T-Bone

LikeAnEagle, I hope you don't mind me posting more stuff on this John 3:8 passage – I swear I'm not trying to hijack your thread or anything – – just thought some things I found might be of interest in a discussion of how the Spirit works. John 3:8 NASB The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8 NET The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. Two notes The NET Bible gives on this verse are as follows: The same Greek word, pneuvmato" (pneumatos), may be translated "wind" or "spirit." Again, the physical illustrates the spiritual, although the force is heightened by the word-play here on wind-spirit (see the note on wind at the beginning of this verse). By the end of the verse, however, the final usage of pneuvmato" (pneumatos) refers to the Holy Spirit. The Interlinear Bible, general editor and translator Jay P. Green has a literal translation in the side column – and for John 3:8 Green's literal translation reads: The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know where He comes, and where He goes – so is everyone who has received birth from the Spirit. I think Green's literal translation loses something eliminating the word-play of wind and Spirit. In my opinion keeping the comparison with the wind in the verse suggests the autonomy and mysteriousness of how the Sprit works. And in thinking about this word-play by Jesus I found mention of the words for "spirit" used in the Old and New Testament in Understanding Christian Theology , general editors Charles Swindoll and Roy Zuck, Part VI: Humanity and Sin, Chapter 4, The Material Aspect of Human Nature, page 686: …The most common word in the Old Testament for God's life-giving breath is the Hebrew ruah. This word is used elsewhere to refer to the wind, the breath [or spirit] of an individual, or the Spirit of God. Some commentators and translators have distinguished sharply between these referents, and that may be appropriate in places, but several verses make those distinctions difficult. For example, Genesis 1:2 speaks of the ruah on the surface of the waters. Is that the wind or the Spirit of God? The same difficulty exists in the New Testament with the Greek word pneuma. In John 3:8 Jesus said the pneuma blows where it wishes, and He compared that to those who are "born of the pneuma." We tend to translate one as "wind" and the other as "Spirit," but we probably overlook Jesus' association of the two images. Old Testament theologian Walter Eichrodt has appropriately summarized their interrelationship. "Ruah has retained at all times – and in this it is akin to the Greek pneuma – the meaning "wind," denoting the movement of air both outside Man in Nature, and inside him, his own breath. Just as, in ancient popular belief, the wind was regarded as something mysterious, the bringer of life and fertility, so at an early stage primitive Man observed that breath also was an indispensable bearer of life, the origin of which he could not explain. Just as Man only comes to life in the first place because God breathes into him his own breath of life, so in order for him to succeed during life the ruah must not be impaired or dwindle away, or, if it does vanish, it must return to him. Morever, even the animal kingdom is called into existence by the same vital principle. Hence every living thing in the world is dependent on God's constantly letting his breath of life go forth to renew the created order; and when its vital spirit from God is withdrawn every creature must sink down in death." [Walter Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, Old Testament Library, trans. John A. Baker, Philadelphia: Westminster, 1967, 2:46-47]

Whoa, Chas !!!!! Great looking kid!!! And a love child…er…well born on Valentine’s Day anyway…It looks like he’s training to be Pete Townshend’s understudy.

My beloved Tonto has a long suit in revelation parking and shopping! I’m still trying to get my believing up to work miracles when the bills come.

Actually, Mark – I start channeling Dilbert every time I watch Office Space…and God forbid word should get out that I often use a Jump-to-Conclusions-Mat when I’m in Doctrinal.

While talking to Nicodemus, Jesus spoke of the Spirit's work: John 3:8 NKJV The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. I like the note in The MacArthur Study Bible on this verse and thought it would go well with this thread: "3.8 The wind blows where it wishes. Jesus' point was that just as the wind cannot be controlled or understood by human beings but its effects can be witnessed, so also it is with the Holy Spirit. He cannot be controlled or understood, but the proof of His work is apparent. Where the Spirit works, there is undeniable and unmistakable evidence."

Between NotMatilda's Made-up Word(s) thread and Hammeroni's Vey Definitions thread – I can't stop thinking up stupid stuff. I've been speaking in puns like a house afire! So if anyone is game for more punishment – I thought I'd continue their fun idea with a thread for made up terms and titles…For openers – I came up with a few that are work related. Project Manglement – the execution of a plan – literally! Sabotage under excellent supervision. Degreed Position – job that requires bending over backwards for upper management. Degree of angle to bend over determined by immediate supervisor. System Anallist – a well organized method for identifying ar$$holes at work. Tag-you're-IT Department – group of PC savvy associates that talk you into fixing your computer problem yourself. Quasity Control – an effort made to ensure your activity resembles doing real work. Hunan Resources – listing of every decent Chinese Restaurant in a 50 mile radius of the office.

Yes – a real Bible scholar – that's pretty cool, Juan – getting to talk with Metzger. I have The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Roland E. Murphy…Here's a couple of excerpts from the "To the Reader" by Metzger at the front of the Bible: …Because no translation of the Bible is perfect or is acceptable to all groups of readers, and because discoveries of older manuscripts and further investigation of linguistic features of the text continue to become available, renderings of the Bible have proliferated…[page x] …In traditional Judaism and Christianity, the Bible has been more than a historical document to be preserved or a classic of literature to be cherished and admired; it is recognized as the unique record of God's dealings with people over the ages. The Old Testament sets forth the call of a special people to enter into covenant relation with the God of justice and steadfast love and to bring God's law to the nations. The New Testament records the life and work of Jesus Christ, the one in whom "the Word became flesh," as well as describes the rise and spread of the early Christian Church. The Bible carries its full message, not to those who regard it simply as a noble literary heritage of the past or who wish to use it to enhance political purposes and advance otherwise desirable goals, but to all persons and communities who read it so that they may discern and understand what God is saying to them. That message must not be disguised in phrases that are no longer clear, or hidden under words that have changed or lost their meaning; it must be presented in language that is direct and plain and meaningful to people today…[page xiii]

I think there is a distinction there. Some Bible scholars say there are three heavens: 1. The atmospheric heavens - that surrounds the earth. 2. The celestial heavens – the setting for the sun, moon, stars, planets, etc. 3. the heavenly realm – where God resides. I believe the reference here in Deuteronomy 10:14 "the heaven of heavens" is of the third category – the spiritual realm. Some believe that is what Paul referred to by the "third heaven" in II Corinthians 12…I think so too – and also think there is a reference to it as well in Ephesians 4:9,10 NIV 9 What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

I agree with that…And that's why I can say the same thing about my TWI experience. I am the culmination of all my experiences – both good and bad. And perhaps not all situations or experiences are either good or bad – but maybe it's the way I process them. Being a Christian the way I view my TWI years is as follows: sometimes God worked things out because of what somebody did [meaning myself and/or other person(s)]– and sometimes He worked things out in spite of what somebody [meaning myself and/or other person(s)] did. And sometimes things just didn't work out …After Geer's Patriarch epistle – I began realizing more and more that the TWI environment [many of their doctrines, practices, mentality, programs] was not very conducive to obeying God Almighty…not very God-friendly…it was more about revering TWI's interpretation of God and the Bible…living up to TWI's standards – not God's. When somebody says "this program will help you clear out the crap in your life." I ask who determines what is crap? When somebody says "this program is only for those who are mature or ready." I ask who determines when somebody is mature or ready? My point in all this is to give you the reason for my low opinion of Momentus or any reasonable facsimile. And that's all it is – my opinion…The Way Corps defined for me what was crap in my life…Now I will take responsibility for the decision to go in the Corps. I was such a doggone sap for TWI leadership telling me "you're Corps material, you've got potential, you don't want to let down God or His people – you need to go Corps," I figured I was mature enough and ready for it…Sorry if I came off harsh or hyper-critical – that's a mixture of a lot of cappuccino and mental baggage from the years when I let a cult run my life – so I don't take too well to anything that looks even remotely like how they did things.

I see what you're saying – but why does there have to be a cookie-cutter mentality about promoting growth or seeking the truth? One format or process works for everyone – or even a select few who are mature or ready. You said the experience was beneficial to you. Great. But you throw in "truth seeking" - - and spoke condescendingly – implying some people might not be ready or mature enough to handle this experience in their search for truth. The "scar tissue" from my TWI Way Corps years starts flaring up again. You don't need to defend your personal experiences here. But I will take issue with you when you imply some class, seminar, program, group, church, club, society, or dentists convention [in case there's any tooth seekers reading this] is the way to the truth reserved for the mature and spiritually ready. Let me ask you something – do they claim these principles, processes, etc. are right out of the Bible, or in any way represent it as a good Christian/Bible based program, seminar, whatever? If they don't – fine. Then we're in a debate over the validity of your personal experience with that – and I'm not gonna argue about that. But you indicated in your first post it was Christian based: I've had a few Momentus grads try to sell me on their class. Know some people who took it. And you say Vision Quest is similar to Momentus. So how is Vision Quest similar – or different - than Momentus? After awhile – the sales shtick for these quasi-Christian programs sounds the same to me - - "let's make a buck off the Bible."

Good point, Raf…and in the case of how top TWI leadership run things – they not only put God in a box for yah – they’re the only ones authorized to open the box…It is the Priesthood of the Box…I know of Jack-in-the-Box but don’t think TWI knows jack squat about a god in the box…I dunno…maybe it’s my fault - - perhaps I should review the chapter Are You Limiting the Box?

Great thread, LikeAnEagle – and great post on Romans 8 - one of my favorite books of the Bible - and a very appropriate passage for this thread! I love going over old TWI stuff and everybody thinking out loud on it. Once again I come to a mystery that frustrates my technical mind – because I always want to know how stuff works. How does God work in the world… in our lives? The Bible really doesn't say anything about how He does – it just simply asserts that He does…I was reading a couple of passages [shown below] where Jesus talks about Himself, the Father and the Spirit working in our lives. If I had to point out a "great principle" in these passages – I would have to say it's obedience to God's commands [like loving one another], remaining faithful to Him. John 14:15-27 NIV 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 15:1-17 NIV 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

I don't think it's a matter of someone being mature enough or ready for it – just a glutton for punishment. Amazing how people get suckered into taking a seminar - - and PAYING for this abuse - - allowing egotistical blind-guides to run roughshod all over their heads. Caribousam – you seem like an okay Christian to me – and I'm not meaning to come down on you or argue with you over how beneficial the experience was for you. But how people deal with an experience is different for everyone – and that doesn't necessarily justify the seminar… My tendency is to look at some "self improvement" seminars as really subjecting oneself to a makeover by psychiatrist-wannabes - it's an attempt to have oneself improved under the direction of other people. I'm not saying they had a brainstorming session with the top agenda being: How can we artificially duplicate the process of change and growth that's shown in the Bible for fun and profit. They probably had good intentions but I'm more comfortable and confident with the simple things that Jesus said to do. Like the change and growth through introspection and response to His teaching [Matthew 7:1-5, 21-27]. Or in humility taking the initiative to reconcile a difference with a brother [Matthew 5:23,24; 18:15]. These are SELF-directed processes.

The Re-Nude Mind – Recalling the naked women in the Motor Coach. Sonship Rights – The privilege of VPW's successor to have any woman in the kingdom. Jackie Gleason – The inspiration for Chris Geer to work his way up from bus driver to having his own show.

WordWolf and Raf - great analysis of the Great Principle. Thanks! Then there's the passage of Balaam having a conversation with his donkey. It says the Lord opened the donkey's mouth in verse 28. I certainly can't explain how God did that – and I don't think it will fit into the Great Principle formula either. Numbers 22: 24-31 NIV 24 Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again. 26 Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. 28 Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?" 29 Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now." 30 The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said. 31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell face down. …Thinking about one of VPW's studies in the Blue Book - Are You Limiting God? …My answer to his "question" would be – you definitely have a limited concept of God if you think you can reduce Him to manageable proportions by squeezing Him into PFAL's rules and formulas.

Discerning of Spirits – The ability to know if that's Drambui in your glass by just one sip. Accuracy of discernment will diminish over extended drinking binges – then it really doesn't matter what's in your glass – just keep it coming. Casting out Spirits – the miraculous power to bring back up into the senses realm the liquor you just poured down your throat.

Hey, wanna get blessed – you're about to be asked to give or do something. I'm believing God for financial abundance – "I expect you to give me some money."

That’s a funny article, Tonto… and I’m glad you posted it - “giant spiders” and methamphetamine addicts brings up a related issue – besides what comes out of your nose – it’s just as important what you put IN your nose.

Yeah, Oak - I guess he ignored the part in Genesis 3 – after Adam and Eve sinned – they both HEARD God walking in the Garden, hid from Him and then even had a CONVERSATION with Him about what just happened.

Expert witness Spider-Man takes the stand: "Your Honor, being a superhero with amazing powers I have seen my fair share of strange things throughout my career. I've swung from rooftops chasing a half-crazed green goblin that flew through the air on a jet wing. I've dangled off the side of a skyscraper duking it out with a mad scientist that had long metal tentacles coming out of his back…But I ain't NEVER seen spiders come out of somebody's nose - - not even my own."

I've never given this much thought after leaving TWI – but I have a tendency now to avoid strict definitions of how God works in our minds. I'm very technical minded and used to love TWI's formulas and explanations of how spiritual things work…I'm not really going anywhere with this…just thinking out loud…I lean towards a more unified view of the spiritual and physical realm – not so much that there's a huge chasm separating the two – but perhaps they're of the same "stuff" but having distinct properties - or instead of saying there's two categories [spiritual and physical] - what if it's all one thing? And the stuff that isn't perceived by my five senses - is also physical [having specific properties and occupying definite dimensions] - it's just not registering on my limited sensors. …Instead of "being spiritual" at certain times in certain situations – like there's a switch to turn on and off – I think everything we do has something "spiritual" about it – I'm just thinking of passages that tell us to do whatever we do to the Glory of God, work heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men, and to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. …Maybe hiding the Word in my heart isn't so much about opening a window in my understanding so I can peak into a hidden realm – maybe it's taking off the blinders to become aware of how I am surrounded by…immersed in…a part of God's creation…Maybe the spiritual life is a whole lot simpler than we think…Maybe realizing more and more how everything we think, say and do really does matter spiritually – puts us more in touch with reality.

Well…you could always count on some folks there for having the same amazing in depth spiritual perception and awareness as Sergeant Schultz, “I see nothing!”

Hey, is that one of those gosh-awful-long-wordy-definitions by VPW…let me see if I remember how it went – I know I’m gonna goof it up – especially since I used to stick a silly phrase in there [noted in boldface inside brackets]: “God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind [which is now your mind] and becomes manifested in the sense realm as you act.”

Besides their great sound another thing I remember about a Moody Blues concert – back around 1972 at Madison Square Garden – was that I sat still – enthralled by their music for the entire show. I wasn’t even stoned…I just sat there…think I was totally lost in their music. I’ve never had an experience like that ever again…Wonderfully strange…the effect their performance had on me. Speaking of King Crimson I had an album of theirs – it had a strange song that I really liked…think it was called “Hi Ho” or was that a line in the song?...Don’t know…probably because I usually was stoned listening to their stuff .

Tonto and I enjoyed Gilbert’s company when he came as a Lightbearer to our town…One of our favorite stories he told us – – whenever his dad got lost while driving he’d say in a sing-song fashion, “Polly rides…Polly rides so sweet.”