T-Bone

Belated happy birthday, LindyHopper…uhm…I know it was your birthday and all…but if you happen to have any leftover apple crisp – it would really bless me to have some to go with my cappuccino.

Yes – I do see what you mean about the author "cutting off ways of hearing from God" - - and I do think it IS intentional…And that's probably where you and I differ – I happen to agree with the authors I've cited thus far. It's all a matter of perspective – and that's okay…Threads are great for exploring ideas. Sometimes threads go all over the map – and that's cool. Yah never know – thinking out loud is a great catalyst. Here's where I'm coming from: I am a Christian and tend to take a conservative approach on things. And on this particular issue [decision-making and the will of God] I've tried to figure out what the Bible shows to be a typical decision-making process for a Christian. I could be wrong on this – and nothing is etched in stone for me – but I have adopted more stringent standards for allowing anything to alter my beliefs. And I'm not saying my thought process is intellectually superior to anyone else's – I'm just trying to do a better job of processing things than when I was in TWI. While in TWI – I was not very discriminating in what I bought into – as long as it agreed with TWI doctrine – whether it was somebody's explanation of a verse or trying to determine the "first thought" I had in a situation because that was "revelation", or listening to someone brag on how God showed them where they should live or what they should do…So the following Scripture is why I hold to a conservative approach on "guidance" or hearing from God. I do agree with you on "everyone has a little spark of the divine." Even after the fall of Adam and Eve, man still retained the image of God – although now it's…distorted…obscured…or something. Genesis 9:6 NASB Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. As far as hearing from God – I am doubtful of people's references to "impressions" from God, or saying "God led me to do this" or the personal prophecy stuff because I don't think there's sufficient scriptural evidence for them, and don't think it would be subject to such a high "failure rate" [their revelation doesn't pan out] if it was from God. In my opinion God has a very high standard set for quality control of anything He's behind – PERFECTION. It appears to me to be from their own imagination, wishful thinking and presumptuous attitude on how God should work. I lean towards the idea that you can't trust people when it comes to spiritual matters because of verses like: Jeremiah 10:23 NASB I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. Jeremiah 17:9 NASB The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? II Corinthians 10:5 NASB We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, Colossians 2:8 NASB See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. I would also like to add – I am not saying God never gives revelation or special guidance or provides a sign. It's not my place to set limits on what God Almighty can or cannot do. I do believe He does things like that. In my opinion that's not the norm and think it's presumptuous to expect that God does so because I see it as necessary. Because He is God and if there's something He really has to tell me or wants me to do - I figure He'll have no problem getting His message to me…I do believe God works in me somehow – I can't explain it – it's a totally subjective thing. But I've never heard an audible voice – or a voice in my head like Martin Short in Inner Space – never got a vision – never seen an out-and-out stupendous miracle like someone raised from the dead…If other people have – great! I'm just not going to base my faith on someone else's experience. I did enough of that in TWI – where they'd make a mountainous-miracle out of a molehill.

Sorry about that, Cman. Sometimes it’s challenging to have a “conversation” on a thread since we’re not face-to-face or in real time. Guess my approach is sort of hit-or-miss sometimes. So it becomes “are you saying this?” or “I think you mean that” or "that makes me think of this", etc...Hopefully - we eventually figure out what each other is saying.

Tape pork rinds onto the microphone.

Cman, I think I get what you're saying about, "the wisdom that confounds the wise, when it comes to spiritual matters. And not to discard this thinking but to flow along with it. That which only the Spirit can show you is what can be obscured by critical and creative thinking also I believe. But again I say that it will also flow with it." However, I don't think the Bible pits critical and creative thinking against spiritual matters. I tend to think that if God was going to design a thought processing system like our brains He would make it compatible with the thoughts He'd like us to process. I don't think the Bible makes the Christian life one of faith versus reason. How would He get His message to the unsaved? Romans 10:17 NASB So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Hearing the word of Christ and accepting those words as true – necessitates the person understands the message by their use of reason. In Isaiah a passage shows God appealing to a sinner's reason: Isaiah 1:18 NASB "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool." If one wants to make an argument of spiritual matters being pitted against anything – I think a better case could be made of faith versus sight: II Corinthians 5:7 NASB …for we walk by faith, not by sight. I believe God designed the human brain – and doesn't condemn our gaining knowledge and wisdom – since that appears to be a large part of its function – and for the Christian, the mind appears to be the means for loving God. Matthew 22:37 NASB And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." I think VPW really confused things by teaching that there was such a HUGE separation of "spiritual knowledge" from our reason. In one of his books he said something to the effect that in the kingdom of God – the Word and not reason have first place – or something like that. Anyway it was his goofy ideas like that one that laid the groundwork for selling people on some of his nonsense like the law-of-believing …I think when the Bible condemns knowledge or wisdom it is of the kind that opposes God: II Corinthians 10:5 NASB We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, I think we're probably saying similar things - with you saying we're to "flow with it" - in other words not opposing God with our thinking process - I guess - I don't know - I don't want to put words in your mouth... It proves to be a fascinating study in Proverbs if you take note how much of a strong moral overtone wisdom carries in the context of where it's mentioned. I see that as an emphasis more on the moral aspect of God's wisdom rather than trying to say it is intellectually superior or that it is different in some way from regular ol' wisdom. Proverbs 9:10 NASB The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Certainly the Spirit of God provides assistance in our understanding deepening as we study, reflect and apply Scripture – there's lots of verses that mention that.

Cman, thanks for your thoughtful response…I wouldn't put TWI on the "following Scripture" side of this decision-making and the will of God issue. In my opinion TWI and CES exhibit a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture...The John 16 passage you cited hits me as referring to the Spirit guiding Christians into an understanding of Scripture. I think Scripture explains how it worked until the entire Bible was written: II Peter 1:21 NASB For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by, "how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit?" That sort of reminds me of VPW's saying, "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Which I think short-changes the capabilities of one of God's most amazing designs – the human brain – with the potential for powerful critical thinking and creative thinking functions. Thinking about the alternative view of decision-making mentioned in my first post - I don't think there would be much of a difference in the decision-making process of a Christian and a non-Christian- except for any issues that would touch on matters of faith of course. I imagine both would be wise to consider all the items that would be touched by a decision – similar to what Oakspear listed earlier in post # 4. Maxson & Friesen adapt the traditional view of decision-making in a humorous scenario about Adam and Eve in Genesis. Eve comes to Adam and says, "I'd really like to know what God's will is for us concerning dinner tonight. Would you go ask Him?" Adam responds, "He said we could have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree." Eve: "I just want to be in the center of God's will – would you be a dear and go check with Him." A little while later Adam returns. Eve: "Well – what did He say? What should we have for dinner tonight?" Adam: "He said the same thing He told us the first time – we can have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree." I really don’t see the alternative view of decision-making as something that limits or boxes in a Christian. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite – and compared to the traditional view would say that is more a description of the traditional view that puts constraints on one’s personal preferences, freedom of choice, critical thinking, and creative thinking. That’s what I think the adaptation of Adam and Eve/traditional view of decision-making highlights. And as funny as the above scenario sounds – I think that is exactly how some Christians make a lot of decisions in life.

This stuff is way too cool!!!!! I love that list, Greasy Tech! I’ve copied that to my hard drive. And Quiet Thinker, I’d love to see the one you have…Man oh man, this stuff is more challenging than chewing gum and walking – which I’m believing to pull off sometime this year.

Not sure if I follow you there, Cman. I really don’t care what direction the discussion goes – but let me clarify what I was thinking when I started it. The context was decision-making and the will of God – an issue which I think is of some importance to Christians. In my opinion, some of the incidents and beliefs expressed on the CES threads indicate a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture. But that’s just my opinion. But anyway…like I said – I don’t care where this discussion goes – I enjoy everyone’s input…you never know where some of these threads wind up – it’s an open forum and anything goes. Could you be more specific with what you meant by, “I'm not trying to negate what this fellow believes. Just point out that he is putting limits on what can be received. Which a lot of people do. I have no problem with that. But personally I won't limit what can be received from any direction. At least I try not to.” Also, I’m puzzled by your statement, “Lies will eventually reveal truth.” Would you elaborate on how that works.

It doesn’t hit me that way at all…it appears to me that Edwards encouraged thinking – some of those things sounded like things that Oakspear mentioned on what to consider in the decision-making process [like considering “…their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them.”].

Jonathan Edwards is considered by many to be one of America's greatest theologians. Both 131 Christians Everyone Should Know from the Editors of Christian History Magazine and Nelson's New Christian Dictionary, editor George Thomas Kurian - mention his work as a contributing factor in the Great Awakening [1739-1741]. And Yale University says in his biography, "In 1734-1735, Edwards oversaw some of the initial stirrings of the First Great Awakening. He gained international fame as a revivalist and "theologian of the heart" after publishing A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God (1738), which described the awakening in his church and served as an empirical model for American and British revivalists alike. The widespread revivals of the 1730's and 1740's stimulated one of the two most fruitful periods for Edwards' writings…"http://edwards.yale.edu/about-edwards/biography/ I think some of his comments made around the time of the Great Awakening found in Edwards' "Thoughts on the Revival of Religion in New England," are quite relevant in a discussion about decision-making and guidance. The following excerpts are from The Works of Jonathan Edwards, 2 Volumes, Banner of Truth, 1974 edition, editor Edward Hickman, 1:404, 405: "One erroneous principle, than which scarce any has proved more mischievous to the present glorious work of God, is a notion that it is God's manner in these days, to guide his saints, at least some that are more eminent, by inspiration, or immediate revelation. They suppose he makes known to them what shall come to pass hereafter, or what it is his will that they should do, by impressions made upon their minds, either with or without texts of Scripture; whereby something is made known to them, that is not taught in the Scripture. By such a notion the devil has a great door opened for him; and if once this opinion should come to be fully yielded to, and established in the church of God, Satan would have opportunity thereby to set up himself as the guide and oracle of God's people, and to have his word regarded as their infallible rule, and so lead them where he would, and to introduce what he pleased, and soon to bring the Bible into neglect and contempt. Late experience, in some instances, has shown that the tendency of this notion is to cause persons to esteem the Bible as in a great measure useless… …Some that follow impulses and impressions indulge a notion, that they do no other than follow the guidance of God's word, because the impression is made with a text of Scripture that comes to mind. But they take the text as it is impressed on their minds, and improve it as a new revelation to all intents and purposes…[page 404] …The leading of the Spirit which God gives his children, and which is peculiar to them, is that teaching them his statutes, and causing them to understand the way of his precepts, which the psalmist so very often prays for, especially in the 119th Psalm; and not in giving them new statutes and new precepts. He graciously gives them eyes to see, and ears to hear, and hearts to understand; he causes them to understand the fear of the Lord, and so "brings the blind by a way they knew not, and leads them in paths that they had not known, and makes darkness light before them, and crooked paths straight." So the assistance of the Spirit in praying and preaching seems by some to have been greatly misunderstood, and they have sought after a miraculous assistance of inspiration, by the immediate suggesting of words to them, by such gifts and influences of the Spirit, in praying and teaching, as the apostle speaks of, I Corinthians 14:14, 26. [which many natural men had in those days,] instead of a gracious holy assistance of the Spirit of God, which is the far more excellent way; [as I Corinthians 12:31 and 13:1] the gracious and most excellent assistance of the Spirit of God is not by immediately suggesting words to the apprehension, which may be with a cold, dead heart; but by warming the heart, and filling it with a great sense of things to be spoken, and with holy affections, that these may suggest words. Thus indeed the Spirit of God may be said, indirectly and mediately, to suggest words to us, to indite our petitions for us, and to teach the preacher what to say; he fills the heart, and that fills the mouth… …But, to return to the head of impressions and immediate revelations; many lay themselves open to a delusion by expecting direction from heaven in this way, and waiting for it. In such a case it is easy for persons to imagine that they have it. They are perhaps at a loss concerning something, undetermined what they shall do, or what course they shall take in some affair; and they pray to God to direct them, and make known to them his mind and will; and then, instead of expecting to be directed, by being assisted in considering the rules of God's word, his providence, and their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them, they are waiting for some secret immediate influence, unaccountably swaying their minds, and turning their thoughts or inclinations that way in which God would have them to go. And secondly, they are greatly exposed to be deceived by their own imaginations; for such an expectation awakens and quickens the imagination; and oftentimes is called an uncommon impression, that is no such thing; and they ascribe that to the agency of some invisible being, which is owing only to themselves…" [page 405] End of excerpts

Thanks, LikeanEagle!

Wow, Socks – I love that – hilarious and right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And to put the Jonnie-Cochran-spin on it – if you made the peg fit – you are a TWIt.

Leaving TWI re-started my personal growth. One of the things I learned from my bad/evil/difficult experiences with that group is that we really shouldn't put our trust in people – when it comes to personal growth or remaining faithful to God...I'm also into discussing experiences with religious groups…I personally think it may benefit you to re-think stuff about Momentus – maybe sharpen up your critical thinking skills ["To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs" as you put it]. Reading these links provided by WordWolf, Hammeroni, and Rich is very disturbing. And looking at some other links like 1Broken1's post # 21 – checking out the Association for Christian Character Development. http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/2 I see that Momentus now re-appears as Breakthrough. [Also – why the name change? Did anyone cover that?] The excerpts [in bold red] below are from this link http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/345 Breakthrough (formerly Momentus): the four-day breakthrough training gives participants the opportunity to discover and realign the belief systems governing their lives. It serves to help participants experience a transformation in their ability to love others as Christ loves them while liberating their consciences to fulfill God's unique purposes for them with freedom, passion, and power. Specific objectives include discerning and integrating feedback from others; opening new resources for communicating; overcoming bitterness and other relational blocks and reaching forgiveness; releasing creativity; connecting vitally with what one values most; expressing love in a way that is actually experienced by others; appreciating differing points of view; and becoming internally motivated to act powerfully from one's vision of a life worth living. And this http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/48 is the source of the excerpts below: How Do We Determine Our Way? We are still left with the question, "What is His way?" The signposts along the way are often ambiguous and open to divergent interpretation. God, however, provides us with at least three different compasses to assist us in arriving at our calling: our unique gifting, our unique past, and our unique relationships. He has specially gifted each of us, and these gifts are an integral part of our calling to love God and others. And while our past by no means determines our future, it is a potent source for discovering it. Our relationships with others form the crucible in which God refines our character. Further, others in our lives are, by God's design, to be the recipient of the fruit of our gifts. End of excerpts from website That's right -they don't claim they've cornered the market on truth – but they assert God provides three different compasses – and though signposts along your journey may be ambiguous or open to divergent interpretations they'll be more than happy to take your money and tell you what it all means. I see this stuff as being like those get-rich-quick books. The only ones who get anything from this stuff are the people selling this stuff. Do people really believe there's a get-spiritual-quick-program, or some transforming seminar? In my opinion, the only growth they accelerate is that of the ego. Is it so disappointing if all we get out of Christianity is Christ? Colossians 2:3 does say in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. …How does a Christian grow and become fruitful? I don't think it can be by any artificial process directed by man or by any shortcuts – not true Christian growth. A Christian's growth is something deeply personal and according to the following passage is a dynamic process of being faithful to Jesus Christ - and the Father, as the Master Gardener, is the only one qualified to remove the things that keep us from bearing fruit. John 15: 1-5 NASB 1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Good to hear back from you, Estimated Prophet. Sorry to hear about your having technical problems – can't help yah there, Bro' – I mean to say – I'm known for hacking into computer systems…but that's with a hacksaw…that's all I know to do with these darn things when they get uppity. I respect your disagreeing with some scholars' comments on I Thessalonians 5:20. I'll throw another one at you in a moment – but just wanted to say I like hearing other viewpoints myself – may not always agree with them – but it's fun to track their reasoning on a topic. And there's many things in the Bible that I don't think can be nailed down – with a definitive answer. Don't get me wrong – I love studying the Bible too and reading commentaries and books on theology – but it's a good thing I don't make a living writing books on theology – there's so much I don't understand – I'd have to change to a penname like Guesstimating Theologian…Anyway one of the unsettled issues for me is the manifestations of the Spirit – whether or not they're for today's Church. Which just about brings me to another theologian's book – but before I cite him I'd like to invite you to the Doctrinal forum – where discussions like this belong [GSC folks, please bear with me on some more doctrinal details here]…[you know - I started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God – some of my inspiration for that thread came from discussions here on CES and personal prophecy.] The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881. In my opinion the author presents a fairly balanced view: "…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines… …Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878] …In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena… …In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881] End of excerpts That is more or less where I'm at on this issue. I hold to a reserved approach. I see legitimate points on both sides – and figure God is in charge and will do what He pleases with or without my feeble attempts of helping Him out. Yes, we should "examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" as I Thessalonians 5:21 says – but I also want to point out a logical flow into the next verse [verse 22], "abstain from every form of evil." As a Christian, God expects me to examine everything carefully – to embrace what is good and to shun anything evil. Romans 14: 5 tells us "…Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." …I'm not trying to be disrespectful or give you a hard time with all this. It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. I think this falls into the category of what God says I should shun. I remain unconvinced that it's something from the Holy Spirit. While I agree with the sentiment to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace I would also add that the unity it refers to is FROM the Spirit – it is something originating from God – not legislated by leadership, or at the expense of truth, or agreeing not to disagree. The impression that I get of CES from comments on these threads is the similarity of CES leadership to TWI leadership – where people are expendable, and the role of leadership becomes more a status symbol of achieving super-spirituality, a royal priesthood. Though words may paint up this brand of leadership as a humble position of service - in practice it plays out as a position of power and influence, supported and served by those who rank lower in this hierarchy of human design.

I have a VERY VIVID memory of a Corps Night teaching where LCM referred to the Special Olympics athletes as “freaks of nature.” It really chaps my hide to think about that now – and even back then his statement didn’t sit right with me.

I would have to ask what is the goal of the training/education and who is the target audience?...And just because Christ is mentioned frequently doesn't necessarily make something Christian. Jesus Christ is mentioned quite frequently in PFAL but that was mere window dressing – it's indeed mystifying how a student can sit through the PFAL Class hearing Christ's name so much and yet life down the road for the grad is one of TWI leadership taking the place of the absent Christ. Paul did warn Christians of people preaching a different Jesus or gospel [II Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9]. Another thing that concerns me is how a group will put together "the latest and greatest Bible truth in a seminar guaranteed to change your life or your money back" – this bothers me when I recall Jesus' own words, "Freely you have received – freely give" [Matthew 10:8]. I guess we need to update His directive to: "Charge a fair market price for anything bearing My logo…and be sure to get the Release of Liability forms signed…in triplicate." Can a training program be helpful to some and hurtful to others? Sure – I think of things like the military [they'd boot me out of boot camp the first week], a cooking class [if you ate my cooking you'd be hurt too], a masters program in economics [that right there would kill me]…Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again. …And there's one other aspect of something that may have harmful effects. This may or may not apply to you…so take it for what it's worth…Sometimes people don't realize the harm they've sustained during an experience – especially to the mind. And in order to fix a problem you must first be aware that there is a problem…I left TWI twenty years ago over intellectual reasons [doctrinal issues and the freedom to think and disagree] – and life has been great! Now I've been coming to GSC for only a year. Wow – it's quite an adventure – I've gone even deeper – exposing pockets of their residual poison - their insidious doctrines and mindset had infiltrated and polluted my faith…This time around as I review my TWI experience and talk to others at GSC – my beef with TWI is a lot more than just intellectual issues now. The moral issues loom so large. Doctrinal stuff…well…so many things we could argue about all day long…but I don't see any room for debate on the clear moral standards of the Bible. I'm not suggesting there's any moral issues with CES or any offshoots I'm just using my issues with TWI as an example – what I am suggesting is you may have taken some serious hits to your intellect/emotions/faith – but just haven't realized it yet. So what's my point? May I suggest you lay off any promotional ads of training programs for awhile…My take on GSC is that it's a place where people come together to sort out their experience with a religious group and in a collective effort now experience healing, understanding and growth…But that's just my take on it. A great place for any doctrinal haggling is in the Doctrinal forum. I even started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God after thinking on some of the things discussed about CES and prophecy. Come – join the party.

Very funny, Excathedra!!!!!!!!! I love your zingers – and your take-charge-attitude…must be that Corps training.

Michael B., those are great!!!!!! Tonto and I are saps for anything that has to do with animals.

In my opinion anyone who has ever been associated with any offshoots, derivatives, or wannabes of TWI have already been infected to some degree with either erroneous doctrine, practices, mindset or a combination thereof. What I used to think was complaining on GSC I now view as an activated thinking process free of group constraints. I imagine this particular open forum might appear somewhat chaotic or unruly – that may be – but I think it’s therapeutic for anyone formerly associated with a group that fosters groupthink, manipulation, mind-control, etc.

Remember to receive anything from France you must: 1. Know what's available. 2. Know how to receive it. 3. Know what to do with it after you've got it. 4. Have needs and wants parallel – but other positions may be acceptable. 5. Their willingness must equal your ability – "No" means "No" in any country.

Guess I was considered expendable…There’s another time I had to install a wireless alert button in the condor cage. This time I have only one keeper escorting me – but he’s armed…with a broom. This enormous bird comes strutting towards us with wings stretched out. I commenced to installing the alert button at a feverish pace while my aforementioned body guard fended off Rodan by shoving the broom whiskers in his [or her – again I didn’t take time to check] chest…Yup – working for those zoo keepers did wonders for self-worth – didn’t help my fear any either.

Speaking of Komodo Dragons – years ago I worked for a company that installed various sensors and alert buttons for keepers at a zoo. My assignment one day was to relocate a temperature sensor in their new Komodo Dragon exhibit. With tools and step ladder in hand, two of the keepers escorted me into the main exhibit. I thought they were there just to make sure I didn't damage anything - - until I saw the three foot long Komodo Dragon poised on the top of a wall of rocks. I was almost to the temp sensor on a wall opposite of rock wall – when the dragon scurries down to in front of me – so fast I froze in my tracks. He [or she – didn't take time to find out] whipped his tail across my work boots with such force it sounded like a 22 caliber gun shot – stung a little too. Then he scurried back up to his perch – don't remember – maybe the keepers ran him off. But I do remember the reassuring words of one of the keepers, "You're lucky he's not full grown – he'd a broke your legs."…Yeah – then I'd forever be referenced by PFAL grads "Do you know what broke the legs of that guy in the Komodo Dragon Exhibit - - it was the fear in the heart and life of that guy."

Thanks, Oak – I always appreciate your input…I didn’t really know where I was going with this thread – but your post IS a direction I’d like to explore. Don’t let the title of the thread throw you – we’re an equal-opportunity forum here . Like I indicated in my first post – coming out of TWI was a rude awakening for dealing with the real world – how to THINK for myself. I think your list of competing priorities is typical of a wise thought process for working through a decision. And I have to agree with you saying some people are inflexibly locked into a religious system and do not consider the ramifications of their decisions. In my never-to-be-released book I’ll get back with You on that as soon as I talk to My Twig Leader I openly admit my decision-making style was usually shallow, irresponsible, lazy and shortsighted.

Have the happiest birthday ever - love yah, Tonto & T-Bone

Technically when sheep blink is that the same as pulling the wool over their own eyes?