T-Bone

The way labeling appears to work in the Bible is that it specifies a particular behavior of a person as such a dominant characteristic as to warrant them that title. Thus a person is called a "thief" because he steals. An "adulterer" is one who commits adultery. I wouldn't confuse the issue by saying any of these people have an "evil character." People are complicated beings and the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary says "character" is the complex of mental and ethical traits marking and often individualizing a person. So perhaps another way of describing a person who has a long-suit in lying - would be to say that the person has a serious character flaw in personal integrity. Look at a directive in I Corinthians 5 for dealing with an immoral person who refuses to repent – it says the person is to be expelled! Note especially the use of labels in verse 11 "…you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler…" Wow wee – I bet Paul never would have imagined all those sinful traits being wrapped up in one little ol' plagiarist of the twentieth century? I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people — 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." Interesting - the instruction is to expel - not embrace the immoral person. From what I remember in studying the background of I and II Corinthians - this act of excommunication was instrumental in a particular immoral person repenting - and in II Corinthians Paul encourages them to welcome the person back into the fold with open arms. The immoral person repented between the time-frame of when I and II Corinthians were written... My point - I'm not condemning anyone to hell or labeling anyone as evil-incarnate. Maybe if some of the leadership of a little ol' religious outfit like TWI would have had the guts to confront VPW early on - maybe things would have worked out a whole lot differently! If you notice Paul's reasoning for expelling this person was because of the bad influence it would have on the whole church of Corinth [verses 6 to 8]. There were always people around who chose to look the other way, cover up, or minimize, rationalize or some how justify VPW's despicable behavior – and I think they bear some of the responsibility in allowing his influence to poison an organization. And judging by the posts of some VPW-defenders here at GSC – there's still people around who wish to carry on that nefarious mission – thereby perpetuating his insidious legacy.

Probably more thinking…you know how some people like to think on their feet…or is that some people like a stink on their feet…I dunno…better check Bartlettes.

Yikes – it looks like trouble’s a brewing at Grease Spot Café…Anytime there’s a brouhaha in bogusville we usually settle it the old fashion way – an arm wrestling contest at the counter…Yup yup…The Challenging Counter-Fight: The Satorites versus the GWOTHs.

Oh man! I'm excited now! Chomping at the bit! I have always dreamed of working for someone who dreams of scorpions...After hearing of the Right Reverend So-and-so-Groucho turning in his resignation – I was wondering if his secret decoder ring is up for grabs to anyone employed under your misery ministry. I really really really really and virtually [but minus any virtues] would like to be on your research staff. I have included a sample of the work I did for another outfit. The following is a fabrication translation I made up worked up from two different documents: The Extreme-Egomaniac Persnickety Text and The Hypocritical Insinseriously Text. Exodus 20: 1-21 1 And Shyster spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the lord thy god, which have brought thee out of the land of Christianity. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth – unless you run it by me first – and if and when it meets my approval said graven image shall beareth tribute to me. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to anyone else, nor serve them: for I the lord god Shyster am a jealous Shyster, visiting the duplicity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate my agenda; and make sure there's a parking spot for my motor coach when I come to visit; 6 And shew mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not mix a drink in the name of the lord god Shyster in any pure grain alcohol save Drambui; for Shyster shalt lay such a guilt-trip on you. 8 Remember Uncle Harry day, to keep it holy – and I won't give a rat's ar$$ what you do the rest of the year. 9 Six days shalt thou labour for me, and do all thy other work that pays the bills on your own time: 10 But the seventh day is Shyster's Day: in it thou shalt not do any of thy other work that pays the bills, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates [unless of course they are earning extra money to pay for my class]: 11 For in one day the lord god Shyster made this two-bit operation, yah see, and all that in it is, and rested thereafter on his lazy ar$$: wherefore the lord god Shyster blessed Shyster's Day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father in the word and give me your mother: that thy days may be long within my two-bit operation which the lord thy god Shyster giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill time with any hobby or recreation that taketh away from your duties, responsibilities, and required meetings of aforementioned two-bit operation. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery – that's my job. 15 Thou shalt not steal – that's my job too! 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against Shyster – and if thou should be dumb enough to do such a thing then thou shalt surely die…the slow death of character assassination by way of but not limited to being labeled demon-possessed. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his foot, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's – as I said before and for the last time – that's my job! And let's keep it simple – bring the neighbor's wife and maidservant around to my motor coach – all the other stuff drop off at my treasury office [but use some common sense if it's big like a house just bring the title deed]…oh and touch base with me later as far as what to do with the manservant. 18 And all the people saw Shyster's hissy-fit of thunderings, and lightnings, and the noise of the ar$$-trumpet, and the smoke coming out of his earballs: and when the people saw all these things, they removed their brains, and stood afar off from their brains. 19 And they said unto Shyster, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not reason speak with us, lest we also die the slow death of character assassination. 20 And Shyster said unto the people, Fear not: for I have come to prove you, and from henceforth this fear of me shalt be re-labeled "love." 21 And the people continuously stood afar off from their brains, and Shyster drew near unto the thick darkness which he claimed was due to snow blindness in the middle of July.

Dear Prophet Satori001 - since the bus driver position is already taken [hmmmm…let me think about that image for a minute…eeehhhhww] perhaps I could work on your research staff I’m a big fan of scorpions and would do anything to work with a prophet-type-person that dreams about them.

And that's why some religions discourage thinking...because it can lead to dancing.

Garth, I too love threads like this and always appreciate your honest input. Your comments certainly hit me right between the eyes. And since I opened my big mouth earlier on this thread I feel like I ought to share my take on things – and dutifully insert foot in mouth. What you described WAS my normal operating mindset back in TWI-daze. Since leaving that mentality – I view some things differently. Please understand this is not a defense of Christianity or of my viewpoint – I just wish to explain my viewpoint – my personal faith. I certainly don’t view people who are not Christian as incapable of making a righteous or moral decision…If I may be permitted to render some ideas as religiously neutral – maybe that will help me get my point across better. And again – I’m not trying to defend Christianity or represent myself as a qualified theologian – this is just my dumb interpretation of things…so here goes: Things like sanctification, mortification, and pursuing godliness I view as a process of self-improvement [my religiously neutral term]. I’m a technician by trade so I get really excited by processes – I’m always looking for a good way to do something or to improve on the way something gets done. Sometimes I think I get hung up on focusing on a process and forget what the purpose of the process is. The goal of my self-improvement process is kinda broad: become more Christ-like, please my Lord, serve my fellowman, etc. For want of a better analogy I look at myself and others as a pretty good operating system but susceptible to user-error. To pick back up on my TWI-daze – I think I focused more on the process: “Am I doing this right – how would VPW do that?...Should I do this or that – better talk to my leadership…Oh I really screwed that up – man am I gonna hear it from LCM!” Don’t think I ever focused much on what I was becoming – a perfect TWI follower. That’s because that was the purpose of TWI’s way of processing things…Some of how I understand grace now is that it is God’s loving assistance in time of need. I see grace as using my brain [which I believe He designed] to work out a solution – and there’s always the distinct possibility of His gracious influence via His Spirit in me and/or working in people/situations that cross my path. I’ve never heard an audible voice of God – don’t understand how the Holy Spirit works – but I believe He’s at work in me. I do read the Scriptures quite a bit but try to read with an active mind. So sometimes when I read or reflect on Scripture – something will hit me that may or may not be related at all to the passage, like: “Am I guilty of doing that?” or “Maybe I should adopt that habit” or “maybe that situation I’m worrying about is a matter of prayer” or “I think I should see how my son’s work project is coming.”…Anyway – is that all just coming from me? Is any of that attributable to God’s Spirit? I dunno. Like I said – I’m more into the goal than the process. What kind of person am I now? What kind of person am I becoming?

...would that be a case of wrong seed?

I don't think Christianity is in a pickle – just Wierwille-anity – a religion based on VPW – a person with some serious character flaws…for instance: Plagiarism is NOT negligence – failing to cite sources. It is STEALING the product of someone else's work and LYING by representing it as the fruit of one's own efforts…How you can equate the Holy Spirit's guidance to biblical writers in the editing process of Scripture – with plagiarism is beyond me! Perhaps if you spent more time reviewing the facts and less time revering VPW you might get yourself out of that Wierwille-anity pickle. While you're at it – maybe spend a little more time looking into how the Bible was written instead of how you think VPW wrote his books.

That would make sense, Hamm according to VPW teaching Paul's thorn in the flesh was people hounding him - - over plagiarizing their stuff…Now we know the rest of the story.

A tricky little re-defining of terms yah got there – so according to your post: Plagiarism is not plagiarism when the plagiarist is directed by God to plagiarize. VPW's books are equal in status to the Bible. …I appreciate you letting me know your viewpoint – that's a good thing to know on any doctrinal discussions.

That’s nothing, Vegan – I remember a Corps Night teaching in residence LCM referring to the Special Olympics athletes as “freaks of nature.”

Happy Birthday...relax...take the day off...sprawl out on the couch.

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, you've heard a witness testify she has seen spiders coming out of the noses of the possessed…and another individual claim a monkey flew out his butt. Now you must decide if that was in fact a spider monkey or if the spiders acted snotty towards my client.

I have to agree with you there, Sprawled Out. In my opinion, any brand of Christianity that discourages the use of our critical thinking skills is encouraging a mindless religion. I also think your conclusion is correct about church groups that do that – their followers acquire an intellectual helplessness – which is great for building dependency in their followers – guaranteeing repeat customers! I think God puts a lot of stock in one of His finest creations – our brains – and expects us to use them. Maybe that was the reason He had a whole book dedicated to the art of THINKING wisely – Proverbs.

I haven't had a chance to listen to Episode 8 yet – I downloaded it on my PC at home – looking forward to it…But I would like to comment about these posts – they remind me of something simple to remember whenever I step back and want to gauge what I think of someone: Actions speak louder than words and reveal MUCH MORE about the person's character.

I agree, Cman – GSC is a GREAT place to exchange ideas! Lots of great stuff on this thread! Your post reminded me of something that has helped me a lot – learning to identify self-sabotaging thoughts….Amazing how much we can beat ourselves up mentally by these internal monologues. Like: “Oh – I really screwed up that project at work today – man, isn’t that the story of my life.” I’ve read some good books on the subject but the biggest thing I got out of them is identifying the typical ones that screw with our heads: Ten Cognitive Distortions – which are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion

I tried snow skitching a few times [think I was 17 at the time] – until I hit a dry patch of road [or it might have been a big pothole]. Thereafter I KNEW what slamming on the brakes felt like – literally – especially my knees, hands and face…The craziest thing I’ve seen – a few years ago in Manhattan – kids on roller blades skitching on the back of UPS trucks – did yah hear me? I said “in Manhattan”!

Wow!!!!!! It looks great!!!!!!! You all really spruced up the place. Thanks for all your hard work. It's a big difference from the old joint: < the old joint

A big "Amen" on TheEvan's reply! Cman – great topic for folks that have escaped the tyranny of TWI's mental bondage. Although, the struggle you mention is not peculiar to TWI-followers – it is something that all Christians wrestle with on a regular basis. However, being a Christian in TWI's arena – puts one at a severe disadvantage. Some of the "rules" are changed and sometimes the wrestlers have their hands or feet tied [which really can hamper your dance moves as evidenced by Athletes of the Spirit]. Great counsel offered here by everyone! I think what folks have said here is more in line with what the Christian walk is like. We're all human – or as I heard someone once say "we're all Bozos on the same bus." A passage of Scripture that has often inspired me is Romans 7:7-8:17 [Oh look! It just happens to be below – "Posted here by the Gideons"]. It begins by revealing Paul's constant inner conflict – evaluating himself against the righteous standard of God's law – realizing how far short he falls by comparison! MacArthur Study Bible comments on Romans 7:24 Paul realizing what a wretched man he was by noting "A believer perceives his own sinfulness in direct proportion to how clearly he sees the holiness of God and perfection of His law." …We are in a constant struggle with sin and our sinful nature – we are fallen creatures. The law of God is good, holy, and righteous but the weakness of our flesh only makes sin and death out of it. Like Martin Luther entrenched in working for righteousness - reading Romans one day and realizing justification was by FAITH ALONE – I was struck by the juxtaposition of TWI's way of handling this struggle and Scripture's way. TWI's agenda was the standard by which to live and evaluate our lives [a cheap imitation of God's law in Romans 7] and to appease our troubled souls offered a sedative to the conscience [instead of empowering us to handle the battle by the power of the Spirit in Romans 8]. Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:17 NIV 7:7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Hey, Sunesis – interesting thing you mentioning about driving through fog and Christ walking through walls – the passage where Jesus visited His disciples after His resurrection. John 20: 19-29 NIV 19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." On pages 46 & 47 of Beyond the Cosmos Ross talks about this passage in extra-dimensional terms: "…Jesus would have no problem passing through the walls of that locked room with His physical body if He were to simply rotate His body into extra dimensions of space. For example, He could have rotated the first dimension of His physical body from spatial dimension one into spatial dimension four. He could have rotated the second dimension of His physical body from spatial dimension two into spatial dimension five. And He could have rotated the third dimension of His physical body from spatial dimension three into spatial dimension six. His physical body would then have been present in dimensions four, five, and six and absent from the disciples' dimensions one, two, and three. Since the walls of the upper room are in dimensions one, two, and three, they would no longer pose a barrier to Jesus' physical body. He would have no trouble moving into the upper room without disturbing the walls or doors. Once inside the upper room, He could have rotated His physical body from spatial dimensions four, five, and six back into dimensions one, two, and three, where the disciples could see, hear, and touch Him. This six-dimension rotation scenario may explain how Jesus entered the upper room to meet with His disciples after rising from the dead, or He may have chosen a different approach entirely. The point is not to assert one expalanation above others but rather to suggest that His multidimensional capabilities offer Him countless ways to accomplish the feat – and the feat itself more than hints at His extra-dimensionality…" End of excerpt The picture below is the Calabi-Yau six-dimensional form that string theory incorporates as the extra, curled up dimensions. Of course these are just theories – but do present some food for thought…As can be seen from the picture above some string theorists suggest these other dimensions are wrapped up inside each other…Which gets me to wonder about this "spiritual realm." I used to have a concept of it existing in another space/time. This string theory stuff suggests a more convoluted realm – not one superimposed on another necessarily – but…I don't know – one realm wrapped up inside another? It's hard to visualize – and I stink at that Rubik's Cube thing anyway…That would be weird wouldn't it – what if Paul's trip to the third heaven he didn't go anywhere [in terms of up or out into space or something] – God just rotated Paul's dimensions – and poof he's in the third heaven. Okay – now I'm thinking of Gene Wilder in Young Frankenstein when he discovered the secret entrance to his grandfather's laboratory – through the rotating bookcase – "Put the candle back!" Here's a couple of references that explain a little of what string theory is about. The following excerpt is from a Discover article The 11 Greatest Unanswered Questions of Physics by Eric Haseltine http://www.discover.com/issues/feb-02/cover/ "...All this leads us to the string theorists and their explanation for gravity, which includes other dimensions. The original string-theory model of the universe combines gravity with the other three forces in a complex 11-dimensional world. In that world—our world—seven of the dimensions are wrapped up on themselves in unimaginably small regions that escape our notice. One way to get your mind around these extra dimensions is to visualize a single strand of a spider web. To the naked eye, the filament appears to be one dimensional, but at high magnification it resolves into an object with considerable width, breadth, and depth. String theorists argue that we can't see extra dimensions because we lack instruments powerful enough to resolve them..." End of excerpt In a Slate article Science as Metaphor Amanda Schaffer critiques Greene's Elegant Universe book – and I thought her explanation of string theory simple and helpful – which I pasted below: http://www.slate.com/id/2103335/ "...First, a quick bit of background: String theory—and superstring/M theory, a variant—both propose a scheme that encompasses two major and previously incompatible scientific frameworks, general relativity and quantum mechanics. General relativity describes gravity in terms of the curvature of space-time by matter/energy and successfully quantifies the very large. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, explains the behavior of atoms and subatomic particles, characterizing the very small. String theory seeks to unify the mathematics of these colliding theories by positing that all matter and all fundamental forces can be described in terms of the vibrations of tiny, one-dimensional strings. (Mathematically, the theory also requires the existence of multiple, extra dimensions, said to be "curled-up" and as such beyond the realm of our sensory experience.) Greene likens the wiggling strands of string theory to the strings of musical instruments. In his telling, not only do different patterns of vibration produce different particles, but the whole universe is "akin to a string symphony vibrating matter into existence..." End of excerpt

Invisible Dan – LOL – your “Valvomatic Amp” caught my eye – but I’m so out of touch with musician’s gear I went along with it – I even found myself technically justifying the name in my head. I thought “guess the amp has some kind of electronic-solenoid-valve system in it like on a horn or church organ.” Waysider – excited to read about your Epiphone Bass – cool picture of it Socks.

Best wishes from Tonto and T-Bone!