T-Bone

You know…I think Sunesis' post really hit the heart of the issue – for the Christian there is no need to doubt the sufficiency of Scripture or the sufficiency of what God has provided for us in Christ. II Peter 1:19-21 NASB 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. The tendency I see with personal prophecy and some Charismatic groups is the preference they give to "operating the spirit" over Scripture – eventually re-defining passages to fit their theology. And the more I hear about the allowances one has to make, and the possibility of deception from one's own heart or an unholy spirit – the more I wonder what the attraction is to it – this thinking casts doubt on the sufficiency of Scripture and the power of God. I don't find verses making excuses or explaining why something didn't work or didn't work out quite right, or believers experiencing hit-and-miss with any of the miracles, revelations, healings, prophecies, etc. mentioned in the Bible. I think that's one of the criteria for determining what's truly from God – even nowadays - is that when God does something – it's perfect - and there's no question about whether or not it's from God.

I think it's wise to err on the side of caution. If Scripture does not indicate a change in the standard for prophecy then why assume there's been a change? Why assume God has lowered the bar on anything? In reading Romans - it doesn't appear that God lowered His standard of righteousness or obedience. Romans 5:17-21; NASB 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:1, 2, 13-16 NASB 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 7:6 NASB 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 8:3, 4 NASB 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rather than getting soft on His moral law so we could slip in under the bar and be accepted of Him – He gave His grace and gift of righteousness, which empowers us to truly serve Him…to obey Him. Not by our own strength or because He cuts us a bunch of slack – but through HIS strength we serve to follow HIS standards. I would have to ask – is that the Spirit of God moving you to do so? How do you know? And what do you mean by "check in with Him all the time"?...Alright so - you think you've spotted a false prophecy by noting they're recommending a divorce – what if they recommend someone marry a specific person?...I don't know – there's so many things here that just invite confusion and deception – and don't refer to a biblical standard…some bold assumptions really… ...How is any of this confusion profitable to the church? I know from experience how TWI is just a world of confusion and deception from setting their own standards of truth and practice and it looks to me like the reason for CES being in a mess. You still haven't convinced me that it is the same thing as the prophecy of Bible times. II Peter 1:20 leaves no room for any confusion, assumptions or what have you - when it says, "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will" - people did not decide on the message or have practice sessions - it did not originate from human effort. But as it says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." A definition of prophet and prophecy is given in The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill C. Tenney, Volume 4, pages 875 & 876, under Prophets, and Prophecy: "…Fuller light on the meaning of the word is evident from its second occurrence [Exodus 7:1]…after Moses declared that his lack of eloquence would make it impossible for him to act as God's representative before Pharaoh. God had said that He would appoint Moses' brother Aaron, who was a good speaker, to accompany him…The Lord said, "he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God" [Exodus 4:16]. This idea is summarized in the words, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet'" [Exodus 7:1]. This passage indicates clearly that the word prophet means one who passes on a message from a god…[page 875] …In the NT, as in the OT, a prophet was one who received his message directly from God. As the Bible neared completion and the existence of God's written Word in its entirety made direct communication no longer necessary, it became possible to use the term in the extended sense of one who receives his message from God through the written Word and then passes it on to God's people for "up-building and encouragement and consolation" …" [page 876] End of excerpt I think your reference to I Thessalonians 5:20 "do not despise prophetic utterances" may largely fall into the written Word category. The MacArthur Study Bible notes on this verse: "5:20 prophetic utterances. This phrase can refer to a spoken revelation from God [cf. Acts 11:27, 28; I Timothy 1:18; 4:14], but most often refers to the written word of Scripture [cf. Matthew 13:14; II Peter 1:19-21; Revelation 1:3; 22:7,10,18,19]. These "prophetic utterances" are authoritative messages from God through a well-recognized spokesman for God that, because of their divine origin, are not to be treated lightly. When God's Word is preached or read, it is to be received with great seriousness."

Wow, Cynic – thanks a bunch for those links! I definitely enjoyed them – I’ll have to get Divine Guidance for Ordinary Christians by James Petty. The OPC link has some great resources on it…good stuff…thanks again!

I've started this thread after thinking about some of the discussions on CES threads…and perhaps The Great Principle thread by LikeAnEagle. With posts about prophecy, how God works in people, TWI's "Great Principle," guidance, and things like that – I've been remembering how these were big issues with me around the time I left TWI. Being a Christian these things were important to me [and still are] in terms of understanding their place in my decision-making process. I thought it may be interesting to discuss some ideas from a book [or at least start out discussing…I know how threads go ] I read shortly after leaving TWI – and consider it to be one of the most helpful books to my Christian walk. The book is Decision Making & the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson, 1980, Multnomah Press. Traditional view on principles of decision-making presented in the book: For each of our decisions God has a perfect plan or will and the goal of the believer is to discover God's individual will and make decisions in accordance with it. The way to figure out God's individual will for them is by awareness of inner perceptions and outward signs. Validating this guidance system is an inner sense of peace and successful results from their decision. Alternative view on principles of decision-making presented in the book: The expression "the will of God" is used in the Bible in two ways: God's sovereign will is His secret plan to determine what happens and God's moral will which consists of the revealed commands in the Bible. The Bible indicates nothing of an "individual will" governing each decision we make. In all decisions, the believer should humbly submit in advance to the outworking of God's sovereign will as it touches each decision and does not exclude the need for planning on our part. Circumstances define the context of the decision and must be weighed by wisdom – not read as a "road sign" to God's "individual will for you." "Open doors" are God-given opportunities for service not specific guidance from God requiring one to enter. The authors point out difficulties of the traditional view of decision-making: Christians usually abandon the process on "minor" decisions. Believing there is only one correct choice generates anxiety and tends to promote rash decisions. Certainty of finding God's individual will is impossible without an objective source of knowledge, it fosters irresponsible decisions based on "God told me to do that," and lets circumstances dictate decisions. When I first read the book – the only difficulty I had with their alternative view of decision-making was learning to think for myself – coming out of a group that did everything in its power to either immobilize, manipulate or control my thinking. After I read their book some passages they pointed out – intrigued me because it indicated a process of thought behind the believer's decisions. Acts 6:2,3 NASB 2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. 3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. Acts 15:25-29 NASB 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." Romans 14:5 NASB One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. I Thessalonians 3:1-7 NASB 1 Therefore when we could endure it no longer, we thought it best to be left behind at Athens alone, 2 and we sent Timothy, our brother and God's fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you as to your faith, 3 so that no one would be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this. 4 For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain. 6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you, 7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith;

…and on the music front… Jam Session – time-frame allotted to cramming all the equipment of a five piece garage band into a 89 Geo Metro. Orca-straight – to compose a musical piece for the sole purpose of sobering up a drunken Killer Whale. Metro-gnome – The dwarf responsible for keeping mass transit systems running on time. Socks-a-phone – A pat answer typically given to a technically challenging musical question -and refers to calling on one of the most qualified musicians at GSC. Typical usage, Question: "What alternate tuning should I use so my guitar will sound like a Mack Truck when I play an open E Chord?" Answer: "I dunno…give Socks-a-phone." Wah-wah Peddle – the selling of fine whines to guitarists. Base Guitar – an instrument of low value, with inferior properties and the most commonly used implement for composing songs of treachery, cruelty and greed. Speaking in Drums – A miraculous language believed to have been given to drummers to fill the long hours of life on the road. Controversy surrounds the phenomena - a few drum scholars believe it was a cymbal of the devil's snare and is no longer practiced – while others say it is reserved for some future time – when the roll is called up yonder.

I don't see it as a mix up of Agabus' message to Paul. The way it is portrayed in Acts 21 it looks to me like the Jews incited a riot and brought false charges against Paul. And taking Agabus' words at face value – he indicated the Jews would be the ones to deliver Paul into the custody of the Gentiles. Note how it was the Jews who instigated the riot, beat him, and wanted to kill him: Acts 21:10,11, 27-33 NASB 10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" 27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple. 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut. 31 While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion. 32 At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul. 33 Then the commander came up and took hold of him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains; and he began asking who he was and what he had done. Maybe Gregg is a little mixed up on how true prophecy worked in the Bible. In my opinion Agabus was stating who really was behind Paul's arrest. Perhaps similar to Peter saying to the Jews about Jesus, "YOU nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." Acts 2:22,23 NASB 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. After all it was the chief priests and elders that persuaded the crowds to ask Pilate for Barabbas to be freed and to put Jesus to death [Matthew 27:15-26].It appears Agabus foretelling of the arrest of Paul in Acts 21 and Peter speaking of the crucifixion of Jesus in Acts 2 – do indeed show who really were the guilty parties even though other hands did the actual dirty work. …I think there's a big issue with Gregg F's theory – because there is no Scriptural basis for it – and it opens the door for error, confusion, and spiritual deception to sneak in. If a message is truly from God – how can there be error in it? What about the high standard of accountability set forth in the Bible? Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NASB 20 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' 21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Now how does the standard of prophecy in the above passage compare to ever-adaptable-flexible-personal prophecy? One could claim the part of the prophecy that didn't come to pass was the little part of the message that got mixed up. I recall people in TWI saying "Oh the revelation can change if the circumstances change or your believing changes." Where is that in the Bible? Sorry to be so blunt but it just looks to me like people are lowering God's standards to elevate what they do as something on par with Scripture. So what's going to be the criteria for determining what's from God and what's from an overactive imagination or from an unholy spirit? Who is going to make that call...and who says that they're right? Me personally, I'm not going to claim that anything coming out of my mouth is from God. Especially so because I hold such a high opinion of the Bible – a book that claims the contents within came by prophecy. II Peter 1:20, 21 NASB 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

A big happy birthday to yah, Dot Matrix!!!!!!

It's not nice to put down someone's religion – unless their religion happens to be filled with down...well...technically if their religion was filled with down you couldn't put any more down in it...Maybe that's why they're beating and screaming at the pillow - make room for more down...Oh never mind...I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it...unless of course that was my pillow they're beating...And another thing - after having spiders on the witness stand - what self-respecting attorney would want to handle the Pillow Case?

Homer Simpson would say "that's a sexual in-your-end dohhh!!!" :o

Wow – those are all great, Belle – but these really spoke to my heart! Thanks! I like all the car ones, everybody – thanks. And obviously I love any work references – anything that takes a stab at the system, man - is cool in my book…Really everyone had good stuff here – please continue – I just wanted to express my enjoyment of this thread and show my appreciation. I would like to thank all the little people – starting with that little kid on the left with the big hat and suspenders…I know what you’re thinking “This guy is full of himself” – while that’s true please keep in mind I’m only a half-pint bottle [just look at my avatar] .

…That is so 22 posts ago…

Cool…it looks like a conspiracy in the making…I like it…keep up the good work, ladies – I’m recommending you both for a raise and promotion…Of course your supervisors are gonna ask just who the he11 I am.

…and on the medical front… See-sick – self-induced nausea by staring at ugly too long Moe-shun Sickness – withdrawal symptoms after swearing off the Three Stooges BlueCross BlueShield – psychiatric code for a depressed Christian Police Officer Malpractice Suit – official uniform of a quack Post Traumatic Stress Disorder – intense psychological pressure that comes from realizing what you posted on a thread makes absolutely no sense.

Those are great - thanks Abigail !

I covered this some in my post # 124 of Honest Discussion of the Trinity – which I quoted below – not sure if it helps. I'm not sure what the unforgivable sin was – but think it may have something to do with when Jesus walked the earth - noting that "Son of Man" refers to His humanity - and it was a time of tremendous undeniable display of the power of God by Him. To think of Him as an ordinary person may have been forgivable - since He was human and looked like a common man - but the obvious display of the Holy Spirit's power was undeniably attributable to God. There has never been a time since then of all the miracles and healings that He performed...Perhaps it was an unforgivable sin in that the evidence of the power of the Spirit was undeniable.

It seems to me that adding “personal” does lend it some credibility…and the other thing I have trouble with is believing that this personal prophecy practiced today is the same thing as the occurrences you mentioned in the Bible…Also I have a hard time accepting Gregg F’s theory of sometimes the holy message gets messed up before it leaves the prophet’s mouth – where is that in the Bible? It doesn’t appear they had that problem in the Bible. I think that opens the door for a lot of guesswork – and that also makes me wonder – how come God has such a hard time nowadays getting the right message out? If “what you speak remains God’s business,” that pretty much cinches it – whatever is said is of God - right? Forgive me if I sound skeptical…but I am…been burned too many times by stuff like this with TWI. Maybe it’s just me – but I don’t really understand what the purpose of personal prophecy is…and really have a hard time believing it’s credible.

That’s okay – never mind…I just thought you’d mention a couple of verses…didn’t expect a doctrinal thesis.

Keys to Biblical Research – keys to the liquor cabinets. Rightly dividing the Word – making a conscious effort to interpret the Bible in accordance with TWI doctrine. You can't go beyond what you're taught – old Jedi-mind trick to immobilize another person's critical and creative thinking processes. Also referred to as "intellectual hobbling" by WordWolf.

I’m just curious - what’s the scriptural reference(s) that show personal prophecy provides direction? Do you view personal prophecy as having a big influence on your decision-making process?

I think being cautious and having forethought is a smart way to live – and believe that is encouraged in the Scriptures. Proverbs 14:15 NIV A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. Proverbs 22:3 NIV A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it. Luke 14:31,32 NIV 31 "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. Life can be treacherous at times – and on many endeavors a person would be foolhardy to ignore looking down the road or to assess risks – to consider options, alternative actions, consequences of different actions, etc.

The law of believing – rules for using the Force The law of giving and receiving – as you give I receive The law of the land – at HQ check with the board of trustees…everywhere else check with the local, state, and government officials The law of diminishing returns – a "rule" of human nature…increasing the influence and control that a cult exerts on its followers decreases the number of people who want to come back to it.

Funny…you both have stumbled onto a big secret at GSC…That exquisite cup of Joe is brewed right here – and just like this thread – is the reason people join or leave GSC .

Yikes!!!!!! Depart from me Jesus…thought you were someone else…I’d like to remain whole…not be eaten whole.

Welcome to Grease Spot Café, Wanderer! Glad you had enough sense to quit and that you wandered our way – let me buy the first round of cappuccino.

Had fun reading all these...thanks all! You know I have to ask...What would Jesus chew?