T-Bone

Great thread, Cman – I love it when everyone thinks out loud – great posts! I know we're getting into a lot of speculation here – but I figure as long as that's acceptable to all - imho that makes doctrinal discussions great fun! So far, as I read and re-read the passage and consider other references by Paul of the qualities of the heavenly realm – I lean towards his in/out of the body reference as an actual physical event that happened to him – as opposed to a vision or some intellectual enlightenment kind of thing. The words "caught up" in II Corinthians 12: 2, 4 is indeed from the same Greek word harpazo used in I Thessalonians 4:17; a few of the other occurrences are in: Matthew 11:12 "…the violent take it by force…", John 6:15 "…would come and take him by force…", Acts 8:39 "…the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip…", Revelation 12:5 "…her child was caught up unto God…". From the usages the verb harpazo appears to be an actual moving, seizing or taking of something by force. In addition, it is something of a physical nature – in other words not an intellectual grasping of an idea – but a physical grabbing of an object or person. That's why I tend to view Paul's experience as a real, physical experience – and not a vision – which would be a manifestation of something immaterial. Getting back to Paul's in/out of the body reference here's the passage from Michael Magill's New Testament Transline of II Corinthians 12: 1-4. The introduction of Magill's translation says it's a literal translation arranged in outline format so as not only to translate the words, but also to visually display the flow of thought contained in the Greek words. II Corinthians 12:1-4 1 It-is-necessary to boast. It is not beneficial – but I will come to visions and revelations from the Lord 2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago whether in the body, I do not know, or outside of the body, I do not know, God knows That such a one was snatched-away to the third heaven 3 And I know such a man Whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know. God knows 4 That he was snatched away into paradise, and heard unspeakable words which are not permitted for a man to speak That the experience might have been more than a vision is suggested by "revelations" in verse 1. I imagine one way God could reveal something hidden to a person is by actually taking them to the place where it is hidden… …Was this an out-of-the-body experience? I don't know…Part of me says "maybe so" with the way he flip flops on whether it was in or out of his body. If he was "in the body" – he was literally taken into heaven by the power of God. If he was "apart from the body" – I guess he was some kind of disembodied spirit. Maybe the experience was so unusual, so fantastic, so disorienting, so other-worldly – that Paul found it impossible to relate what his senses took in. If this was indeed an actual physical transportation to the heavenly realm…to some other dimension…I don't know – somewhere – maybe he had a hard time figuring out how God pulled it off [noted by his saying "I don't know"]. What would a cave man make of time-traveling scientists throwing a space suit on him, shoving him into a space capsule, shooting him out into space, and then having him take a walk outside while tethered to the capsule?...Yeah you're right – ol' Alley Oop would probably be longing to get back to his honey Raquel Welch in that tight little animal skin outfit. I wonder if some of why he speaks of himself in the third person is perhaps more than just an attempt to take the spotlight off himself – maybe how people will sometimes reflect on a profound experience – playing back the memory – "watching it" almost as if it were a movie of someone else… Anyway…I heavily lean towards it being something Paul actually experienced in his earthly body – noting Paul saying he "heard unspeakable words" in verse 4. Magill notes in his translation that "unspeakable" has two senses – because it is beyond human ability, or not to be spoken because it is too holy – which is probably the meaning in view of the "not permitted to speak" which follows…Also considering that he mentions hearing leads me to think this was a physical experience, that he had all his senses – overloaded with sensations way over the top! What does heaven smell like? …I used to think of the spiritual realm as some immaterial world – with wispy ghost-like beings – nothing of any real substance. However, a few books I've read have got me wondering if the "spiritual realm" is just as physical as the ground upon which we walk – but remains hidden to our way of sensing things. The books talk about other dimensions, super-string theory, physics, etc. There's The Extra-Dimensionality of God – Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astronomy and Physics Reveal about the Nature of God by Hugh Ross. Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time, The Universe in a Nutshell, and The Illustrated Theory of Everything. Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, and The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality…Maybe that's why God unites souls with bodies in the Rapture and resurrections – for a soul to experience eternity it needs a body – an eternal body. …So did Paul experience dimension-travel? Was it an in-body-but-out-of-this-world experience? I'm thinking he really went some where – the third heaven – where is that? Another dimension? Or dimensions - some string theorists suggest there's at least 10 dimensions. What's the physical properties of that place – or does it have any? What did he see, hear, feel, while there? Perhaps there's a whole lot more that he knew than what he wrote about like in II Corinthians 4:17 NIV For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. Maybe he actually caught a glimpse of what awaits us! And maybe he got an idea of what our new bodies will be like during his visit there – interesting to think about when you read passages like I Corinthians 15:35-58 and II Corinthians 5:1-5.

Well, Potato – I've been mulling over the penalty for vandalism...the death sentence? Way too harsh a punishment for vandalism, they wouldn't do that – and besides…seeing how I'll already be dead that's a non-issue…Incarceration? Well, anywhere other than a hole in the ground might be an improvement…A fine? Yikes! Considering the fact that I won't have a viable source of income [What's the yearly salary of a compost heap anyway?] – I had better work out the tombstone editing details with the cemetery! I do like Dooj's idea of the changing marquee. Thank you both for your help – sometimes I get so bogged down with thinking through the really important things of life…and death. Oh and Dooj I really liked your "Stairway To TWI’s Heaven"! edited by me...just because I could...

Thanks Bagpipes and Groucho – your posts are along the lines of what I was trying to say in my post # 14: erroneous doctrine yields erroneous practice. Usually when someone repeats an action often enough it becomes a habit. Habits can be a good thing or a bad thing – depending on the habit. Habits are taken for granted – they go unnoticed – maybe even being an unconscious process…I don't know - I'm not a Psyche Major…they usually do not register on our radar…deemed insignificant. That's why I think they're important! On a self-improvement level, I'm of the opinion that habits which have a significant and cumulative effect on our character, the way we process information, the way we make decisions, the way we interact socially, etc. should come under stringent scrutiny during our reflective moments. Very committed TWI-followers are highly-trained in a grossly abnormal Modus Operandi. I venture to say that even if you could force-feed right doctrine into them – it would only get shredded and re-configured at the threshold PFAL filtration system – before it even gets to the mental digestive system – [okay so I'm not a Biology Major either]…Bagpipes talked about the cultish mentality/mindset. These are acquired intellectual habits…And I really liked Groucho's emphasizing real Christianity is about our relationship with the Lord and not an exercise in academics! I firmly believe that! As much as I enjoy studying the Bible and doctrinal discussions – my personal faith is a whole lot more about Lordship than scholarship! That brings me back to habits and mindsets again. The mindset I had in TWI: Bible Knowledge based on PFAL is where it's at. Get in the habit of reading PFAL material frequently. Absorb. Absorb. Absorb. That's why I said it before and I'll say it again. Former TWI-leaders who really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians HAVE NO BUSINESS immediately starting their own ministry. They are so well-trained in error it's going to take awhile to rectify the way they function. And it's going to take a lot more than just studying systematic theology until you're blue in the face. It all hinges on humbling ourselves before our Lord Jesus [instead of the Board of Trustees or any other idol, alive or dead] and submitting to His "academic program" – acquiring a new habit – choosing to obey Him.

Great article by Stedman –thanks for that link, Bliss – and yes it is interesting to compare some differences on topics that are peripheral to this thread – like Stedman's reference to the three different usages of "heaven" – a difference in location – not a difference in time as VPW taught. That's one reason I no longer subscribe to the "gap theory" [VPW said the first and second heaven and earth are separated in time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 and is attributed to the time-frame of Lucifer's rebellion with the ensuing catastrophic cosmic upheaval]. Stedman’s handling the third heaven as God’s realm is similar to what I’ve read in a few commentaries – interesting that Stedman likened it to a fourth dimension. Lot’s of stuff to think about. What’s it like in God’s realm? I imagine it’s a timeless place – don’t know – never been there. What if God transports someone there. Is it time-travel to the person? How much would Disneyland charge for a ride like that? About Paul's reference in/out of the body – I find it most intriguing he refers to himself in the third person. If that was me I would have been boasting all over the place "I was caught up into Paradise – me – me – what an experience!"…I wonder how long before Paul wrote of it that he had this experience – and it just burned silently like a fiery comet in his humble soul. The treachery these false apostles were committing forced Paul's hand – he wasn't a braggart… …I've also wondered about John's experience of the future – which he relates in the book of Revelation. The way John talks I get the idea he actually experienced those things – like he was there – like God did a time-travel thing for John. I know – sounds nutty – but I think sometimes when I used to read Revelation my mind assumed certain parts are a vision – you know – in other words the person isn't really there – God is just showing them a video or something…So maybe there's some similarities between Paul's and John's experience – an out-of-the-body experience…a time-travel experience – whatever it was the experience was indescribable…What also intrigues me is Paul's use of "caught up" – If my memory serves me right I think it's the same Greek word [not around my research books right now] used in I Thessalonians about the Rapture – not a vision – but an actual event that will physically transform and transport believers: I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I want to revise the "Disciplines…" benefit to read "Disciplines the TWIt-minded by encouraging them to think."…I know, I know- I like to edit myself to death…Which brings up an opportunity for doctrinal research on Are the Dead Alive Now?...Sometime in the future – after I've passed away – what if below the clumsily altered prose on my tombstone were the words "Edited posthumously by me." edited by me - to stay true to form

Great poem, PinkLady…What the Way Corps taught me was to put TWI first, anything that supported me in my efforts to put TWI first - had second place…Now this is just my opinion – I can't speak for everyone – just relating how the priorities worked in my head...I think there's only a few covenants ordained by God mentioned in the Bible. One of them is marriage. I don't recall any God-ordained covenants for TWI in the Bible.

PinkLady – you’ve got lots of great advice here from everyone – and like Sushi said you've answered your own question. It sounds like you’ve got something pretty good there…Personally, I feel anyone who leaves TWI has a lot more to deal with than just identifying the wrong doctrine they’ve absorbed. They’ve got to look inside themselves and investigate how TWI’s toxic doctrines polluted the way they function as a person. I ranted about this on CoolWater’s thread – and forgive me if I speak out of turn here – but I feel it’s probably a healthy choice for any God-loving Christian that leaves TWI to pick a local church…And I may be wrong on this too – but I think any TWI leader that leaves has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry – just because of the toxic doctrine that has polluted their thinking process. And if they really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians – they need to cool their jets awhile and subject themselves to the tutelage of a local church. And if the former TWI leader has a hard time deciding which church to join – I’d suggest he join the one he criticized the most. And I understand what you mean about how great it is to have someone to talk to that understands the nightmare we’ve escaped. I’m fortunate to have Tonto [my wife] who went through all that crap with me – TWI is murder on marriages. And obviously – I’ve saved the best for last – Grease Spot Café.

Happy Birthday, Goey - love yah Tonto & T-Bone

"...Holding fast to my integrity..." That's my favorite part, Potato! And such a rare thing for anyone in that group to do! I'm glad you've escaped!

Okay, RumRunner – yah got me thinking – I ran the benefits on the Green Card through a tweaking machine and maybe we could use them on a handout card for GSC: Grease Spot Café Lets you establish and maintain your own point of view Develops more harmony with yourself Makes the Internet meaningful Overcomes worry and fear of how to kill time Explains walking Bible contradictions [a.k.a. BOT] Enables you to separate the fog years, the Patriarch years, the Rosie years Disciplines TWIts for leaving their brains behind Teaches how to get paid effectually [work at a job like normal folks] Promotes prosperity and health [by an affordable menu with fresh ingredients]

Great post, CoolWaters! You always have some interesting stuff…After reading this thread and thinking about some of the things I heard with offshoot groups [like the ones on CES lately] – and thinking about the poison you mentioned – I'm even more convinced that post-TWI resolution is a lot more challenging than just identifying erroneous doctrine. It's also figuring out where the toxic ideas have polluted how we function personally and socially. Tonto and I were talking about this the other night – anyone who has left – especially leadership – has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if they truly have some kind of calling to serve other Christians maybe they ought to cool their jets awhile – perhaps subject themselves to the tutelage of some local church. And here's a suggestion on how to pick one – ask the former TWI leader what religious group he criticized the most – and yup – that's the one he's to join. Sorry, to rant on your thread, CoolWaters – but it really struck a nerve with me!

Yup – I think that a lot – seems to happen more regularly the older I get – my dang processor is slowing down!...I do admire your nerve! Besides having a slow processor I don't like to be confrontational. I don't know if I could have even mustered up enough gumption to respond like you did. I'd probably pretend I didn't hear the question and say something like "Isn't it nice weather we're having?"

“Sure - as soon as Green Cards fly out my butt. And if that’s why you’re here the Proctologist is two doors down the hall.” But seriously, WaterBuffalo - I think you gave the perfect response – a simple “No” with an incredulous laugh – short and to the point! That says it all right there!

The Eagle has landed – oops – change that – the Eagle did a fly-by…Really enjoyed your post, Eagle – a hilarious incident – thanks!

If that would have been me meeting those people – I would have asked, “Who came up with the Chihuahua?”…And then I’d look ’em right in the eye and ask, “Why?”

I wouldn’t say what is portrayed in Psalm 104 is idyllic…Maybe – that’s the way things work for now – there IS a harsh reality implied by the reference to lions hunting their prey…And I agree with you saying - not everyone who is industrious gains wealth. It goes back to what you said about no guarantees. I could be mistaken but I tend to think many of the statements in Proverbs are generalizations – in other words – not a bunch of trade secrets for cracking the prosperity code – but more like observations – noting a general rule of thumb. Maybe it’s saying hard workers are usually rewarded. And I would think with as much as Proverbs harps on wisdom that it’s safe to assume we should work smarter as well! When I think of industrious – I recall a variety of people I’ve worked with over the years. Some who have held two – and even three jobs at a time. Some who have put themselves through school at night – to earn a degree – that and their drive/skills opens doors to a better job…Businesses that offer a good product or provide reliable service tend to prosper. They are rewarded by repeat sales, strong customer base, etc. I can’t say much about lazy people – because I tend to avoid them…And “wealth” is a relative term…