T-Bone

Don’t fret Mike – rather than you being the topic of discussion, I like to think your posts are a good springboard for me to engage the folks at The Way International…My posts are not an investigation of you – like I’m examining a crime or problem or trying to solve some mystery. You’re much too inflationary about your ego. But your dodge, distract, and derailer tactics make great target practice for the Socratic method as well as highlight what a worst case scenario of a wierwille infused mindset might look like – in that regard you are very useful as a poster child for the most unpleasant and serious thing that could happen to a PFAL grad. Normally I don’t like to motivate others by fear – but some TWI-followers are a hard-sell - so I don’t want to silence you or bury you – I want to show you off – and thanks for your help demonstrating the risks of following a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leader like victor paul wierwille. In case you haven’t noticed the change in my tact – I usually end a post with a ‘secret altar call’ – by summoning any folks at The Way International to make a new spiritual commitment to Jesus Christ in whatever way the Holy Spirit moves them…Grease Spot Café doesn’t have to know…The Way International doesn’t have to know…shingles doesn’t care… My hope is that folks will check out the threads we recommend …and books we recommend - like Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…But it doesn’t matter…what’s really important is that in the mix-up Mike may have inadvertently revealed his motivation…the multi-quotes above are in sequential order – and I will make a few comments about each one to show Grease Spotters how I got to this discovery…My persistence in doing stuff like this is for the benefit of those still in The Way International…I don’t think Mike’s habit of denial is representative of many folks in TWI. At least I hope not – it probably becomes more prevalent the longer folks stay involved with a cult that encourages cognitive distortions . Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxiety from: Denial | Psychology Today . See also: Denial (Freud) - Wikipedia 50 Common Cognitive Distortions | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ The road to discovery starts here( numbers in red correspond to above quoted posts) 1.Before I quote my post of January 25, 2023 at 1:25 AM, I want to give you some sense of what drove me to start questioning everything about wierwille. My cognitive skills were reawakened in the aftermath of Chris G reading the Passing of the Patriarch (which, I guess, was supposed to be something like wierwille’s last will and testament to the way corps ) one night while I was in residence…It was like so many red flags that were heavily blanketed by the dust of denial were suddenly uncovered by tornadic storms of long forgotten doubts, questions and bad personal experiences in TWI…I began an intense review and reevaluation of wierwille’s teachings – in PFAL and beyond! I even looked into his credentials and things he claimed he accomplished – like “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses” . That is why In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? … T-Bone quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. On January 25th 2023 9:16 AM Mike quotes this portion of my post “Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?” T-Bone quote And then Mike says this: That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..." I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar. In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others. The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind. My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL. I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.”…Mike quote Unless you are familiar with Mike’s unsolicited ‘tenure’ of 20 years at Grease Spot Café – you probably won’t see how laughable Mike’s hypocrisy is – as revealed in this typical response above. Mike has adopted wierwille’s position on a lot of stuff related to the Bible – but at this stage of his game Mike has mutated so much of wierwille’s doctrine that I bet wierwille himself probably wouldn’t recognize it…To be clear – Mike has NOT built his faith on the Bible – rather he has complete confidence in what wierwille said about the Bible…and it’s usually after I open up and make myself vulnerable – that Mike likes to brag about his 'retroactive cognitive skills' to show how he was smarter than me and was not duped like I was – Mike said In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible Mike quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 3.On January 25th 2023 8:04 PM Mike said this in responding to OldSkool: Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so? In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….Mike quote This one really threw me. Why did Mike say you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people to OldSkool? I was the one who said I had an ominous feeling…dread...that I would I find I had based my confidence on the lies of a false teacher…Perhaps Mike got mixed up in his responses. ~ ~ ~ ~ What have we learned here? I believe Mike’s habit of denial, obfuscating the evidence, ignoring doctrinal issues are some of the main reasons why folks are still trapped in The Way International. A lot of Mike’s shtick is a caricature of the cult-mindset fostered in TWI. What it does is it gets people to disengage their cognitive skills. ~ ~ ~ ~ To all those still involved in The Way International and any of its offshoots, as a believer in our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I beg you in His name to check out threads that expose TWI for what it is – a whitewashed mausoleum of a dead cult-leader. Check out this list of dubious doctrines taught in the 1967 PFAL class – that I made on another thread – and this is by no means complete. My challenge to all was to ask if all these questionable dogmas are still taught in the new PFAL Today. I have yet to get a definitive answer – you can see the list here > at least 28 problematic doctrines in PFAL and check out these other threads: The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? wierwille’s pathological ministry wierwille wanted to control the money The Way: Living in Wonderland The Secret Agenda Society TWI the pseudo-Christian cult TWI servitude Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps The Original Letter Sent to TWI by top leaders leaving ~ ~ ~ ~ In analyzing wierwille’s dubious phrase the Word takes the place of the Absent Christ, I’ve thought about John 5:39 a few times: Amplified Bible You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me…John 5:39 In a manner of speaking wierwille had me doing something similar. Without realizing it, I believed wierwille’s teaching on the Bible was transparent and was just the same as me reading the Bible for myself. I was not aware I had wierwille’s filter in my thought process. And not only that, I had this vague notion that “The Word” as taught by wierwille was the best and only substitute for a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s all for now, folks

See if any of this fits a description of someone you know and/or something you know about yourself. Here's an article I found on the internet: 10 Traits Of Narrow-Minded People by Malgosia Ruszkowska Narrow Mindedness is part of life and we’ve all experienced it at some point in our life, to a greater or lesser extent. If one has chosen to purposefully limit their perspective of life and the world around them, their choice should be respected, as long as they do not try to impose it on others. It seems science is yet to answer what exactly makes some of us more narrow-minded than others. For the time being, however, we can take a quick look at the top ten defining characteristics of a closed mind. 1. Narrow-minded people tend to be very judgmental. They know it all, and they always have their say about what someone else should do, say, or how they should look like. Typically, those statements are nowhere near objectivity. Judgmental people know best what their friends should be doing with their lives or where their relationships should be going. In some extreme cases, they may even feel obliged to comment on what their neighbor should wear. Their statuses on social media are often criticizing others with no intention to give anyone at least a bit of credit. However, in some cases, their excessive criticism may backfire on them. 2. Must be (always) right. “I told you so” is their favorite line. There is no way you can win an argument with a narrow-minded person, not to mention getting to some form of agreement. They will turn around the facts to support their opinion and will never let you have the last word. Remember this absurd classroom rule that “The teacher is always right” with the following being that if the teacher isn’t right, refer to Rule One? Well, whoever came up with it must not have been very broad-minded. 3. Xeno/Homo/Humano… phobic. Anything that the narrow-minded person does not understand or appears to them even slightly different is perceived as a threat. The list of targets includes, but is not limited to, immigrants, gay people, people with disabilities… The narrow-minded person can be very good at hiding their phobias and not showing their disapproval on the surface, but deep inside they hold a mighty grudge for these social groups. Needless to say, their fears and reservations are seldom justified or reasonable. 4. Stuck in their habits. One of the most defining characteristics of a narrow-minded person is that no matter what happens around them, they remain staunch to their habits. If, for example, a hard-headed person has been having a particularly bad fit of gout, they’d rather complain to high heaven then go and seek medical attention. Similarly, they may spend hours complaining about their job, but they actually have no intention whatsoever to do anything to improve their situation. When driving a car they are always swearing at other drivers, as if the road belonged to them. Their verbal outbursts, however, can sometimes escalate into brutal road rage crimes. 5. Generalizing lots. Statements such as “All foreigners steal jobs”, “Rich people are rich because they exploit the working class”, “All politicians are liars”, “Such and such country is dangerous” and so on, are their everyday slogans. All of the above generalizing catchphrases have been devised with the sole purpose of attracting a bunch of narrow-minded hardliners, frozen in their own stereotypes of the past. These are often repeated slogans they’ve heard from others or read in tabloids and have never bothered to cross check or verify. Their favorite words are: “always”, “never”, “everybody”, “all”, etc, and these are mostly used to heap reproaches or throw accusations at someone. Generalization is a very common communication strategy nowadays. The truth is that it hurts not only the people we address these slogans at, but it also backfires on us, because by doing so, we are closing our mind even more. It’s very bad energy – yeah, generally speaking! 6. Getting offended or upset easily. Many things, even the smallest ones, can offend a narrow-minded person. A girl in a bar who wore something they’d never dare; a friend’s friends who didn’t pay them the attention they think they deserve, a taxi driver who didn’t say “Thank you for the tip”, etc. While it is normal to get ....ed of if an annoying situation is happening over and over again, there are days when we just get out of bed on the wrong side and then everything appears to be against us – from our colleagues and our boss to the elements outside. You are just a human being and it would be very narrow-minded of you to think that you’re not allowed to moan from time to time! 7. They’re dishonest and have trust issues. These two usually go hand in hand. Obviously, I am not talking about situations when you don’t trust someone because your gut feeling is telling you not to, neither when your lack of trust is the result of a traumatic experience in the past. In the circumstances described above, it’s absolutely understandable and OK to have certain reservations to people you meet for the first time. However, if you don’t trust anyone by default, perhaps it’s time to think things over. Some people are worth your trust and may feel offended if you keep them at bay. 8. Giving up on people too easily. Narrow-minded people tend to part ways with their friends more easily than they can make new ones. And this is not because these people have done something terrible, but because they were not as perfect as their narrow-minded friend expected them to be. They did well in pretty much everything; they were kind, respectful to you and funny, but they did that one single thing which overshadowed your whole relationship with that person. Here, we may argue that your reaction is a matter of maturity and perhaps that’s the case at times. Nonetheless, when you’re a grown up and still choose to focus on the negative things instead of the positive ones, you should reconsider your philosophy of life. 9. Live by their stereotypes. They will listen to only one type of music, eat only food from their country even when they travel abroad, see only people within their social circle, etc. On the one hand, there is nothing wrong with preferring one thing over another as long as you’re happy. On the other hand, you’re the one who may miss out on different life opportunities. Narrow-mindedness is when you do that one thing and impose your preferences on those around you. 10. Having an agenda. They call their friends only when they need something or they feel lonely because their partner is away. Otherwise, you don’t hear from them. They want you in their life only because you got something they want to make use of, or because hanging out with you will make them feel better about themselves. The above are only some of the most typical characteristics of a narrow-minded character. In a way, we all are narrow-minded to a greater or lesser extent. Coming from a very judgmental society, it took me years to overcome my prejudices and learn not to get upset whenever I see people doing things in the way I’d never do. I still struggle at times. Nonetheless, it’s still worth the effort, because the more open-minded you become the better you feel about yourself. And here is a small definition to nail it. Narrow-minded people seldom think independently. Instead, they prefer to repeat what they’ve heard. Open-minded people, on the other hand, prefer to use their best judgment before they decide to follow a particular trend or choose a role model. From: 10 Traits Of Narrow-Minded People (iheartintelligence.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ When I read the above article – three things came to mind. 1. The list is spot on for describing harmful and controlling cult-leaders. 2. These characteristics also defined me when I was involved in a harmful and controlling cult for 12 years. 3. Living post-cult I am endeavoring to leave any detrimental mental habits further and further behind me.

there’s no rule stating you can’t understand a passage more than one way. Most scholars date the book of Revelation at about 95 AD ( see Dating the Bible - Wikipedia ) So I can’t imagine why God would have inspired John to write a book that was only relevant…applicable thousands of years later…If I’m not mistaken Revelation is the only book in the Bible that carries the equivalent of a formal invocation of God’s blessedness, Revelation 1:3: New Living Translation God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near. ~ ~ ~ ~ Some other things to think about: The predictive element in Scripture is multifaceted. Sometimes prophets foretold an event that had both an immediate and long-range application. See Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia , Three Applications of Scripture — LFF (lffellowship.com) . For a communication from God to be ‘on message’, logic would dictate that God’s words would not contradict His nature, His methods and what He has already said elsewhere. However, the message might have several significant points or central themes – especially ones that have social, political, moral, or theological significance – which gets into double meanings, multiple meanings and deeper meanings. See Do Bible verses have multiple meanings? (knowing-jesus.com) , Does a Bible verse carry more than one meaning? | Christian Forums , and Inductive Bible Study: Interpretation | Precept Austin ~ ~ ~ ~ If you’ve read through all the hyperlinks I gave you will realize there’s not 100 % agreement on the interpretive process. I believe that’s a good thing. If everyone thinks alike, it might mean no one is truly thinking (notice my sentence fudges on what it means to think – I meant that ) The Socratic is a group effort.

Reading a section of The Sociopath Next Door got me thinking about some of the issues mentioned on this thread. I tend to look at people in mostly general accepting terms since we’re all human and in many ways we may develop unique and individual beliefs, values, habits, behaviors but in similar processes. In my quest for answers, therapies and perhaps some closure post-cult involvement, how someone can act in an unconscionable way continues to elude me. It is something I cannot relate to – I have no experiential context that might explain it. I manage to analyze stuff by either breaking it down to nuts and bolts, its essential elements and the function or purpose that it appears to be intended for. My fuzzy two-bit psychological theory is that the main function of the conscience is a type of limit switch sensor. In electrical engineering, a limit switch sensor is operated by the motion of a machine part or the presence of an object – for controlling a system or as a safety interlock. You walk up to an exit or entrance of a store and the door magically opens. You press the button to close the overhead garage door and midway down it abruptly stops because the dog just ran into the garage from the outside. These preset limits determine what may or may not pass – focusing or restricting performance. For want of a better analogy I think that’s the way the conscience works – and along with another elusive ‘gizmo’, intuition (whatever that is ) – internal stuff I’ve learned to pay more attention to…anyway…here’s some excerpts from The Sociopath Next Door: begin excerpt “…As a therapist, I specialize in the treatment of psychological trauma survivors. Over the last twenty-five years, my practice has included hundreds of adults who have been in psychological pain every day of their lives on account of early childhood abuse or some other horrendous past experience. As I have detailed in case studies in The Myth of Sanity, my trauma patients suffer from a host of torments, including chronic anxiety, incapacitating depression, and dissociative mental states, and, feeling that their time on earth was unbearable, many of them have come to me after recovering from attempts to commit suicide. Some have been traumatized by natural and man-made disasters such as earthquakes and wars, but most of them have been controlled and psychologically shattered by individual human perpetrators, often sociopaths – sometimes sociopathic strangers, but more typically sociopathic parents, older relatives, or siblings… …About one in twenty-five individuals are sociopathic, meaning, essentially, that they do not have a conscience. It is not that this group fails to grasp the difference between good and bad; it is that the distinction fails to limit their behavior. The intellectual difference between right and wrong does not bring on the emotional sirens and flashing blue lights, or the fear of God, that it does for the rest of us. Without the slightest blip of guilt or remorse, one in twenty-five people can do anything at all.” From pages 8ff of The Sociopath Next Door Kindle Edition by Martha Stout Ph.D. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ About the Author Martha Stout, Ph.D., a clinical psychologist in private practice, served on the faculty in psychology in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School for twenty-five years. She is also the author of "The Myth of Sanity" and "The Paranoia Switch." She lives on Cape Ann in Massachusetts.

That’s it! Stretched-Armstrong Coffee The coffee that goes the extra session

David Jeremiah’s timeline is common among most evangelicals – and I favor that myself – I hope I’ll be in the pre-trib rapture group – and it makes a lot of sense in the Pauline letters. I’ve got a hard time reconciling it to John’s Apocalypse – especially the messages to the 7 churches – there’s a sense of urgency - preparing them for what’s ahead – why would that be necessary if they’re taken out of the world in rapture? David Jeremiah has stated that the way things are escalating means we are getting closer to the end-times – but there’s various ways to slice and dice what compromises the end-times. I like to study the book of Revelation, but I have no dog in the fight because I’m not sure how I fit in. So I figure whatever happens – happens. Jesus Christ is my Lord and He’s running the show – so I’m not going to worry a whole lot about stuff I don’t know.

In the context of real-world events over the last few years – I would probably encourage them to seek the help of mental health professionals. There have been people in the news who acted out on misinformation, disinformation or delusions. For example: QAnon follower sentenced to nearly 8 years in prison for standoff near Hoover Dam. Matthew Wright, in an interview with a psychologist hired by his defense attorney, said his June 2018 action was an attempt to gain publicity for a pair of causes, both of which are rooted in conspiratorial thinking. Wright thought the public was being deceived about what motivated the 2017 mass shooting in Las Vegas. He also thought that President Donald Trump wasn’t acting swiftly enough to reveal purported crimes being committed by longtime political leaders, a belief rooted in the wide-ranging QAnon conspiracy theory. Adherents believe an anonymous person with Q-level security clearance has been posting cryptic clues on relatively obscure websites about the real goings-on behind the scenes in Washington, D.C. According to this baseless theory, Trump has been investigating high-level corruption among longtime political leaders. Some of those crimes, followers falsely believe, involved child sex trafficking and actual consumption of infant blood. From: QAnon follower Matthew Wright sentenced in Hoover Dam bridge standoff (azcentral.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ One-quarter of mass attackers driven by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies, Following the latest string of mass shootings in the U.S., the Secret Secret Service report says the report details 173 attacks that hurt three or more people in public spaces, including churches and schools, from 2016 to 2020. In an article by Julia Ainsley Jan. 25, 2023 – it goes on to say Among the findings: Although a personal grievance of some sort was the single most common motive, one-quarter of the attackers studied from 2016 to 2020 were motivated by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies. At a press conference on Wednesday, Lina Alathari, the chief of the Secret Service’s National Threat Assessment Center, said, "About a quarter, they maintained some kind of conspiracy theory beliefs, so they believed, for example, that 9/11 and the moon landing never happened, that the U.N. was sending an armed force to come take away everyone’s guns." From: One-quarter of mass attackers driven by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies, Secret Service report says (nbcnews.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ Spoken words and communicated ideas have consequences. Maybe the person on the soapbox has no ill will – but it’s difficult to predict the effect those words and ideas will have on others or even that one person who grossly misunderstands the message.

In an alternate universe the inhabitants are devourer of worlds In that beginning there was a nesting planet And let there be a few layers to separate the chewy caramel center from the rest of the dirt and stuff And so, a world was created that would melt in your mouth and not in your hand There’s a little bit of continent or ocean in every bite Whether in the wrapper or out of the wrapper I know not Sweet-toothing just got easier You can’t spell candy without the word ‘candy’

Hi Mike, As far as you know = the extent that your knowledge reaches = 20 years on Grease Spot Café of you reaching no further than your confirmation bias. You consistently exhibit a tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports the high regard you have for wierwille and PFAL…Confirmation bias cannot be eliminated, but it can be managed, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills. If you are not aware that your posts reflect someone who has no capacity to distinguish truth from lies or differentiate fact from fiction – perhaps you should seek a communication consultant - - or help from professional mental health personnel. If you are not conscious that you often turn a blind eye to the infamous moral depravity of wierwille – perhaps it means your conscience has been cauterized by the hypocritical and callous nature of wierwille / PFAL. Maybe be honest during self-examination – something we should all do periodically in the way of Matthew 7 In the 17 years that I have been coming to Grease Spot Café and getting to know your ‘mystifying’ and shape-shifting viewpoint, I suspect there’s more issues than meets the eye – I’m just not sure what they are. The only reason I make the time and effort to respond to your nonsense is for the sake of those still in bondage to the pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult, The Way International. Any reasonable person comparing the thought content of your posts and most other Grease Spotters is more likely to come away with the thought that you are utterly confused – exemplifying how detrimental to one’s cognitive skills wierwille / PFAL can be if that is one’s only rule for faith and practice. There is no denying you have some deeply entrenched attitudes that encourage others to accept wierwille and PFAL without serious questions. The purpose of this website demands a rational response to such nonsense. You can make all the claims you want about a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming divine dictation….you have encountered several here over the years – but it means nothing from a person who has zero credibility! How trustworthy is a person if they are incapable of recognizing the difference of truth from lies, fact from fiction? What does it say about one’s moral compass if they make wierwille’s corruption and hypocrisy like it’s no big deal? ~ ~ ~ ~ The honest counterpoint to your Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses, is that wierwille searched…hunted…found what seemed to be attractive money-making ideas in the works of others – and pirated them! He made like he came up with all that stuff – with God’s guidance of course! That’s stealing and lying! You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Exodus 20 Sorry to burst your bubble – you so quickly come to the defense of all the lies, illogic, moral depravity, and hypocrisy of wierwille / PFAL... ...you reveal to others what you are unaware of – that you have indeed built your faith on wierwille / PFAL. We defend to the hilt whatever is most precious to us.

I think this is Mike’s exaggeration and misrepresentation of what Grease Spotters think. As far as I know, no one here has ever said wierwille claimed he got lots of divine dictation from God. What wierwille did was deliberately mislead a lot of people by claiming God was routinely teaching him ! Mike said to read WordWolf’s transcript thread which “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could.” Which I read - here > September 20th, 2022, 1:50 PM WordWolf posted partial transcript of SNT 124 I like to go the extra mile to give a person the benefit of a doubt - so I used the hyperlink WordWolf cited for the source. And so, the following is only some excerpts from Mike’s ‘transcript’ - and I used a red font some places where wierwille states God was speaking to him, giving him revelation, routinely teaching him…overall implying he had God at his beck and call as a consultant…advisor…a specialist … a mentor...a teacher... …anyway…here is the excerpt from what Mike posted on December 25th, 2017, 12:40 AM: …And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word. And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it. And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends. It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place. Isn't that something? And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big. These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it. Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in. But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven. Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this. And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it. Excerpt from: Mike’s post on the thread “The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write the Book?” ~ ~ ~ ~ There is quite a difference between taking dictation and being taught. With dictation one person who is "dictating" speaks and another who is "taking dictation" writes down the words as they are spoken. The person taking dictation doesn’t have to understand all that is said – but should at least have all the words spoken and in the same order as when it was given. From wierwille’s own words I know he wasn’t claiming he took dictation from God. With teaching there are principles and methods used by teachers to enable student learning. These strategies are determined partly on subject matter to be taught and partly by the nature of the learner. From wierwille’s own words it is evident he was claiming to be taught by God directly. ~ ~ ~ ~ In order to get the bigger picture of wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and delusion of grandeur check this out from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences: “I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.* And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.” And on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” ~ ~ ~ ~ As far as Mike’s statement – that the transcript “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could…” I think Mike is deluded. I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, E.W. Kenyon and B.G. Leonard it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist – and in the final analysis also an incompetent teacher who also bastardized the works of others to serve his depraved agenda. It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research and God’s ‘tutelage’ made it accurate in the process. Christians, Bible students, beware of the con ! The subtle implication of wierwille’s claims shift the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context and onto wierwille’s ‘assumed authority’. Considering wierwille’s claim that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century – it is worth noting that Christians back in that apostolic age had no Bible – the New Testament had not been written yet. Just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help, then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifying or “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s doctrine…PFAL…The Word that wierwille taught should be error-free and faultless in every way…look through the various topics on Grease Spot Café – in the forums of About the Way and Doctrinal you’ll find thoughtful analysis of wierwille’s doctrines and the policies and practices of The Way International. Any folks still in TWI – you owe it to yourself – you owe it to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – you are not your own – you were bought with a price - Jesus Christ’s sacrifice…so for the sake of your own soul explore Grease Spot Café. ~ ~ ~ ~ *I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses. A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything…That makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good …how many PFAL grads have done that with wierwille’s works? In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows: June 29, 1987 To whom it may concern, This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years. Sincerely, Vivian Ruby Registrar’s Office Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? You can see the actual letter from the Moody Bible Institute if you click here Would you really trust an unabashed plagiarist? Would you believe someone who routinely lied about their accomplishments? That’s all for now, folks

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Gnosticism reinvented once again…nothing new under the Sun…wierwille prayed to himself and received the answer from within the snowstorm of self-centeredness…A malignant narcissistic evil - a Kirby Vacuum that sucked the Bejesus out of others and yet the vacuum bag was never full…The greatest secret in the world of The Way International is replacing Christ with the words of plagiarizing-thieving-delusional-pathological liar-morally depraved-egomaniac-abusive-wierwille. Meanwhile there are offshoots and cyber-trolls offering similar services to replace Christ and divulge the ever-changing hidden meaning of the Bible. Will the Hula Hoop be unbroken? Probably not. What goes around comes around. Will COVID ever go away? Shingles doesn’t care….Aren’t you glad you used Dial? Don’t you wish every body did? That logical train of thought on threads. You’ve tried wailing on them. You’ve tried sailing on them (holy determinism be praised!). And even after the second wave of returning to the crapper with another bowel movement has already started, you’ve failed on them. Try gnew and reprised Dope-On-A-Rope. If that doesn’t derail the thread, then nothing will/would/has/have or had / won’t - unless Jupiter is aligned with needs and wants. ~ ~ ~ ~ And from other snooze: zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz Answer to last week’s secret disorder ring: drink more PFAL-Kool-Aid Last week’s Pendant answer: yes/no “Without distinction” will be removed from ALL PFAL collaterals without exception! Christ in you is out - wierwille incognito is in! If you think $100 is a lot to pay for PFAL - Scientology charges $650 and up for required courses. This kind of renewed mind spirit only comes out by much prayer and Ritalin. There’s more than one way to fleece sheep. There once was a standup comic Who thought PFAL was colonic But what went in stayed in and much to his chagrin PFAL was just a feel-good tonic 4 crucified was made up by a double-crosser The rest of this nonsense is being held in abeyance at Gate M&A unclaimed luggage

I grew up in a Christian home with a loving family. I have believed in the existence of God ever since I can remember. This is one of my core beliefs. Along with that another core belief was always have faith in the Bible as the very Word of God. Life happens and sometimes we are challenged to reexamine our ‘philosophy’…our worldview. Raised in Roman Catholicism, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., astral projection, joined a cult with a fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism basis – and after 12 years of involvement with The Way International – overwhelmed with frustration…disappointment…disenchantment I again reevaluated my core values – they’re ‘fuzzier’ …not so clearly defined – not wierwille’s little God-in-a-box nor his catechism of the Bible. The book of Revelation has often been interpreted various ways throughout the church’s history – four of the most notable are: futuristic, preterist view, ideal/allegorically, and a broad view of history - see Book of Revelation - Wikipedia. Did the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century believers ever wonder when their hope would be realized? What if it’s another thousand years from now? I’d rather not lock myself into the way I think things should happen and when - because that has screwed me up before.

Reminds me of something my Mom said two wrongs don't make a right

This post is all over the place – excuse the mess – enjoy my stream of consciousness. Your post is relatable to me – it’s refreshing and healing to read about someone baring their soul. I don’t mean to project my beliefs / feelings onto anyone else – because I often think of myself as damaged goods – in terms of my beliefs and cognitive skills post-TWI - as a cult survivor…So I appreciate your being honest and open. Most of my work career I’ve been involved in various aspects of safety and security. Thinking what’s the worst case scenario for a living tends to build habits of preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake…last night I heard there have been 33 mass shootings in the US for 2023 – that’s 1.06 mass shootings per day! I can only do so much. Our family is trying to adjust to the new normal. I get these morbid thoughts when I hear of a child or a teen being killed, murdered, in a tragic accident. I imagine if that was me dead at 16 – then some 54 years of my experiences, relationships, trials and errors, successes and failures never happened. Every so often my wife or I will see the other off on an errand – we always remind each other to be cautious and watch out – and along with that we may tack on a pensive farewell like it might be the last time we see each other. I can only imagine what the people of Ukraine have to deal with. ~ ~ ~ ~ Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. ( Matthew 24 ) And stuff seems like it’s getting worse…I remember the fears and worries in the aftermath of 9/11/2001. My wife and I were on vacation in California – the kids were home in Texas. I freaked out and had some fuzzy notion that the tribulation had started – and regretting I never studied the book of Revelation…or if that isn’t it…it’s the end of the world as I know it… All my wife and I were concerned about was getting home to be with the kids. Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Luke 13 Some of the things Jesus said are enigmatic – like this…The best I can figure out on these verses – and I could be way off – two ideas seem apparent: 1.Instead of looking where and to whom one should assign blame for a catastrophe, think about the day of judgement. 2.To me this also challenges the twisted moral superiority I used to hold onto while in TWI. As a general rule of thumb, I used to look down on anyone who suffered from misfortune or great catastrophe or tragedy – cuz they didn’t believe in God…or they weren’t standing on the rightly-divided Word and various other snobbish notions I had entertained…In my opinion the TWI-mindset has a way of making one unusually callous…insensitive to the needs of others. ~ ~ ~ ~ TWI had a sneaky way of using the hope to mislead, abuse and exploit others – it was either the carrot or the stick – reward and punishment: 1. wierwille taught being saved means you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going. This supports an unrestrained lifestyle. You can do whatever you want. Amplified Bible on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus…Romans 2:16...God will judge our motivations !!!!! nuff said 2.Heavenly rewards are for those who are faithful to The Way International. If you cop out or trip out you won’t get rewarded. 3. Encourages mooching. I remember this one branch coordinator who would mooch off everyone – and make like it was no big deal – and why should it be – Jesus Christ could come back at any moment. 4. When LCM became prez it seems like he ramped up the transitory attitude among TWI-followers. I remember in various way corps teachings, LCM’s usual push was – in one form or another – live to serve the ministry…burn yourself out for God…what do you need to own a home for? Our home is in heaven! Why be concerned about hoarding material goods, working toward retirement money, 401Ks? Jesus Christ could come back tomorrow! Quit whining about your need to sleep. You’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven! 5. wierwille’s ultra-dispensationalism turned a blind eye (his glass eye ) to the book of Revelation. It wasn’t until years after I left TWI – that I became interested in the last book of the Bible. Partly due to curiosity, partly due to the way I’m wired - remember what I said above – being worrisome over worst case scenarios, preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake. Not that I figured out much of it – but there is a blessing that’s associated with those who read it and respond in obedience: New International Version Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near…Revelation 1:3 “Time is near” can refer to an epoch, period, or season. The book of Revelation is both prediction and proclamation – foretelling future events and preaching about who God is and what He will do. Thus hope is based on God’s character and promises…I find that in studying Revelation I’m getting to know God better and my trust in Him is strengthened. It’s a good thing to think about others and how we could be of service to them. What if the time of great tribulation happens soon and I’m in the thick of it? I don’t want to freak out – I’d like to help out others if I could.

Yeah – I’ve often thought if God created beings who are male and female, He/She must know something about what all that involves. From what little I remember of science/biology we have a mix of both in us too.

There’s something about a cult-mentality that’s common in some religious and political circles…Steven Hassan the author of Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves and Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults has written another fascinating book about a cult of personality – but since politics is a no-no on Grease Spot Café I’ll leave it up to you to click on this hyperlink, that has been encrypted to protect the indolent > The Cult of Orange-Hole: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the Orange-Hole Uses Mind Control

True – but just think if devil spirits could make scrambled eggs out of the Bible just imagine what they could do to a thread – Threggs Benedict…getting beaten up while off the beaten path beats the hell out of QAnon-like sedition…uhm… that’s if you’re even into that sorta thing… sadomasochistically speaking of course.

Thanks for stopping by, Seth - sounds like a fascinating journey…sorry to hear about your Dad passing…never figured you for a cat-person. Got our daughter a cat 3 years ago and I’ve always been a sucker for cats anyway …so I’m like a cat valet now - I usually clean the litter box, and he lets me know when he wants a door or window open…hope to see you around more!

I was a WOW in DC and I remember wierwille boasting how his WOWs saved our country – this was during TWI’s America Awakes ‘tour’…wierwille was QAnon before it was ‘cool’ and cruel to be conspiratorial. ~ ~ ~ ~ As far as what the ministry of a prophet is today – all I know is info I got from books I own – I’ll share a few tidbits so you can see if the book might interest you – the one’s I’m listing are not that expensive and in my opinion are well worth the cost…and of course there’s a wealth of info online too. The advantage of a biblical dictionary, encyclopedia, commentary, or study Bible – in printed book form or eBook is that they’re usually by one author or a collaborative effort of editors and contributors. The benefit of that is once you ‘vet’ the authors and editors - to examine / evaluate their ‘pedigree’ and theological positions – it’s assumed you already have some idea of academic standards in your head to verify or check their works for accuracy, authenticity, suitability, etc...I think the more one explores legitimate works, one tends to raise the bar for what is acceptable… I don’t agree 100 % with every author because I’ve grown to be my own person – and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself…and besides that Iwon’t be swayed by bull$hit artists like wierwille anymore! Here's a few things about New Testament prophets and my sources: Prophets and apostles were the pillars of the early Church. In the Pauline epistles a prophet called humankind to repentance ( I Cor. 14:24), were not limited to known traditions and doctrines – for they received new revelations about the present and future as well as the past. The prophets were exhorted to examine one anothr’s works to make sure that no false teaching would arise (I Cor. 14:29; I Thess. 5:20 – 22; I John 4:1). From: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: Orr, James, Nuelsen, John L., Mullins, Edgar Young: 9781565630260: Amazon.com: Books But I also have the Kindle version Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) - Kindle edition by Orr, James. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. cost is only $4.99 Here’s a few others I use and highly recommend: Systematic Theology, Second Edition: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine: Grudem, Wayne A.: 9780274840472: Amazon.com: Books Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Belief - Kindle edition by Frame, John M.. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. God Is Love: A Biblical and Systematic Theology: Bray, Gerald: 0884225279263: Amazon.com: Books Amazon.com: Evangelical Dictionary of Theology: 9780801039461: Treier, Daniel J., Elwell, Walter A.: Books (this is newer – I have a 1984 edition) You probably already know this but another good source for less expensive books is used bookstores. I’ve bought and sold a bunch of books at local Half Price Bookstores.

thanks Rocky ! interesting stuff - one quote "The mind is the brain in action"

The farce of wierwille’s biblical research It was October 18th, 2022, at approximately 2:29 PM on another thread that I realized a new proviso was in order, after years of witnessing a certain poster’s attempts to derail a thread by any means possible. I was fed up with my upfront and honest way of trying to communicate being taken advantage of. My frustration usually resulted in me being an a$$-hole in return. To put a stop to this vicious cycle, I adopted a mental provision – a requirement, if you will – that I would not engage a certain poster unless I saw fruit – proof – that the person is ‘repentant’ of their trolling methods and evasive maneuvers. What I have noticed is that the person seems to fake ‘repentance’ – or give some indication they are changing or negotiating with other Grease Spotters to find common ground. That seems like a rope-a-dope strategy – a boxing fighting technique in which one contender leans against the ropes of the boxing ring and draws non-injuring offensive punches, letting the opponent tire themselves out. After biting my lip for a while, I watched a video clip How dirty debaters win against better opponents posted by Rocky on another thread. The close of the video got me to recognize a necessary and critical task of Grease Spotters is to challenge…to confront the lies, hypocrisy, delusions, logical fallacies, and such promulgated by wierwille / PFAL fans… That got me to rethink my ‘proviso’ of not engaging so-and-so unless this or that happens … ...I thought to myself – “hey, there’s no way I’m going to win in an argument with a fool… Instead of being drawn into his idiocy and wasting my energy to dispute his pet theories , delusions, and his reinventing of wierwille/PFAL – when I find an opportune time, I should speak to the point - present something of substance – not to so-and-so – but rather to the general Grease Spot audience – which I know is not only people who left TWI, but also those still in, thinking about leaving, on-the-fence folks, or anyone dissatisfied with the hypocrisy and hype.” ~ ~ ~ ~ On this topic of wierwille and ‘biblical research’ I have much to say - Grease Spot regulars you’ll have to excuse another long post zzzzZZZzzz ZZzzzz but I feel it is necessary to provide others with thought-provoking material. first off, consider what wierwille himself said about examining the actual texts that are still in existence; in the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states: “Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.” ~ ~ ~ ~ Now in sharp contrast to wierwille’s bogus methodology – here’s two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in the New Testament docs, in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by FF Bruce... it says on pages 14 and 15: “The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: ‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “ ~ ~ ~ ~ Bruce’s point is simple – with the increase of hand-copies comes the possibility of scribal errors – but that also means you have that many more “witnesses” as to what was originally said. And another thing to consider is what type of scribal errors occurred. Was a word misspelled, or repeated or transposed, etc. - - these would be easy to spot and corrected by comparing other copies...I have copied and pasted some Wikipedia excerpts on textual criticism and provide a few other sources hyperlinks and books – see below * ~ ~ ~ ~ To the thoughtful readers of Grease Spot, I leave some questions and points to consider: How could wierwille claim he could get back to the authentic prophecy of Scripture when it was first given, if he is only looking at translations and versions instead of the manuscripts written in the original biblical languages? It is doubtful wierwille was even competent to read and understand any of the languages and ancient cultures of the Bible. What standard or criteria did wierwille use to declare or even suggest that the KJV or other translations lack validity and authority in matters of the Christian faith? What specific errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that needed to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors did wierwille/PFAL confront and resolve to make TWI’s unique creed a better version of Christianity? How accurate is wierwille’s ‘theory’ of getting back to the original God-breathed Word if all he did was compare translations /versions …oh and plagiarize the work of others too? If God’s breath gave life to scripture (II Timothy 3:16) and in a way that represents an extension of God himself then doesn’t that make God a liar and thief if one believes that a bundle of plagiarized material (aka Power for Abundant Living and now Power For Abundant Living Today) is anywhere even close to being considered God-breathed, God-inspired, God-authorized, or God’s-addendum to the Bible? ~ ~ ~ ~ Hey, any folks in The Way International - whether you are Way Corps, Ambassadors, Staff, or in other programs, if you are anything like me – you have a tremendous hunger to expand your knowledge of the Word of God and desire to strengthen your relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s probably the main thing that motivated me to go WOW and Way Corps…Perhaps you are a little disappointed or frustrated by the shallow dogmatism, pat answers, overly simplistic and often wierwille-centric ‘curriculum’ of The Way International…Then you owe it to yourself to look into the issues brought up on this thread. If you haven’t read it yet, check out Amazon.com: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International: 9780997874709: Edge, Charlene L, Ruth Mullen, Duane Stapp: Books, some excerpts from Amazon’s description of Penworks’ book: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International™ is Charlene Edge’s riveting memoir about the power of words to seduce, betray, and, in her case, eventually save. After a personal tragedy left her bereft, teenaged Charlene rejected faith and family when recruiters drew her into The Way International, a sect led by the charismatic Victor Paul Wierwille. The Way became one of the largest cults in America. Charlene gave it seventeen years of her life. Believing that God led her to Wierwille, she underwent his intensive two-year training program, The Way Corps, designed to produce loyal leaders… …Eventually Charlene was promoted to the inner circle of biblical researchers, where she discovered devastating secrets: Wierwille twisted texts of Scripture to serve his personal agenda, shamelessly plagiarized the work of others, and misrepresented the purpose of his organization. Worst of all, after Wierwille died in 1985, shocking reports surfaced of his secret sex ring. Amid chaos at The Way’s Ohio-based headquarters, Charlene knew she had to escape—for her own survival and her child’s. Reading like a novel, Undertow is not only a brilliant cautionary tale about misplaced faith but also an exposé of the hazards of fundamentalism and the destructive nature of cults. Through her personal story, Charlene Edge shows how a vulnerable person can be seduced into following an authoritarian leader and how difficult it can be to find a way out. end of excerpts from Amazon's description of Undertow ~ ~ ~ ~ This section is for those interested in textual criticism and how we got the Bible. *Textual criticism and origin of the Bible: Excerpts from Wikipedia article on textual criticism: The objective of the textual critic's work is to provide a better understanding of the creation and historical transmission of the text and its variants. This understanding may lead to the production of a critical edition containing a scholarly curated text. If a scholar has several versions of a manuscript but no known original, then established methods of textual criticism can be used to seek to reconstruct the original text as closely as possible. The same methods can be used to reconstruct intermediate versions, or recensions, of a document's transcription history, depending on the number and quality of the text available… … In some domains, such as religious and classical text editing, the phrase "lower criticism" refers to textual criticism and "higher criticism" to the endeavor to establish the authorship, date, and place of composition of the original text… … Textual criticism has been practiced for over two thousand years, as one of the philological arts.[4] Early textual critics, especially the librarians of Hellenistic Alexandria in the last two centuries BC, were concerned with preserving the works of antiquity, and this continued through the Middle Ages into the early modern period and the invention of the printing press. Textual criticism was an important aspect of the work of many Renaissance humanists, such as Desiderius Erasmus, who edited the Greek New Testament, creating the Textus Receptus. In Italy, scholars such as Petrarch and Poggio Bracciolini collected and edited many Latin manuscripts, while a new spirit of critical enquiry was boosted by the attention to textual states, for example in the work of Lorenzo Valla on the purported Donation of Constantine. Many ancient works, such as the Bible and the Greek tragedies, survive in hundreds of copies, and the relationship of each copy to the original may be unclear. Textual scholars have debated for centuries which sources are most closely derived from the original, hence which readings in those sources are correct. Although texts such as Greek plays presumably had one original, the question of whether some biblical books, like the Gospels, ever had just one original has been discussed.[5] Interest in applying textual criticism to the Quran has also developed after the discovery of the Sana'a manuscripts in 1972, which possibly date back to the seventh to eighth centuries… …Before inexpensive mechanical printing, literature was copied by hand, and many variations were introduced by copyists. The age of printing made the scribal profession effectively redundant. Printed editions, while less susceptible to the proliferation of variations likely to arise during manual transmission, are nonetheless not immune to introducing variations from an author's autograph. Instead of a scribe miscopying his source, a compositor or a printing shop may read or typeset a work in a way that differs from the autograph.[11] Since each scribe or printer commits different errors, reconstruction of the lost original is often aided by a selection of readings taken from many sources. An edited text that draws from multiple sources is said to be eclectic. In contrast to this approach, some textual critics prefer to identify the single best surviving text, and not to combine readings from multiple sources. [12] ... ... When comparing different documents, or "witnesses", of a single, original text, the observed differences are called variant readings, or simply variants or readings. It is not always apparent which single variant represents the author's original work. The process of textual criticism seeks to explain how each variant may have entered the text, either by accident (duplication or omission) or intention (harmonization or censorship), as scribes or supervisors transmitted the original author's text by copying it. The textual critic's task, therefore, is to sort through the variants, eliminating those most likely to be un-original, hence establishing a critical text, or critical edition, that is intended to best approximate the original. At the same time, the critical text should document variant readings, so the relation of extant witnesses to the reconstructed original is apparent to a reader of the critical edition. In establishing the critical text, the textual critic considers both "external" evidence (the age, provenance, and affiliation of each witness) and "internal" or "physical" considerations (what the author and scribes, or printers, were likely to have done).[5] … Eclecticism Eclecticism refers to the practice of consulting a wide diversity of witnesses to a particular original. The practice is based on the principle that the more independent transmission histories there are, the less likely they will be to reproduce the same errors. What one omits, the others may retain; what one adds, the others are unlikely to add. Eclecticism allows inferences to be drawn regarding the original text, based on the evidence of contrasts between witnesses. External evidence External evidence is evidence of each physical witness, its date, source, and relationship to other known witnesses. Critics will often prefer the readings supported by the oldest witnesses. Since errors tend to accumulate, older manuscripts should have fewer errors. Readings supported by a majority of witnesses are also usually preferred, since these are less likely to reflect accidents or individual biases. For the same reasons, the most geographically diverse witnesses are preferred. Some manuscripts[which?] show evidence that particular care was taken in their composition, for example, by including alternative readings in their margins, demonstrating that more than one prior copy (exemplar) was consulted in producing the current one. Other factors being equal, these are the best witnesses. The role of the textual critic is necessary when these basic criteria are in conflict. For instance, there will typically be fewer early copies, and a larger number of later copies. The textual critic will attempt to balance these criteria, to determine the original text. There are many other more sophisticated considerations. For example, readings that depart from the known practice of a scribe or a given period may be deemed more reliable, since a scribe is unlikely on his own initiative to have departed from the usual practice.[18] Internal evidence Internal evidence is evidence that comes from the text itself, independent of the physical characteristics of the document. Various considerations can be used to decide which reading is the most likely to be original. Sometimes these considerations can be in conflict.[18] Two common considerations have the Latin names lectio brevior (shorter reading) and lectio difficilior (more difficult reading). The first is the general observation that scribes tended to add words, for clarification or out of habit, more often than they removed them. The second, lectio difficilior potior (the harder reading is stronger), recognizes the tendency for harmonization—resolving apparent inconsistencies in the text. Applying this principle leads to taking the more difficult (unharmonized) reading as being more likely to be the original. Such cases also include scribes simplifying and smoothing texts they did not fully understand.[19] Another scribal tendency is called homoioteleuton, meaning "similar endings". Homoioteleuton occurs when two words/phrases/lines end with the similar sequence of letters. The scribe, having finished copying the first, skips to the second, omitting all intervening words. Homoioarche refers to eye-skip when the beginnings of two lines are similar.[20] The critic may also examine the other writings of the author to decide what words and grammatical constructions match his style. The evaluation of internal evidence also provides the critic with information that helps him evaluate the reliability of individual manuscripts. Thus, the consideration of internal and external evidence is related. After considering all relevant factors, the textual critic seeks the reading that best explains how the other readings would arise. That reading is then the most likely candidate to have been original. Canons of textual criticism Various scholars have developed guidelines, or canons of textual criticism, to guide the exercise of the critic's judgment in determining the best readings of a text. One of the earliest was Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687–1752), who in 1734 produced an edition of the Greek New Testament. In his commentary, he established the rule Proclivi scriptioni praestat ardua, ("the harder reading is to be preferred").[21] Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745–1812) published several editions of the New Testament. In his 1796 edition,[22] he established fifteen critical rules. Among them was a variant of Bengel's rule, Lectio difficilior potior, "the harder reading is better." Another was Lectio brevior praeferenda, "the shorter reading is better", based on the idea that scribes were more likely to add than to delete.[23] This rule cannot be applied uncritically, as scribes may omit material inadvertently. Brooke Foss Westcott (1825–1901) and Fenton Hort (1828–1892) published an edition of the New Testament in Greek in 1881. They proposed nine critical rules, including a version of Bengel's rule, "The reading is less likely to be original that shows a disposition to smooth away difficulties." They also argued that "Readings are approved or rejected by reason of the quality, and not the number, of their supporting witnesses", and that "The reading is to be preferred that most fitly explains the existence of the others."[24] Many of these rules, although originally developed for biblical textual criticism, have wide applicability to any text susceptible to errors of transmission. From: Textual criticism - Wikipedia See also Textual criticism | Definition, Examples, & Facts | Britannica What Is Textual Criticism? Why Is the Textual Criticism of the Bible Necessary? by Don Stewart (blueletterbible.org) Textual criticism - what is it? | GotQuestions.org What is textual criticism? | Zondervan Academic What Is Textual Criticism? And How Is It Different Than Translation? (logos.com) Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?: Bruce, F. F.: 9780802822192: Amazon.com: Books The Canon of Scripture: Bruce, F. F.: 9780830812585: Amazon.com: Books How We Got the Bible, Third Edition: Neil R. Lightfoot: 9780801072611 - Christianbook.com How We Got Our Bible: Third Edition: Ralph Earle: 9780834124950: Amazon.com: Books The Origin of the Bible, Updated Edition: F. F. Bruce, J. I. Packer, Philip W. Comfort, Carl F. J. Henry: 9781414379326 - Christianbook.com That’s all for now, folks

Peter’s experience is a ‘matter of record’ as well as anything else recorded in Scripture – like in the gospels, Acts, letters to the churches and individuals…In that sense – yes, Peter is not ranking Scripture over his experience – since his experiences are evidence offered up to support the case for God-breathed Scripture. But on the other hand, I also get the idea we should not look for similar experiences to authenticate the Word of God. I read II Peter 1:16 and now what usually comes to mind is how wierwille fabricated a bunch of stories – like the 1942 audible promise of God to him, and other embellished and fictitious anecdotes – to establish a cult following him and his ‘legendary’ experiences. Amplified Bible For we did not follow cleverly devised stories or myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty [His grandeur, His authority, His sovereignty]…II Peter 1:16 I can only speak for myself in saying that what sold me on wierwille as the real deal – as the man of God to explain Scripture - was reading about his experiences in The Way: Living in Love…So, to reiterate what I said earlier I should have made the study of Scripture a top priority (and specifically for me, even heeded all the warnings about false teachers and the criteria for discernment) instead of being impressed by wierwille’s deceptive façade.

Not sure - it might have been over I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.