T-Bone

These are great - thanks, Sudo!

It would be really handy to have if they start having the Rock again.

If there is - I think using her real name would be appropriate.

I almost went into shock seeing that name. She was one of our L.E.A.D. instructors way back when - whew -what a drill sergeant!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about a little warning before you post something like that again -

What a fun thread, Dancing! Amazing article, Lindy - for me being an old sci-fi buff I get so excited hearing about technology like that! I think imagination is quite an unfathomable resource our Creator has given us. I think when people design something there's some kind of pairing up of roles in our heads - a dual role relationship of child and adult. The childlike thinking doesn't feel bound by rules - maybe isn't aware of them, or ignores conventions - and just wanders off, exploring, playing, having fun...Then at some point the adult-like thinking kicks in - with the discipline to work out details and specifics, drawing on past experiences, etc. to actually make the dream come true....Utilizing both creative and critical thinking.

Welcome to GSC, JCHEV !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a fun place to hang out! Thanks, DMiller for the Bela Fleck/Vic Wooten clip. I've got two CDs of the Flecktones and love the bass player - but watching the clip I was flabbergasted watching his technique! I use my middle and forefinger mostly on my picking hand - which I thought Vic did. But he was using a lot of thumb and fingers in a strumming/slapping fashion. I kept watching/listening in almost disbelief - thinking how can he sound so clean and accurate playing like that? Amazing.

Thanks Lindy Hopper, maybe now I understand a little better from this and your post # 1 that you're sort of exploring some aspects/relationships of the Devil, free will, evil, and God…Boy, I've gotten in WAY OVER my head on this thread – but this is a fun thread to follow – don't think I've got anything of substance to contribute but I'll throw in my two cents worth of speculation. I think you've got something there in saying God had to create the potential for evil. We're used to options and choices in this life – where to live, what to buy, what to do for work, etc. – I wonder what it was like in the distant past? Did God say "Here's the current eon's work roster: Lucifer's crew is on new dimensions maintenance, Gabriel's crew – technical documentation…and anyone not wishing to participate in my work program – you can go to …. to …… to …..hmmmmmmm – hang on a sec I'll think of somewhere." How ever this freewill was exercised I don't know but that the Devil and the other fallen angels did choose to rebel against God seems suggested by passages like I Timothy 3:6 "And not a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil." And Jude 6 "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day." Another thing Jude 6 brings up that's puzzling to me – the nature of angels. Was there something irreversible in their choice – that fixed their destiny – I know it's like comparing apples to oranges but I was thinking it may be similar to humans in Hebrews 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" – so once they made their final choice – was it like there's no going back and starting over? [is there something in the nature of immortality that sealed their fate - like in Genesis 3:22 man kept from eating from the tree of life - would that somehow set him forever in an unredeemable state?] I tend to think redemption is not available for fallen angels – looking at Matthew 8:29 "And behold, they cried out, saying, 'What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?'" – I get the idea the demons knew of their impending doom. Jesus' sacrificial death is portrayed as a means of salvation to mortals but as a means of disarmament to fallen angels, Colossians 2: 14,15 "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through it."

You know, Sprawled Out - I was wondering the same thing after reading that CFF thread. Good idea for a thread discussion - but I don't having anything to contribute just yet...Maybe it's something addressed in psychology or behavioral sciences. The other night I even Googled "Degradation in religious movements" but got kinda lost on checking out stuff. Just off the top of my head - I'm thinking along the lines of what Rascal shared - it's about the splinter group trying to maintain control of what they started - maybe afraid their thing will go the way of its predecessor [fail] unless they take action.

You're welcome, Sprawled Out – and I would like to understand exactly what your objections are – and perhaps reiterate my point. I'm not looking to argue about anything but just want to get a better idea of your viewpoint…What are your rational objections to what's been discussed? Again, I'm not wanting to dispute your viewpoint – I'm just curious as to what you're looking for or expect to find. I got the impression from your first post you're wanting to understand the Devil's story – and in this post expressing annoyance over my take on the data in the Gospels and that the Bible isn't clear on this stuff. What specifically are your rational objections? Is it you believe there is a Devil but object to the data on him in the Bible or the way it's presented in the Bible, or perhaps the whole Bible is nonsense to you? I beg to differ on your assessment of my post [boy, that sounds funny – "I disagree with your viewpoint of my viewpoint" ]. I stated the Gospels had the greatest concentration of references to the Devil – something that is gathered by merely reading them. Saying why that was so – was obviously my opinion [saying "From my Christian perspective"] – I didn't mean to imply I had 20/20 Biblical hindsight or that it is a truth only the initiated can understand. In everyone's viewpoint there are assumptions. An assumption of mine is that the Biblical data is true – I certainly don't understand it all – and some biblical topics are in a state of flux in my head – an on-going process of me thinking/praying/discussing with others - evolving if you will. It would be great if you would articulate some of your assumptions on this topic.

Fascinating thread, Dooj – I’m always intrigued about how our minds work. Interesting to consider this left/right brain stuff in matters of faith. Like Belle I think I was more of a “right brain” person before getting in TWI. In light of this topic I think I’ve been slowly migrating back to my old territory – or I don’t know if that’s even a good way to describe it – perhaps I’m trying to integrate the two. For example – when it comes to Bible study I look at what is written, I take in the ideas, symbols, thoughts of the language, observe what is obvious and simple, maybe spend only a certain amount of time on it - then throughout the day think about it, how does it tie into the rest of Scripture, how do I feel about it, does it seem to fit with the attributes of God or His plan or what I know of spiritual things . The formulas and simple, fast answers of TWI were appealing. But after I left the “law of believing” was one of the first things I found suspect as my right brain processes were coming back online. I think it was even intuition that helped me penetrate through TWI’s bs. I just knew the idea of reducing God Almighty to a genie-in-a-bottle-servant-at-my-beck-and-call, or that I could manipulate reality with God-like powers was way out of line for a mere mortal. Certainly, the more complex thinking and analysis I applied to TWI doctrines and practices the more I found wrong. And then - - as I learned of their moral depravity – and my emotions engaged – you know, how I feel about their behavior, about the victims - - – I see why TWI doesn’t want a bunch of right brain people around.

Sprawled Out, I'm with you on the Devil topic scattered all over the place – it's like that on a lot of topics. It would be a whole lot easier if everything was organized by category or strict chronological order with some nifty God-breathed flow-charts and diagrams like a textbook or technical manual…Now I'm just thinking out loud here – not trying to explain or defend anything – just taking the Bible at face value. When you wondered why the Devil's story – seeing how it's one of the most crucial stories is veiled – I thought yeah that's true but there's also another crucial story veiled in the Old Testament – the details of how God was going to redeem man. From my Christian perspective major aspects of both crucial stories are unveiled in the Gospels. In the Gospels we find literal fulfillment of prophecies scattered throughout the Old Testament that mention some little detail about the Messiah – where He would be born, things He would do, what He would suffer, etc. And in the Gospels you also have the greatest concentration of references to the Devil and his crew. Many of these references to the Devil are made by Jesus Himself or the Gospel writer in showing Jesus dealing directly with the Devil [as in Matthew 4 the temptation of Jesus Christ]. My impression is – as the details of God's plan literally unfolded before people's eyes [the Gospel period] – one aspect of His plan was to expose the Devil's covert operation. It is challenging to try to put together the various topics of the Bible – that's what systematic theology tries to do. A good analogy I read in an Alister McGrath book likened systematic theology to botanists going into the field, picking lots of samples, then back at their Greenhouse grouping together the plants that THEY THINK should be together. Like your references to the other names for the Devil or passages in the Old Testament that may allude to him. Some may or may not fit. I don't know. The Gospels may not tell the whole story about the Devil – but I think they address the most crucial aspects of him – that he is a real creature that opposes God – and part of God's plan is the disruption and eventual destruction of the devil's kingdom by Jesus Christ.

Great posts Excathedra and Krysilis - both these posts were real zingers to me – I've been thinking about them for awhile. It's funny how seemingly simple they are – a lot of times that's all it takes to jump-start my sluggish processor. …Thinking about charity begins at home – I recall my TWI years – how I could be infinitely patient and understanding with someone I was trying to get interested in PFAL – but often having very little in reserve for my own family at home. …Giving our love away. That's a deep one to think about! I think it was in Life is Tremendous Charlie Jones says that giving to get is not giving it's trading. I think we're all familiar with the counterfeit kind of love. If I'm giving my "love" to get something in return – I'm not giving it away – I'm trading. It's like an alternate version of the "law of believing" – an attempt to manipulate someone. And like the "law of believing" this counterfeit love is self-centered – it seeks its own good – the impetus being "I'll be nice to them – to get them to do what I want." Opposite the love Jesus talked about in Matthew 5:43-48 – where He said love your enemies – look at how God has the rain fall on the just and the unjust – saying we're to be like that in giving our love away rather than loving those who love us back. True love is meant to be given away – no strings attached.

According to your own stipulation noted above in bold red the following posts lack your signature and are actually by your mentor ck : Greg, thanks for cluing us in on how to differentiate between mentor and Son of mentor. The type of person that comes across these posts sounds sort of uncharitable. Good thing you didn't sign your name to them! PS: You could always shop around for a new mentor. Maybe even find someone who doesn't practice intellectual hobbling by telling you bs like "you can't go beyond what you're taught."...Better yet - try exercising your own intellectual muscles...you know - think for yourself - engage in discussions with people on open forums expressing YOUR OWN THOUGHTS. Instead of turning a deaf ear to people who don't understand what you share - exemplified in the above posts of your impatient mentor - try practicing some of that love of God you talked about in your posts - maybe explain your point a little differently, maybe stop trying to muster up more arguments - sit back and listen - consider someone else's point. There was some great stuff shared on this thread by other folks - in between the fighting. I know sometimes I can be as narrow-minded as anyone else and think sometimes in starting a thread on GSC we may fall back into the old TWI-I'm gonna-drive-my-point-home-no-matter-what mode. In my humble opinion that TWI type of thinking is really more about fear of the unknown and of feeling comfortable with what leadership or mentors have handed down to us... ...I think a good thread has a lot of give and take happening - and that's give and take of ideas - not insults [i'll be the first to admit I've given my fair share of insults! Sorry about that - don't take it personal - it's just that when someone appears to me like they're trying to shove something down my throat my defense mechanisms are activated]. We all stand to learn and grow when we come to a discussion with an idea to share and a willingness to explore its possibilities.You'll probably surpass your current mentor in no time....well...it's just a thought... :)

...Okay, Rum - but - - let me say this up front - Tonto and I are NOT going out W.O.W. again!....Well - at least not out of state - and y'all better throw in some of those cool green Glow Sticks or the deal is off!

Good point, George - I'll dig out my old 2 man pup tent we used at the Rock.

Cool thread, Vickles! I guess VPW's life and ministry serve as a warning of how bad things may get when mental illness is left untreated and sinful behavior is left unchecked.

I tend to think VPW had a negative impact on Christianity – because his teachings took the focus off Jesus Christ…um…"Christ" is a NECESSARY part of Christianity…After reading that Time Magazine article – two things came to mind: 1. Remembering how VPW exalted the Church Epistles way above the Old Testament and especially the Gospels. 2. The words of Jesus Christ in Luke 6:46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" …And really - - to do the things our Lord said – I think it would be helpful to read the Gospels – wow, there's lots of stuff He said in there!

GreasyTech, I didn't find anything with your link on the first post - but the one of the Telemarketer Nightmare is a hoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Bliss – that stuff makes me sick too. Typical cover-up drivel. After being gone so long from that foggy atmosphere – it's amazing how their typical loaded jargon stands out in such stark nakedness to me now – as in this portion of the letter you posted: What I shared on the Buzzwords thread goes along with your post: A great diversionary tactic was TWI leadership stating "the integrity of the Word is at stake" when followers started murmuring against leadership or questioning something they did [and I'm not talking about leadership's decision on what class to run or organizing a witnessing blitz - but people murmuring or questioning over an ethical issue]. This came out of the mouths of even well-meaning believers. After Geer's Patriarch, I had many passionate dialogs with corps buddies via letters and phone calls. Many dialogs went no where because every time I would address specific issues, questionable doctrines and practices their response was typically along the lines of "you're deceived – the integrity of the Word is at stake." For me personally – the words in the above letter have no impact – they're action words of FLUFF! The integrity of THEIR words has always been at stake – and in my humble opinion because TWI leadership never addresses specific issues, questionable doctrines and practices brought up by the few, the bold, and the brave – they have not earned the respectful ear of anyone!

Wow, Socks - that Caress tune is way cool!!!!!!!!!! That Sustainer effect gives the guitar that live-feedback sound. Ala - great pictures - you're a pro!!!!!!!!!! Chatty and Top thanks for the scan/post engineering department. Man oh man!!!! GSC is chock full of talent!!!!!!!!!

Smokey, thanks for the update on Dana - and congrats on your promotion. You both are in my thoughts and prayers!!!!!!!!!! My Dad was a medic in WW2 and recalling his experiences he shared with me many times - I am thankful and pray for your awesome heart of service to God and your fellowman!

Excellent point, Socks! And I like TempleLady's pointing out TWI's intent of getting their hands on the money you would send to a creditor...Interesting article - I read about the guy in our local paper. The loan process was a community effort. They would talk to several people who knew the loan applicant and if they thought it would work. Like Krysilis and Pond said - integrity is a big part of the deal! What a great and simple idea that is helping the people of Bangladesh.