T-Bone

Yeah on the King James Old English thing! And that reminds me of another oddity – sometimes the message started out mid-sentence, “…and know my children that I am always with you.” Like they were searching the radio waves and happened upon that signal.

I bet it would really be mind-blowing if you were on some mushrooms.

I feel the same way, RottieGrrrl. Reading a good book is enjoyable because the author took some time, effort and energy to craft something thoughtful and meaningful. The stuff I heard in TWI [palmed off as prophecy] sounded like a bunch of stock phrases strung together…A “spiritual” placebo – and if you didn’t get blessed by an interpretation of tongues or prophecy – then there’s something wrong with you!

Wow wee – that’s way cool!!!!! Now if you could just get Jimi Hendrix’s Castles Made of Sand to play backwards along with it – thanks Greasy Tech.

Reading over these recent points made by WordWolf and Socks – got me thinking about the value Jesus put on those who believe in Him. There isn't any criteria to meet to enter His kingdom, like being spiritually ready or mature – just have a childlike faith. No one is even remotely considered expendable – for He says there will be a terrible judgment upon anyone that would cause them to stumble. Matthew 18:1-7 NASB 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! To me this speaks volumes on what a minister's attitude should be – or any Christian for that matter who is seriously intent on working for the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to keep in mind the effect…the influence that our character, our actions, our doctrine, our practice imparts. "Nobody is perfect – so why get so uptight about this? People will screw up anyway." …Yeah – but I sure as heck don't want to have the Almighty Judge point His finger at me and say "The reason that person stumbled is because of the rock you put in his way."

A few oddities in phrasing: I’m really looking forward to the day when I can look back on all this. If you’d like, I’ll let you offer me a cup of cappuccino. Hurry up and approach frantic speed before something good happens. Some people have a way with words – and some people…not have way. […or something like that from an old Steve Martin routine]

Great thread, FreeAtLast - I don't have a problem with women in positions of authority. I think that sometimes friction develops when insecurities fester [on both sides] and the gender issue overshadows any matters at hand. When it comes down to my criteria for choosing a person for a "management" role – I look at the individual – I do recognize our gender plays a part in the way we process info and make decisions – and I think that is a great design by our Creator! If you were to force me to use TWI's male-mindset – then I'll tell you right off the bat – I'd pick Eve over Adam for a leadership position! She only made an error in judgment whereas he made an error in heart. Or to re-phrase my logic in management review board terms: She unknowingly fell victim to a scam – he in full knowledge deliberately violated company policy. I think so…Tonto and I get along great! I'm an easy going person and not a I've-gotta-be-in-charge type. The TWI years of our marriage were tough – in that I was trying to be someone I was not.

Howdy, Bolshevik and welcome to GSC…I'm with you on the holy boredom thing. Looking back on my TWI experience I'd have to say I doubt that the stuff I saw and heard was genuine. Like a lot of things I learned through TWI – I have devoted much personal study on the utterance manifestations – and believe they were geared to filling a need at a specific time in the church's early years – but that's just my opinion. I do not find clear-cut scriptural evidence to indicate that it is mandated for Christians now. And I certainly disagree with VPW's teaching that manifestations were distributed according to the will of the believer – which contradicts I Corinthians 12:11 saying the Spirit determines the recipients. I posted some excerpts from a theology book on the Letter from John Lynn thread post # 635 – which I will post again here – I thought it presented a somewhat balanced view on the topic. The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881: "…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines… …Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878] …In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena… …In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881] End of excerpts I especially liked the last paragraph – because the author acknowledges the sovereignty of God. He is in charge. It is His prerogative if He wishes to bestow a gift to someone.

Gotcha. Like I was saying in post # 21 – thread discussions can be challenging – hopefully everyone has the patience to stick it out so that eventually we all have a good idea of what each other is saying. Sometimes I can get stuck in my perspective - going back and forth like this works good for me…guess it helps me get unstuck .

Okay – then maybe I’m getting confused by the way you’re complicating this issue. You’re right – the Bible is subject to interpretation – and this topic is a case in point. I view the Bible as God’s moral will – His revealed will – that which He expects me as a Christian to follow. I see no reason to believe any verse holds specific guidance for what I should do if the particular situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible. Neither do I expect God to reveal His sovereign will – His hidden will – His specific plan for getting something done. Such as a specific directive – specific guidance to do something - as He did with Ananias in Acts 9, giving him directions to where Paul was, what Paul was doing, to lay hands on him and restore his sight…Does God still do things like that – yes! But that is His prerogative. As I said in post # 26 referring to Psalms, Matthew 6:13, Romans 8:5-14 and Galatians 5:16-26 it appears that the guidance provided for the Christian is one of an intellectual/moral influence. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your viewpoint. I’m saying if a situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible then what’s the problem with me as a Christian using a thoughtful decision-making process to figure out what to do?

Maybe you’re confused about the Christian’s decision-making process based on God’s moral will. The alternative view as stated by Friesen and Maxson is that the Bible indicates nothing of an “individual will” governing each decision we make. In all decisions, Christians should honor God’s moral will [the commands and directives of the Bible] on matters touched by His moral code. As an oversimplified example consider the question, “what should I do for work?” Once a Christian checks options against God’s moral will [is the work honest and legal for instance] – then the other considerations would follow the person’s personal preferences, salary they’re looking for, etc. I think there’s enough scriptural references to indicate this is a biblical decision-making process for the Christian – and it’s based on God’s moral will – something already revealed in the Bible. Your saying Paul did not choose to get knocked off his horse or blinded is correct – this is an example of God’s sovereign will, how He specifically plans to work certain things out, that is known only to God. The only choice on our part – is how we choose to respond to His sovereign will as it unfolds. Yes – I am saying within the framework of God’s moral will [the commands and directives given in the Bible] – the Christian has choices. And should do so, responsibly – with wisdom and humble prayer. As you said “be careful what you wish for.”

Zoning Commissioner to owner: No man is an island - but in your case we'll make an exception.

Have a great birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a good one, Abigail!

If you're gonna take this birthday laying down - yah might as well just chill.

If you weren’t able to find a copy of Athletes of the Spirit – I was going to recommend the next best thing – Staying Alive. LCM said he received the original revelation for the idea but the Adversary beat him to the punch in production.

Twinky, those are great points you bring up…I understand what you mean – of prophecy as TWI taught it [being for edification] akin to the words spoken in a counseling session or teaching if the person was walking with their heart close to God. What I’m hearing on CES threads is some of the prophecy being used as guidance. What bothers me with personal-prophecy-and-a-dash-of-guidance thrown-in is just what you pointed out – the possibility of it being right or wrong. I don’t see personal prophecy as a legitimate form of guidance mentioned in Scripture…Another thing your post made me think of is the responsibility that comes with our words. How much do we realize the importance of saying the right thing to someone at the right time? When I offer someone Christian counsel – is it doctrinally correct? Is it the right application of a passage? Not only that – but I think the recipient of our words should listen responsibly. Engage their brain too! Don’t take my words as gospel truth. Search the Scriptures to see whether those things are so. There’s a danger in mindlessly accepting advice from anyone. They could be whacked out on some doctrinal issues.

Good point, Hamm. I think you might have something there. I found this the other night while doing some research for my first post. It's from New Dictionary of Theology, edited by Sinclair B. Ferguson, David F. Wright, J. I. Packer, Inter-Varsity Press, 1988, page 538, under Prophecy, Theology of: …The prophet was not the final judge of the validity of his message. As the conflict between prophets in both the OT and the NT [iI Corinthians 11:4, 13; I John 4:1-3] shows, his word was 'tested,' for example, for its prophetic character and for its agreement with the teaching of Moses [Deuteronomy 13:1-5] or of Jesus [Matthew 7:15; 24:11; II Peter 2:1].It was given unquestioned authority only after it was vetted [cf. I Thessalonians 5:19-21]. Even when it was recognized to be a divine word, it did not necessarily become canonical word. Prophecy had [and has] important uses for its immediate recipients, but it was given canonical status only when it was recognized also to be normative revelation for future generations and a touchstone by which future prophecies might be tested. End of excerpt Webster's defines "vetted" used in the above article as meaning: to subject to usual expert appraisal or correction, to evaluate for possible approval or acceptance…And in looking up all the scriptural references given in this above article something stood out on a passage - I didn't realize how much two directives were linked together: I Thessalonians 5:19-21 NASB 19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; They were instructed not to despise prophecies…and notice following right on the heels of that is another directive - to examine everything – carefully.

Welcome to GSC, Another Spot [that has to be one of the coolest names I’ve seen on GSC!]…Lots of good advice on this thread…you certainly have my prayers…and I do have some idea of what you’re experiencing. I left TWI over 20 years ago. The first few years out I’d spent a considerable amount of time and energy wrestling with the TWI-mindset in my belief system – I am a Christian...I’ve joined GSC about a year ago and still find TWIt-brain still raises its ugly stupid head once and awhile in the way I react to something…I guess it’s a healing process I’m experiencing as I exercise my thinking skills – good therapy at GSC. Back in TWI I willingly put on their intellectual straitjacket – and all that did was reduce my mental processor to a sponge – I would absorb instead of analyze. Your statement, “I still have no idea how to approach life on a day to day basis from a spiritual perspective” reminded me of something I read in a Stephen Covey book: The closer our mental map is to reality – the more valuable it becomes. He says something like how useless a map of downtown Chicago would be – if you’re lost in Manhattan…I think there’s something to Covey’s idea. I’m a Christian and believe the Bible is God’s Word. Where I screwed up was in accepting TWI’s re-mapping of reality by their interpretation of the Bible – where God and life can be explained and controlled by rules, formulas, principles, spiritual enlightenment. When you leave TWI – unless you hold on to their goofy perspective – reality has a way of smacking you upside the head! A mental map of reality is different for everyone. Even if we’re both Christian – your take on the Bible will be different from mine. There’s times when I feel lost – wonder what’s going on when my world seems to collapse. I view the Bible as something that helps me connect with God and to enjoy His presence while I’m on this journey [life].

Thanks for the article, Socks…I agree with the author – booing is democratic…And a little off topic here - but awhile back my son came up with a name for a band: Boo – you suck! Which I thought would really generate a vicious circle of frustration – especially if the band was really bad. The audience would keep yelling “Boo – you suck” after each tune and the band would keep playing thinking the audience loved them.

Here's another thread inspired by the discussions on CES, concerning apostles, prophets and prophecy. I just thought I'd start with offering some excerpts from a theological dictionary – and see if anyone is interested in the topic. The following excerpts are from the New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors: T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D. A. Carson and Graeme Goldsworthy, Inter-Varsity Press, 2000, pages 707, 708 of Prophets/Prophecy: …The NT apostles are the counterparts to OT prophets Many OT prophets were able to speak and write words which had absolute divine authority…and which were recorded in canonical Scripture. In NT times also there were people who spoke and wrote God's very words and had them recorded in Scripture; however, Jesus does not call them 'prophets' but uses a new term, 'apostles'. The apostles are the NT counterpart to the primary, established prophets in the OT [see Galatians 1:8,9,11-12; I Corinthians 2:13; II Corinthians 13:3; I Thessalonians 2:13; 4:8,15; II Peter 3:2]. It is apostles, not prophets, who have authority to write the words of NT Scripture. When the apostles want to establish their unique authority they never appeal to the title 'prophet' but rather call themselves apostles [Romans 1:1; I Corinthians 1:1; 9:1-2; II Corinthians 1:1; 11:12-13; 12:11-12; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; I Peter 1:1; II Peter 1:1; 3:2, etc.]… The meaning of 'prophet' in the NT times Why did Jesus choose the new term apostle to designate those who had the authority to write Scripture? One reason is that the gift of prophecy was going to be widely distributed to God's people at Pentecost, and it was appropriate to use another term to refer to the small group who would have authority to write NT Scripture. Another reason is that in NT times the Greek word prophetes ['prophet'] generally did not mean 'one who speaks God's very words' but rather 'one who speaks on the basis of some external influence' [often a spiritual influence of some kind], or even just 'spokesperson'. Titus 1:12 uses the word in this sense; Paul quotes the pagan Greek poet Epimenides: 'One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."' [page 707] The apostles as 'prophets' Of course, the words 'prophet' and 'prophecy' were sometimes used of the apostles when they were giving a 'prophecy', emphasizing that a special revelation from the Holy Spirit was the basis of what they said [Revelation 1:3; 22:7; Ephesians 2:20; 3:5]. But this was not the terminology ordinarily used for the apostles, nor did the terms 'prophet' and 'prophecy' in themselves imply that their speech or writing had divine authority, any more than Paul's calling himself a 'teacher' [iI Timothy 1:11] implied that all 'teachers' in NT times had authority equal to Paul's. With respect to the apostles functioning as 'prophets', Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 speak of the 'foundational' role of a unique group of apostles [and perhaps also a limited group of prophets] who received the special revelation concerning the inclusion of Gentiles in the church [3:5]. However, these verses have no direct relevance to the gift of prophecy as it functioned not in the 'foundation', but in the rest of the church, i.e. in thousands of ordinary Christians in hundreds of local churches in NT times. In other NT passages, the words 'prophet' and 'prophecy' are used more commonly with reference to ordinary Christians who spoke not with absolute divine authority, but simply to report something that God had brought to their minds…[page 708] End of excerpts I found this to be an interesting article – and have never given it much thought of the difference between apostle and prophet in the New Testament.

These are great, BowTwi – thanks! I wonder if their state bird is the middle finger.

Thanks, Shannon - - TempleLady, you're in our thoughts and prayers, love Tonto + T-Bone.

In my opinion, how "guide" and "lead" is interpreted is a key factor in this decision-making and the will of God issue. Webster's New World College Dictionary lists a number of usages under guide: to point out the way for; direct on a course, conduct, lead; to direct the course or motion; to give instruction, train; to direct the policies/ action of; to regulate; a person who directs, or serves as the model for another's conduct, career, etc. A part that controls the motion of other parts of a machine. A book giving instruction in the elements of some subject; handbook. In Military – a soldier at the right front of a column who regulates the pace and alignment and indicates its route. Lead, has similar connotations - Webster's says it's: to show the way to, or direct the course of, by going along with; conduct, guide; to guide, or cause to follow one, by physical contact, holding the hand, pulling a rope, etc. [to lead a horse by the bridle]. To guide or direct, as by persuasion or influence to a course of action or thought [to lead pupils to think clearly]. To cause; prompt. To be at the head of; to act as chief officer of; command the operations of. The above definitions show guide and lead can have various usages – and the context would indicate what is meant. To simplify things I'm suggesting their usages may fit into two categories: 1. A literal guidance of a physical nature, very specific directives, and is a direct or overt method of influence…2. guide/lead can also be used figuratively – as an intellectual/moral guide – suggesting an indirect or subtle method of influence. Though the Bible has instances of literal guidance [a specific directive] and figurative guidance [an intellectual/moral influence] – literal guidance does not appear to be something promised or guaranteed in the Bible – whereas figurative guidance appears to be the norm. Literal guidance – specific directives: Genesis 12:1 NASB Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father's house, to the land which I will show you;" Acts 9: 8-11 NASB 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11 And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying," Figurative guidance – intellectual/moral influence: Psalm 23:3 NASB He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Psalm 119: 18, 27, 33, 34, 133, 135 NASB 18 Open my eyes, that I may behold wonderful things from Your law. 27 Make me understand the way of Your precepts, so I will meditate on Your wonders. 33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes, and I shall observe it to the end. 34 Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law and keep it with all my heart. 133 Establish my footsteps in Your word, and do not let any iniquity have dominion over me. 135 Make Your face shine upon Your servant, and teach me Your statutes. Matthew 6:13 NASB And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. Acts 8:30, 31 NASB 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Galatians 5:16-26 NASB 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. Romans 8:5-14 NASB 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The MacArthur Study Bible notes on Romans 8:14 led by the Spirit. "Believers are not led through subjective, mental impressions or promptings to provide direction in making life's decisions – something Scripture nowhere teaches. Instead, God's Spirit objectively leads His children sometimes through the orchestration of circumstances [Acts 16:7] but primarily through: 1) illumination, divinely clarifying Scripture to make it understandable to our sinful, finite minds [Luke 24:44, 45; I Corinthians 2:14-16, Ephesians 1:17-19; cf. Ephesians 3:16-19; Colossians 1:9]; and 2) sanctification, divinely enabling us to obey Scripture [Galatians 5:16, 17; 5:25]."

I like what you said – you’ve got some great points there – and especially the last two lines – I think the same way…It seems like TWI and CES practice far too much of the opposite side of your statement [“man attributes great things to himself rather then God the author of all things”] – in that they so often attribute what they do as something from God.