T-Bone

Thanks, E. Prophet – but I’m just like a kid with a new toy – I’ve only been coming to GSC for a year – and have really been getting into this whole thinking out loud thing and exploring other viewpoints – and from your posts it looks like you’re a pro at this already. Kick back…relax…check out old threads on topics that interest you. The GSC folks are great - there’s such a wealth of wisdom, experience, and different perspectives here! ...I find discussions on threads can sometimes be an evolutionary process…like our discussion has been here. Everybody is throwing ideas up on a screen…it’s like figuring out a puzzle – seeing how the pieces fit together. Sometimes the puzzle is simply the stated topic of the thread. And perhaps there’s another puzzle-solving process going on in someone’s head – the bigger picture – that’s true for me on many threads. You know – the “ah ha” moment, or figuring out why something always bugged me about this or that – really whatever helps me sort out my TWI experience is a good thing. Sometimes I find myself coming to a better understanding of something by following a GSC old timer as they think out loud. I may not come to the same conclusion as them – but by following their process of thought – I was able to whittle down some issue in my head to its core elements and could then make a better informed decision on it…So there’s a lot of freedom here at GSC – enjoy…explore…think.

Mark Sanguinetti, thanks – I enjoyed reading your article on the Lordship of Jesus Christ…and think you hit the nail on the head with your comment. Estimated Prophet, please look over my post # 539 – after defining the office of an apostle from theological encyclopedias and pointing out Jesus' criteria for determining a false prophet - you quoted my comments on that but left off something that I thought really made my point in your situation: I wasn't trying to label anyone as a bad tree or condemn anyone as a false apostle. I was trying to answer your question of how do you determine if someone is a false prophet or apostle. The way I understand the office of an apostle from the scriptural data – is that it appears as a function that was necessary for the beginning of the church – so I see it as a non-issue here and maybe a topic reserved for debate in the doctrinal forum…As for false prophets – I cannot render a decision on CES since I have never been a part of the group. Jesus' instructions in Matthew 7 are for those who are having a first-hand experience with a false prophet – He mentions their predatory nature and type of fruit as a means of identifying them. II Peter 2 also has more info on the doctrines, doom, depravity, and deceptions of false teachers…Rather than me directing you on how to analyze someone else's ministry, office, or faith I think it would be more helpful for you to reflect inwards... ...After offering my opinion on the biblical definition of apostle - I then changed to what I actually thought was your dilemma…I think you may be experiencing something many of us Christians went through after leaving TWI. I don't know what you call it – maybe a crisis of faith – but I don't mean where it's doubting God or any of Christianity's big-ticket items [like Christ's resurrection, The Bible, prayer, etc.]. Sorry – I can't find a way to articulate it – maybe it's more like a crisis of practice or process – I dunno…a dilemma over HOW to practice my faith. I think Mark's article on the Lordship of Jesus Christ was most appropriate here. While in TWI my faith was TWI-leadership-centered rather than Christ-centered. The focus of my faith [TWI leadership] was a key reference point. It held sway over my decision-making ability. Where am I at spiritually? Just find out what TWI leadership thinks of me. What does this passage mean? Consult TWI leaders and TWI reference material. The status of MY spiritual life was bound up in and governed by TWI leadership. That's why the dilemma of some CES followers and leaders sounds SO FAMILIAR to me. So…maybe to clarify my earlier comments let me add – I'm not accusing any of the CES leadership of being false apostles or false prophets. I am suggesting that some of the followers and leaders may have succumbed to a practice of faith that is NOT Christ-centered – but CES-leadership-centered.

The integrity of the Word is at stake – A diversionary tactic by TWI leadership. May also be used in conjunction with the phrase “Let’s look at the truth behind the facts.” It is the best counter-measure that a TWI leader can launch against an attempt to investigate something they did. The basic meaning is “How dare you question me!” To murmur – a discussion by two or more TWI followers that usually revolves around the questionable behavior of a TWI-leader. It is considered by TWI leadership as one of the most taboo acts. Lockbox – 1. As a noun it refers to the place where any dirt on TWI-leadership should reside. Akin to the Phantom Zone of Superman fame – it takes a special gizmo to put the information in there [which is TWI leadership appealing to your concern for the integrity of the Word – see above entry] 2. As a verb it can be used as a directive to squelch your better judgment as in "If I were you I'd lockbox what just happened." 3. Sounding like the term "black box" which is a nearly indestructible flight recorder of technical and practical data used on commercial airlines – the Lockbox can serve a similar role – especially at GSC. Ex-TWI followers will often piece together what really happened on a particular occasion or can determine the details that led up to a "fatal crash" [traumatic event]. When it comes to the Word I have no friends – A veiled threat by TWI leadership that is equivalent to saying "Better not cross me on this one." I wish you could see it in the original – A useful technique in the repertoire of shysters – equivalent to saying "I have no documentation for my interpretation – so just take my word for it."

Some TWI beliefs – a simple twist of faith Believing images of victory – self-induced voodoo Believing the “best” for others – applying voodoo to other people Enables you to separate truth from error – 1. A clearly defined whim-of-the-day to live by. 2. A subliminal reference to PFAL At least you made an error in judgment and not in heart – “Okay – so what if you made a royal mistake – look, as long as you continue to drink the Kool-Aid you’re okay in my book.”

Man oh man! Between OldMan's avatar and you having a screen name of Prophet – I'm starting to get a little gun-shy – golly gee – look at my avatar – I'm just a little kid! But I will show some respect for my elders – "Yo, waitress – another round of cappuccino for everybody!"…Seriously – I have a lot of respect for the attitude you both have. I really love your Catholic Aunt's quote about being flixible...GSC is a great place to think out loud – a place of give and take…Doctrinal might be a good place for someone to start a thread on apostles – if there hasn't been one already – man, check out the archives – there's some threads that are so old – the posters used hieroglyphics and cave-drawings.

Yes, OldMan – I can understand that viewpoint. However, I get the idea from the scriptural references listed in the texts I quoted that there was something exceptional about an apostle. Like it was designed for a specific time-frame – the beginning of the church. That's just my opinion – and it sort of goes hand-in-hand with what I think of speaking in tongues. From the grammatical evidence in Corinthians it looks to me like speaking in tongues had a limited "lifespan." Furthermore it was a specific sign to the Jews at that time – as well as being something that further validated the ministry of the apostles. Oh - and excuse my poor manners - welcome to GSC, OldMan! The first round of cappuccino is on me.

Thanks for sharing that, Belle – I love it!!!!!!!!!! Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!! ...and so true...truth is funnier than fiction...

Thanks, Excathedra…I don’t think that bus driver would even have put me in charge of the bathroom on the bus.

I'm not an authority on the subject either – and on something like this I usually check out some biblical scholars on it, see what Scriptural references they see as relevant. The following excerpts from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, General Editor Geoffrey Bromiley, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 193, 195: "…In most of the approximately eighty cases in which the word "apostle" in the NT, it refers to the Twelve or to Paul. Their unique place is based upon the resurrected Jesus' having appeared to them and having commissioned them to proclaim the gospel as the eschatological action of God in Christ. As witnesses of Jesus' resurrection [Matthew 28; Like 24; Acts 1:22; 10:41; I Corinthians 9:1; 15:4] and sole witnesses of His ascension [Acts 1:9-13], they are the guarantors of His resurrection…Moreover, the risen Lord has particularly empowered them by the Holy Spirit for their whole ministry of witnessing, preaching, working miracles, establishing and guiding churches [John 20:22; Acts 1:8; II Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:1; I Corinthians 2], and bearing hardships, shame, and suffering for Jesus' sake [Acts 5:40f.; 12:1-4; Philippians 3:8; I Corinthians 9:1]…The apostles are regarded as setting the norms of doctrine and fellowship [Acts 2:42], the marking posts [Galatians 2:9], the rule by which one must measure his preaching [Galatians 2:2], the foundation [Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 21:14; I Corinthians 3:11]…[page 193] …By his apostolic commission Paul was separated from all other interests to God's gospel concerning His Son [Romans 1:1-3; I Corinthians 1:1,17; Galatians 1:15;2:7; Acts 22:14-17]. Other disciples had a long period of training fro their apostleship, but by this great encounter Christ made Paul forever His bond slave, debtor, and apostle [Romans 1:1,15]…In his letters to the church in Corinth Paul is constantly wringing all self-adulation out of his ministry that men may glory only in Christ…" [page 195] End of excerpts And excerpts from The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill Tenney, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 218, 219: "…Emphasis is laid on the divine choice [Acts 1:24]. The apostleship of Paul was also due to the divine choice and he was often at pains to point this out, both to emphasize the wonder of the grace of God, and to maintain the authority of his own message [Galatians 1:1,11,12,15-17. cf. Romans 1:1; I Corinthians 1:1; 9:1; 15:8]. There could be no substitute for a personal call from Christ to this service… …The work of a true apostle was accompanied by signs and wonders and mighty works [iI Corinthians 12:12], though such things are regarded as peripheral compared with Christian converts …" End of excerpts So – is a false apostle one who deviates from the above criteria? Well, for starters – are they an eye-witness of Christ's resurrection?...perhaps someone can show me in the Bible where the office of an apostle is necessary after the establishment of the church. Besides…we still have an apostle - - and high priest – Jesus Christ [Hebrews 3:1] – He is the sent one…with the rights, power and authority of the one who sent Him. One of the simplest teachings on false prophets is in Matthew 7:15-20 NIV 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. …Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15] – maybe they're just a Christian who feels insecure and is looking for an ego boost – perhaps they mean well – but this assumption of self-importance [which I've seen all too much back in TWI] rallies Christians around a mere human – hero worship. I don't have a problem with people wanting to teach others and to care for the church. Why does it have to be authorized with some self-assumed title or office? Throwing around these titles just hits me as a way to gain influence over others. Appeals are made to the authority of Scripture – when they wish to amass more authority for themselves. I think the biblical definition of apostle stresses divine choice, divine training and divine empowerment – but what I've seen from some people who love to flaunt the ordination badge – is their love for a divine position. What's wrong with just being a Christian? I liked one definition of humility I read - I think it's from Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life: true humility is not thinking less of yourself – but thinking of yourself less. Why are some so concerned with titles and church offices or positions? Is it a desire for greater recognition, more power, and influence, to boost their self-esteem? Not all – but there were some of the TWI clergy I dealt with that were so full of themselves…Why do I need a title to help my fellow Christian? What's fun about pretending we're the First Century Church right down to the way we talk, think, live? Playing make-believe doesn't make believers out of anyone.

Thanks – great posts everyone!...Yeah – speaking for myself – the reasons I joined and later left TWI revolve around some simple things I've been looking for on my life's journey. I was a Christian before joining TWI – and remained so after leaving TWI…I think for me it was like a gradual realization during the Patriarch aftermath – maybe becoming aware that my "internal compass" was indicating I've been way off course for awhile. By "internal compass" I don't mean some guiding light from above – I think of it as more like a direction to head towards - which I already had set for myself. The more I compared the things I wanted in life with the way TWI encouraged followers to go about achieving them – minor differences grew into a huge canyon between my goals and TWI's process for reaching those goals. It became obvious – my goals and their goals were not even similar. Alright – so what if my 12 year stint with them was a…magnificent diversion…I refuse to write it off as a total loss…I continue to draw on the whole experience for lessons learned…whether good or bad experiences…I think it takes humility and strength to learn from bad experiences. I've had several car wrecks in my life – each experience has motivated me to become a better driver, to be more aware of what other drivers are doing, to get better at thinking ahead, etc…And the good experiences – meeting my wife Tonto – and developing some great friendships over the years...I think of GSC as another good experience too – as something that was spawned by TWI – yes GSC IS an offshoot ! The people here are great – and our collective effort helps me continue to unravel the lessons bound up in my TWI experience.

Congrats, Eagle!!!! I’m ordering my copy this weekend and looking forward to reading it.

NASA astronauts first had Tang on Gemini flights in 1965. NASA astronauts first had poon tang on a space shuttle in 1983.

…And I was gonna make Cappuccino for everyone on the mile-high club thread…and pass out cigs for the afterglow…Anyway, Jonny – always enjoy your input on GSC and hope yah come back some time to visit. You and your family have my bon voyage prayers.

It does if you have a PC running a flight simulator program at the time, Mark…but I wouldn’t use Microsoft’s version…think it would be counter-productive.

Happy Birthday, Shell. I’ll never forget the time you brought me a Yoo Hoo while in Chat. Thought I’d bring a case to your birthday party…uhm…I hope everyone likes Yoo Hoo…if not that’s okay…more for me…

Seth, for your birthday you will be shipped to Gilligan’s Island where the resident Relaxation Therapist Ginger will help you achieve maximum relaxation.

I thought on your final approach your landing gear is supposed to be down… …Then there was the mile-high-couple that complained to the pilot there wasn’t enough room in his dinky plane – to which the pilot replied, “Guess you’ll have to wing it.”

Reasons why people join TWI: A great way to pi$$ off family and friends. Feeling guilty over having too much free time. Missing the good old days when mom told me what to do. I bet this law of believing will come in handy at the racetrack. Reasons why people leave TWI: If I hear “Lo Shanta” one more time. When I asked the pendant if I should stay it came back with “no.” While pumping gas on a snowy day in Denver I heard God say, “I’d blow this POP stand if I were you.” Found out it wasn’t a gopher problem at Headquarters but 67 Corps and Staff tunneling out. Feel free to add your own.

It makes me wonder how they came up with some of that airplane terminology like cockpit and joystick.

Oh geez…yah had to bring that up!...And that reminds me…did yah hear the one about the rich guy complaining that his girlfriend is so spoiled - that all she’s interested in now is just plane sex.

Great post, Socks!...In my opinion TWI is not the only group that seem a little too fascinated with the world of demons – maybe even to the point of being more focused and concerned about their power instead of - - - whoa, whoa, whoa - - back up a minute! Bet you thought I was going to say "instead of God's power available to them." Well, I would have in my TWI daze…When my TWIt-brain perceived life as a constant spiritual battle – always on the lookout for devil spirits behind a tree or behind someone who disagreed with my precious TWI-doctrine. Yeah – I was a Rambo for god [that's right small "g" for TWI's god-in-a-bottle…all yah do is rub the holy book PFAL three times and he comes out] – out there on the front lines – looking for something to cast out, identify or sending 'em running away scared at Rambo with all nine all the time…Great stuff for building false-confidence in my life – and for relieving oneself of moral responsibilities – blame it on the devil instead. What your post made me think of – is that I "see" things a little differently now. Yes I still believe there's an invisible battle going on – spiritual warfare – both without and within [my own sinful nature]. What has changed for me is how I deal with that warfare. The moral aspects of your post hit home for me! As a soldier in the Lord's army I now think my standing orders from God are to live an upright life, morally sound…obeying God – THAT is the best preparation for the spiritual battle! Romans 13:9-14 NIV 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Notice in the above passage surrounded by moral directives is verse 12, "So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light." That armor is available to everyone – by making good moral choices. Yah don't need no stinkin' advanced class.

Welcome to GSC, Gilligan!...Yeah – I agree with you on the Way Corps being a disastrous program. And I’ve often wondered why some former Corps stay entrenched in those life-sucking principles…I dunno…Maybe for some people after investing so much [time, money and sacrificed careers, personal interests, relationships, etc.] it’s kind of hard to admit they made a bad investment – and by golly they’re gonna make it pay off some how.

Wow!!! I love the color...Now all I can think about is getting some Cappucino...I know...there I go thinking about myself again instead of paying attention on a thread.

Yah coulda fooled me

Farticipant – one who attends a farting festival Farteralong – the person who farted and left the room Cheeksdom – the place where farts reside Cracktroops – small soldiers found on the inside of underwear