught off guard. And I bet God looks at people a whole lot differently than we do – I don't think He's in a quandary over what to do with the Aborigines who have never heard of Christ.

Welcome to Grease Spot, PinkLady! I think you've come to the right place to help sort out this TWI mess. As far as erasing the years of spiritual abuse I don't think that's possible – it would be denying reality. But judging by your post it appears you are putting some distance between yourself and any further spiritual abuse. As a Christian I'd have to say the things that have helped me the most are: Reading the Bible with the freedom to think, analyzing [as opposed to absorbing] all TWI doctrines and practices, having another person to talk to about this TWI stuff – which has been my wife Tonto and Grease Spot patrons….I sort of know what you mean about the low self-esteem stuff. I go through that every once and awhile – I think sometimes that's the old TWI-way-of-thinking-patterns - - - or maybe I'm impatient with the healing process. For me it can be thoughts like "How could I have been so stupid to have not seen that?!" I like what ShortFuse shared about finding out what YOU like, what YOU think, etc. That works for me – it's a fun journey of re-discovery!

Cool interview stuff, Oak - it would be great to hear some more of your DJ/Interview adventures....You're right - the Hi Ho Silver Lining and Tally Man are on Beckology under The First Solo Singles....I'm really getting into Beck's early stuff with The Tridents and The Yardbirds. It's a great anthology!