T-Bone

Temple Lady – that’s awful what you went through! Leave it to TWIts to be so spiritual they’re no earthly good. I did the Cleanse when I was but a young lad in TWI – and remember having visual blackouts – as in somebody turned off the lights…weird. Bolshevik – thanks for your responses – you’re on to something there with answer # 3 [a good night’s sleep]. Is it any wonder that sleep deprivation is a big part of in-residence Corps training? There must be something bad in mattresses and pillows that makes all that spiritual knowledge leak out. Listener – needless to say, you are my prize student! And yes, you may now enjoy refreshments with the rest of the class – a fresh batch of Kool-Aid…made it myself. Just wait till you have our special wax bean on cracker hors d’oeuvres [got ‘em cheap at the ol’ Army Navy Store Survivalist's Markdown Table] around the middle of the class, the Sick Session: Battle of the Senseless. NY Unknown – correctamundo!...and after seeing your Luke Skywalker avatar I feel I ought to warn you about Listener – the Farce is strong with this one .

Nothing new here. Just thought I'd bring this topic up again – cuz it's fun! What has helped me sort things out more than any book about self-help, critical thinking, or understanding cult dynamics – has been reading/thinking/dialoging/posting on GSC. So here's a big heartfelt "thanks" to Pawtucket, the Mod Squad and all the GSC folks!...Okay – shall we begin? In this first session of Power For Redundant Thinking I want to give you two basic keys for turning off your brain. I'm not going to teach you all the keys for rendering the mind useless – that is not the purpose of this class. We'll leave that stupefying feat to your continued involvement with TWI. I guarantee – if you will lay aside your own thoughts for the next three months – you will tap into the greatness of PFRT…That's right, simply ignore your own thinking process - absorb everything I say – accept it all without question – literally suppressing any urge to scrutinize this stuff or discuss it with someone who is not in TWI. Then and only then – will you be thinking just like me and manifesting Power for Redundant Thinking. Now, please do not take any notes - just stay your mind here – afterwards I will list Absorbing without Question questions and you may respond then. Keys to Turning off Your Brain: 1. Doubt your own reasoning skills. VPW whittles away any self-confidence that a TWI follower has in their analytical/creative thinking skills through an assortment of ideas: You can't go beyond what you're taught…the five senses are not reliable and inferior to "spiritual" knowledge…spiritual knowledge cannot be analyzed…In other words spiritual knowledge is supernatural and sense knowledge is…mmm…well, natural [acquired by the five senses] and never the twain shall meet…Better trust someone who's got a "spiritual" connection so you can stay in the loop…and be loopy, I guess. Just look around for any high-ranking official – they've got a green name tag on that says Way Corps – another hint – the lower the Corps number the better the connection to VPW. Perhaps you should speak in tongues awhile – until the answer comes to yah. 2. Assume another person's thought process is correct. In the PFAL class VPW asserts the Bible interprets itself. Which would mean the Bible is self-explanatory. Any confusion or different interpretations are due to a misunderstanding of the reader – obviously they're not using the right keys to understand the Bible – or else they're "stupider than stupid." During my Corps residency LCM very emphatically stated we were to base our research papers on PFAL stuff and not try to re-invent the wheel. A typical thinking process for TWI folks: "What PFAL principle is involved here?...What has already been said about this in TWI books, magazines, classes, teaching tapes?...What does leadership think about this?...Better call my Twig Coordinator and see what he thinks…What would VPW do?" Absorbing without Question questions 1. What are your thoughts on this topic? 2. Do you think you suppressed analytical thinking skills during your initial involvement with TWI? 3. What methods do you currently use to help you to think clearly?

Thanks, Polar Bear – I’ll check out the video demos. Socks, the 3000 has been instrumental in putting the excitement back into practice. One of my favorite effects combo is Chorus/Flanger and Reverb set to Arena. And after watching the last Jaco clip I’ve been playing around with scales – as in morphing them into jazzy walks or a bass line for a tune…loads of fun!!!...Ah yes, I can see it now – the cover of my first album – a picture of my bass standing in the corner – me with hands on hips looking sternly at the bass – title of the CD: Don’t make Me come over there and play You! Chatty, kewl looking Harleys – sorry to be so Hollywood but the only appropriate bass line I know right off the top of my head is Born to be Wild…What would probably impress DMiller would be me learning Hogs on the Highway by the Bad Livers.

I agree, Hamm!...Maybe PFAL is really about VPW’s covert career: Poonhound For A Living.

Yes – I see your point, Oak…VPW acted like a Christian publicly…privately he schemed and behaved like a sexual predator.

We KNOW God was behind Cyrus' campaign based upon what we read in Scripture. Your speculations about VPW are based upon assumptions. Man, this is really twisted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Taking standards of moral decency and turning them around to be the bad guy. Usually people support the laws of the land that serve to protect what is near and dear to them – like life, liberty [which includes freedom from life-dominating cults and sexual predators], property [physical or intellectual], etc…Value is in the eye of the beholder – I think absorbing PFAL in any form is a sad waste of brain cells... Seriously – taking a good long look at what's been written about VPW on GSC – is a revelation of his true legacy.

I'm glad you appreciated that, Bolshevik. And just for the record it is not the "wrong misnomer" or a proofreader's oversight – but actually an interpolation that whelped up inside of me. As I was drafting this post the phrase originally went like this: "Maybe you'd prefer how VPW so eloquently put it – "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." I had "eloquently" italicized to make a sarcastic point of how devoted followers have such a high regard for his words. But I'm prone to fits of silliness and thought "eloquently" sounds like "elephantly" – and after recalling how people thought his drivel was "heavy revey" I figured a big fat awkward elephant would better express my current opinion of his nonsense…All those wishing to see it in the original are out of luck since there's nothing original about a plagiarist .

I thought about putting this in Doctrinal – but I kept thinking this really belongs in About the Way because it addresses TWI's indoctrination process for justifying sin. Moderators feel free to move it to an appropriate spot…So anyway…here goes… How can you side-step the 10 Commandments and still be a "good" Christian? VPW-based thinking provides an easy 3 step process: 1. Shift reference point from specific mandates – the 10 Commandments – to a nebulous thing called "love." I think the Bible does show an equivalency of love and obeying the 10 Commandments. And this is the point of departure for VPW. He does this at the beginning of PFAL, as he answers the question "what's the greatest sin that a man can commit?" from Matthew 22:34-40. He says something to the effect that if you love God and neighbor you won't go around breaking the commandments. At some point he rephrases his comment to something like "if you love God and neighbor you can do as you full-well please." In my opinion – this is a subtle shift in focus – from something objective/specific/static [the commands listed in Exodus 20:1-17] – to something subjective/vague/dynamic - one's own definition of "love". 2. Sever the connection of love from the 10 Commandments. This is easily done by hyper-dispensationalism, with the logic of "they were given under another administration…we're no longer under the law…we live by a higher law – the law of love." True – Christians are no longer bound to any ceremonial laws of the Old Testament – but I do not find any scriptural indications that release Christians from the moral laws of the Bible. 3. Re-define "love". Scripture offers both a "negative" description of love [like the 10 Commandments Exodus 20:1-17 – most are prohibitions – "You shall not", or in I Corinthians 13 – some passages show what love is not] and a "positive" description of love [like I Corinthians 13 – some verses are encouraging one to be kind, persevere, hope, trust, etc.]. There's actually quite a bit of ground to cover if we want to abstract from Scripture a comprehensive definition of love from every occurrence of the word and its synonyms and include passages where love is exemplified by someone. Bible study is great – and one way we learn is by categorizing and defining things in our own terms and things we're familiar with – but I believe Christianity is more about lordship than scholarship, about the love-defining moments of doing or NOT doing something. Here's my definition of Christian love: It's anything that I DO or DON'T DO based on specific biblical directives or exemplified by someone in Scripture. Yeah…it's kinda long and clunky…needs to be shorter and have some KJV words in it so it sounds Bible-ish…Maybe you'd prefer how VPW so elephantly put it – "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." – Hmm – what does that mean? Whatever you want. I've heard VPW say on many occasions, "Anything done in the love of God is okay". This malleable definition facilitates an "end justifies the means" decision-making process. If I think what I'm about to do is in the best interest of God or people [which includes me] then everything is fine. It's the kind of thinking that says: "I've so renewed my mind that something like that doesn't bother me…the love of God thinketh no evil…I'm spiritually mature and can handle that…Unto the pure all things are pure…It's just a walk – what I allow in my life – maybe you wouldn't allow in yours…Happy is he that condemns not the thing that he allows…" …What do you think? Any comments or other ideas on this topic?

Thanks for the additional Jaco clip, Socks. He was amazingly versatile - could even make the bass sound like a piano . Dmiller, thanks for that Izthak clip. He hits me as being a wonderful and inspiring teacher - loved his story at the end - how one fellow learned to play a staccato...I was also amazed by the second student - NOT LOOKING at the violin while playing a very complicated passage! Wow!

Concerning the dual nature of light [wave/particle] - I actually thought about using that analogy on Glad to be Out's thread Jesus Christ, 275 Reasons…Part A – but was hesitant because I thought it might get too technical to explain – and I'm trying to curb my tendency to go all over the map just to get across the street [like on this post ]. So I decided to use the Regular TV/HD TV analogy instead on my post # 9: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=320521 And on the With Apologies to Jesus and the Trinity thread my post # 26 I talked about two different groups looking at the same drawing see two different things – one group saw a young lady with her head turned and the other group saw an old hag: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=222967 All of these analogies address the way we perceive things…It's funny – all three analogies have been used in reference to the Trinity or identity/nature of Jesus…And perhaps I should have been more specific when replying to your post # 209. What rang true for me was light's wave/particle nature – this duality appears elsewhere and investigating either attribute can be like chasing the wind sometimes. In The Fabric of the Cosmos, page 90, 91, Brian Greene states, "In the quantum world, we've learned that everything has both particle-like and wave-like attributes. Over the last eight decades, the ubiquity and utility of quantum mechanical probability waves to predict and explain experimental results has been established beyond any doubt. Yet there is still no universally agreed-upon way to envision what quantum mechanical probability waves actually are." We do the same thing – trying to explain the nature/identity of Jesus Christ by making inferences from Scripture that do not address this directly. Ockham's Razor is a great critical thinking principle – but in my opinion seems to stall out on this topic for several reasons – nothing wrong with the principle…maybe it's the way we apply it…what data are we plugging in and what data are we ignoring? Much of the relevant biblical data is ambiguous. More specific scriptural evidence can pivot on a viewpoint…Are we asking the wrong questions? Is this something God has deemed inscrutable? More than any other biblical topic – I think the identity/nature of Jesus Christ is the number one lightning rod for drawing out controversy in folks. I claim I like to discover more than debate but when challenged on this issue sometimes find myself bound and determined to blast holes in someone else's viewpoint…A funny predicament – don't you think? I get the idea that the main/most important subject of the Bible is Jesus Christ. Yet it seems like a lot of folks have a difficult time figuring out the particulars of His nature/identity from the Bible…well I do anyway…my curiosity/intellectual dilemma in no way dampens my faith or passion for Him – He is still my Lord and My God!

Thanks, Socks and Polar Bear for your input – think I may have to up my budget and may wait awhile until I understand the architecture of the different systems. And I want to thank everyone who has contributed on this thread – it has been inspirational in getting me back into the "business of having fun." Socks, I looked at the Soundblaster 24 bit E-MU 0404 you mentioned – didn't see a PCI mini card adapter – needed for my Dell Laptop. But I did notice this bad boy below: Creative Sound Labs E-MU 1616 and get the optional 02 Cardbus to connection to my Laptop http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=237&subcategory=239&product=15163 Looked at the Yamaha AW16G you mentioned at Musician's Friend [where I bought my effects pedal] http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-AW1600-Audio-Workstation?sku=245013 I agree with you on a standalone system – not PC based for stability. Hmmmm…may have to up my budget quite a bit!...Well…right now I'm just gathering information – and to all I say keep it coming! Polar Bear – the Band in a Box sounds interesting – I want the capability to record live/overdub bass, acoustic guitar and keyboard and then add drum tracks and other instrumentation via software – and eventually burn the final mix onto a CD…If I went with the Yamaha AW16G – I would still need an EMU right? And could I integrate software like Band in the Box with it? …On the Jaco Pastorius front: I'm so enthralled by his technique on that You Tube clip – that even though I have his The Birthday Concert CD I've ordered his Anthology CD.

Thanks, Word Wolf - great post - makes a lot of sense to me...I've also thought of the wave/particle issue in regards to this subject.

Hmmmm...let me reflect on that one awhile.

Hi John or Jean – sorry to get you two confused…guess it comes from me being a Dualitarian …Yes – that would be one logical assumption – if we ignore passages like I in Corinthians 15 where Christ turns over the kingdom [whatever "kingdom" it's referring to – and I personally think it's the Messianic Kingdom as stated in my post # 18] – or passages that indicate the Son's authority to reign is derived from the Father. Does this detract from Christ being an eternal being? I don't think so. Though His lordship is derived from the Father – He is truly vested as Lord of lords and King of kings – not managing a puppet regime as a vassal king. This is clear by Him willingly handing over the kingdom to His Father . I'm not saying my concept of the Trinity is correct – or even declaring Trinitarians are right and non-Trinitarians are wrong. I'm far from being a knowledgeable scholar on any Bible stuff – especially this topic! What I used to like about TWI's doctrine of Jesus Christ not being God was how it made for a much more manageable/understandable concept of God. Some of what turned me off to Trinitarian doctrine was holding onto TWI's description of it. Another thing was the [now this is my take on everything – remember I'm not the official Trinity spokesman – which would make me a…Quadrinity…or Quadrplex…3 Plus 1er…oh wait…scrap that idea – I'm not an eternal being] blending/confusing/complex nature of some pro-Trinitarian books I read on the subject. The last few years – my studies pursue a much more detailed investigation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they're relationship to each other and…me – coupled with a new sense of freedom after reading Morey's book Trinity: Evidence and Issues. After his pointing out the multi-personal aspect of God revealed in the Old Testament and details of the theophanies – I no longer feel bound to prove 3 is 1 or that the Son is the Father [that is TWI's version of the Trinity]– because…BECAUSE… BECAUSE – I don't see that in the Bible.

Limitations of knowledge would not necessarily indicate Jesus is less than divine. For that matter, one could say Jesus has one-up on the Father by His first-hand knowledge of temptation, suffering and death CHOOSING not to sin under the brunt of each and every instance. Maybe it's a matter of focusing only on the distinctions between Father and Son – which certainly indicates two persons and not considering the other familial aspects of the terms – that indicate similarity. My son came from my wife and I – he is not me or my wife. My son and I are two distinct individuals. Genetically, we're of the same species– we both have a human nature. Jesus Christ is truly a unique being – Philippians 2 indicates He has TWO natures – human and divine. He is called the Son of Man [human nature] and the Son of God [divine nature]. Matthew and Luke record human genealogies but John states the divine lineage…In the beginning was the Word…the Word was with God…the Word was God…The Word became flesh. I don't think the term "the Son of God" is in reference to His Immaculate Conception – that was His human nature – as the Son of Man. The miraculous aspects of His birth don't appear to be the issue when the religious leaders were in an uproar over His claim of God being His Father – it was the inference of an actual lineage, a real [as opposed to a virtual] kinship between the two – an equivalency of divinity, being of the same "species" so to speak: John 5:17,18 NASB 17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 18 For this reason therefore (M)the Jews (N)were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, (O)making Himself equal with God. I guess it's a matter of opinion – how one could interpret Jesus' statements of Himself – that indicate His familial relationship and identity – is He less than divine or merely distinguishing Himself from the Father: the Father is greater than I…the Father has sent Me…not My will but Thy will be done…I and the Father are one…he that has seen Me has seen the Father.

Socks, thanks for the bass exercises with Jaco. Very inspiring – now I'm wanting to practice scales again. Interesting what he said about making them musical – which I interpret as having fun. I used to do that when I practiced scales and many times would come up with a bass line for a tune…More so than anything else I've heard Jaco play on – this clip has made me REALLY APPRECIATE his skill, dexterity, and creativity!!! …Getting back to the bass player in the closet - this Tone Works Signal Processor is loads of fun and now I'm thinking about getting some kind of recording gear – worried about cost of a lot of hardware though and so I was wondering about software. I've done a GSC search on this thread – I've found some posts that mention recording gear – but hadn't found any mention of software for recording [may not have worded my search right]…Anyway – looking on the Internet I found The Musician's Bundle for $79.95 http://www.acoustica.com/musicians-bundle.asp Is anyone familiar with the above or have another software program to recommend? I'm just doing some research for now. I'm still open to options like an all-in-one recording/mixing piece of hardware – but nothing very expensive [if that's even realistic].

Great input, Cynic! And thanks for the eschatology post.

Thanks, Like an Eagle! Cry of the Soul is a great book - I'm reading it right now too.

I think the tendency with most folks when I was in TWI – was to fixate on these "sonship rights" to the exclusion of an honest evaluation of oneself. Jesus asked why do I look at the speck of sawdust in my brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in my own eye [Matthew 7:3]? Where in the Bible does it indicate these are rights? I think there could be a risk of sedating the conscience with an adamant conviction that these are in my possession – to be used as an asset…a resource…a blank check to buy off condemnation: "I'm still righteous! It doesn't matter that I just committed adultery." In the Bible feelings of godly sorrow, shamefulness of sin, anger over letting a temptation get the best of us – are the driving force behind true repentance. Psalm 51 is a beautiful passage of a contrite heart: Psalm 51 NASB 1(A)Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of (B)Your compassion (C)blot out my transgressions. 2(D)Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And (E)cleanse me from my sin. 3For I (F)know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. 4(G)Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is (H)evil in Your sight, So that (I)You [a]are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. 5Behold, I was (J)brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6Behold, You desire (K)truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will (L)make me know wisdom. 7Purify me (M)with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be (N)whiter than snow. 8Make me to hear (O)joy and gladness, Let the (P)bones which You have broken rejoice. 9(Q)Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. 10(R)Create in me a (S)clean heart, O God, And renew a (T)steadfast spirit within me. 11(U)Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your (V)Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore to me the (W)joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a (X)willing spirit. 13Then I will (Y)teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will [b]be (Z)converted to You. 14Deliver me from (AA)bloodguiltiness, O God, (AB)the God of my salvation; Then my (AC)tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness. 15O Lord, (AD)open my lips, That my mouth may (AE)declare Your praise. 16For You (AF)do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. 17The sacrifices of God are a (AG)broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. 18(AH)By Your favor do good to Zion; (AI)Build the walls of Jerusalem. 19Then You will delight in (AJ)righteous sacrifices, In (AK)burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar. Jay Adams mentions in a few of his Christian counseling books a dynamic found in Scripture – do good and you feel good. I've noticed when I feel good about my relationship with God and people I usually feel good about myself.

Great thread topic MarkOMalley, and very insightful posts everyone!!!!! Sometimes don’t you wish you could aim a remote control at someone, press the Honesty button and their words would reveal their true intentions: “The greatest leader is the greatest servant. And just so there’s no confusion – I’m not your leader – I’m your supervisor – so you’d better get crackin’ on setting up the meeting room before the boss gets here…and did you finish mowing my yard and replacing the transmission on my Jeep? We’re gonna be four wheelin’ at the Men’s Advance next weekend and I wouldn’t want to disappoint God’s people.” “God sure loves a cheerful giver and I’m always delighted to help a believer in need. I’d give you the shirt off your own back. Remember, as you give – I receive.”

Jean, I Corinthians 15:24-28 is indeed an intriguing reference for this discussion – and one that I find a bit confusing in light of Luke 1:30-33 where Gabriel's words to Mary indicated Christ's kingdom will have no end, Revelation 11:15 Christ will reign forever and Revelation 22:1-3 mentioning the throne of God and of the Lamb. I Corinthians 15:23-28 NASB 23But each in his own order: Christ (AH)the first fruits, after that (AI)those who are Christ's at (AJ)His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over (AK)the kingdom to the (AL)God and Father, when He has abolished (AM)all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign (AN)until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be (AO)abolished is death. 27For (AP)HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "(AQ)All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When (AR)all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS)God may be all in all. Luke 1:30-33 NASB 30The angel said to her, "(AL)Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you (AM)shall name Him Jesus. 32"He will be great and will be called the Son of (AN)the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him (AO)the throne of His father David; 33(AP)and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, (AQ)and His kingdom will have no end." Revelation 11:15 NASB 15Then the (AJ)seventh angel sounded; and there were (AK)loud voices in heaven, saying, "(AL)The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of (AM)His [c]Christ; and (AN)He will reign forever and ever." Revelation 22:1-3 NASB 1Then (A)he showed me a (B)river of the (C)water of life, clear (D)as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of [a]the Lamb, 2in the middle of (E)its street (F)On either side of the river was (G)the tree of life, bearing twelve [b]kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3(H)There will no longer be any curse; and (I)the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will (J)serve Him; Robert Morey in The Trinity: Evidence and Issues on page 519 refers to the I Corinthians passage, "…Trinitarians do not believe that the Messianic kingdom is eternal. It began with the ministry of Christ on earth and was established when He sat down at the right hand of the Father in heaven and will end when He returns in glory ." Morey's explanation may be right – but I'm hesitant to give it much weight since it is derived from an assumption. The passage does not offer much detail on the kingdom it mentions. I wish I could ask Paul "Would you please elaborate a little more on this turning over the kingdom business in I Corinthians 15?" The NIV Bible Commentary Volume 2: The New Testament, editors Kenneth Barker & John Kohlenberger III on page 652 presents a little more detailed explanation that agrees with Morey's viewpoint – arguing from the context of I Corinthians 15 "…Some think the reference to "the end" in vv.24-27 refers to the absolute end of this world. They hold that what follows "then" in verse 24 is identical with what follows the "then" in v.23. According to this view, the end in v.24 is the final end, and it is not preceded by a literal thousand-year reign in which Christ puts his enemies under his feet. But this interpretation changes radically Paul's idea of events following each other in temporal sequence, to an abrupt "then the end will come," where there is no more sequence. This seems arbitrary, and it does not take adequate account of the fuller teaching on this subject in Rev. 20:4-10 – a passage that posits a reign of Christ and a time when this earth will have peace and rejuvenation before its final destruction [Rev. 21:1]." Trying to sort out all this stuff by two categories – like the Ben Franklin method – Column A, He's not God and Column B, He is God seems to be an exercise in futility sometimes. And this is one of the reasons why I say I'm not a defender of the Trinity. I lean towards it – admitting I'm a Trinitarian is maybe an approximation or shorthand for my attempt to understand the nature of God. From the Corinthian passage I get the idea of a "merging" ["that God may be all in all" I Corinthians 15:28] – so I don't know – let's make a Column C, Combination of Columns A & B – whoa I better confer with Star Trek engineers and ask about the risks of mixing matter with antimatter – would we jeopardize the integrity of the warp core? Who knows?! Just imagine an open discussion like this amongst in-residence Corps [if that were possible – LOL] - fights would break out "Captain, a warped Corps breech is imminent!"

This is one of the many assumptions I re-evaluated after leaving TWI. Followers of TWI accepted so many things without proof or intellectual standards, like: TWI rightly divides the Word more so than any other group on earth, we can get back to the "original" Word of God through TWI's "research", God revealed to VPW the Word like it hadn't be known for centuries, TWI's "research" is accurate, thorough [maybe even "throughly"], scholarly, unbiased, exhaustive, authoritative and is spiritually right-on. At the core of VPW's theology was a worship of the Bible and an overdose of Gnosticism. It basically set up a relationship between the TWI follower and a book. Presently the priesthood, gateway, or mediator between Bible worshippers and the Bible is of course TWI leadership adhering to VPW's standards of "scholarship." Seeing how the simple message of the Bible is the same in any manuscript, translation, version, etc., I get the idea its message is about a person and not a book – and about developing a relationship with a person and not a book. Is the Bible authoritative? To me it is – I believe the author is God! Is the Bible unchallengeable? Nope – we humans frequently disobey it or don't believe it. Do I need to research Scripture in order to understand it better? You bet! That's why I have a modest library [in book form and on CD/DVD]with lots of versions of the Bible, biblical languages references and commentaries by authors of various doctrinal positions – besides all the stuff that's available on the Internet! Speaking for myself – reviewing my position on anything is a habit I've developed over the years…One assumption I've noticed in your post is that you think something as complicated as one's sum of TWI-experiences and impact can be dismissed with an extremely simplistic either a love it/hate it decision. That thinking is in itself a paradigm for TWI's decision-making process on even the most complex issue. Typically, the TWI-mindset IGNORES the following: details, looking at the WHOLE picture, hearing all sides of the story, identifying/specifying/quantifying/qualifying any relevant aspects, sorting/categorizing/articulating thoughts by any method that does not follow TWI's parameters. It is a lot easier and simpler for a follower to check with leadership on what they should think about the person, issue, etc. Personally, I do not hate VPW, LCM, or anyone associated with or in support of TWI. I try not to harbor ill will towards anyone. Being a Christian I try to follow the Bible's directives on confronting evil, sin, character assessment – in my own life first and then working out from there. Not only is the Bible VERY CLEAR on what is evil, sinful and true indicators of character – it also specifies how offenses are to be handled – whether one-on-one, small group or the whole congregation – and what details/responses/issues would escalate the offense from one level to the next. I'm not saying I'm perfect, sinless or never have evil thoughts. I'm just a typical God-fearing Christian – have been as far back as I can remember [probably not a good reference point since the older I get the less I remember ]. What baffles me is when the TWI-defenders ignore TWI's hypocrisy or minimize the despicable behavior of sexual predators. Have I ever had lustful thoughts? Sure! But I have NEVER followed through on them – like cheat on my wife or drug and rape a woman. The struggle with tempting thoughts has gotten easier over the years – don't know if that's an indication of Christian maturity or just…advanced maturity . Geez – it's not very long into some fantasy that alarms are sounding all over my head – I've got my Catholic upbringing to thank for that. So how is it - a little ol' follower of TWI is to submit to the moral standards of the Bible but TWI leadership doesn't have to? That's another area that I reviewed in this re-evaluation process after I got out – spanning a bunch of related topics: TWI's minimizing sin to broken fellowship, fixating on "sonship rights" versus an accurate view of self, deeming the flesh of little consequence so it doesn't matter what you do, a false confidence of spiritual maturity that leads to lasciviousness, a code of ethics that says the end justifies the means, doing anything is okay if done in the love of God. I don't think I've gotten the idea from anyone at GSC that they feel VPW or LCM or any TWI leadership are the devil incarnate, possessed or wrong seed. I don't play God and make a judgment call like "they're not even Christian" or "they're going to hell." Actions speak louder than words. I re-evaluated the persona I was "issued" [always a soft-sell process, mind you] by TWI of these leaders. Being Corps I have been privy to the way they conducted themselves and the attitudes they revealed during unguarded moments or in an atmosphere unhampered by those of less commitment [non-Corps]. I don't think your analogy of Einstein tinkering with assumptions applies here. Inventors, discoverers, scientists, researchers usually address a real problem, something based in reality – and success may sometimes come through unconventional means – perhaps by even disregarding traditional assumptions. They may reveal a new aspect of reality [E=MC2] or a different way to interact with reality [nuclear power] – but they do not ignore or change reality. However, ignoring or "changing" reality is a significant tenet of TWI and I would not label it as "tinkering with assumptions" but put it more on the order of a presupposition of major design.

Thank you, Glad to be Out – and no offense taken. I am glad you posted it – thinking over opposing viewpoints is a good catalyst for discussion and re-assessment of one's own opinions. As I said in post # 14 – I did not intend to be pugnacious – I just thought that some of the arguments were couched in demeaning jabs at Trinitarians rather than debating specific passages. I wish more people would have gotten involved on the thread. I don't consider myself the defender of all things Trinitarian or the Unknown Theologian [with a LARGE brown paper bag over my three heads]. I don't think the Jesus is God/not God issue is clearly and squarely addressed by a simple reading of the Scriptures. There's lots of room for discussion. I think points can be given to both sides by inferences from certain passages. *** Warning *** Warning *** Warning ***Rant Alert and Possible Derailment ***! The reason I chime in on these discussions is for the fun of exploring/re-evaluating my own and other folks' viewpoints - and in learning how to articulate theological issues. I derive more satisfaction in discovering a hidden or faulty assumption on my part than winning someone over to my way of thinking. I have expressed such intentions on other doctrinal threads before – and I'll tell you WHY it is such an impetus in drafting my posts. Some of the many things that I had assimilated while in TWI were their arrogant, narrow-minded and combative attitudes – when it came to developing a teaching topic for Twig/Branch, doctrinal discussions and often in a counseling situation. In my opinion this is an evil intellectual environment – only bondage, manipulation and deception can come from it…Now that I am FREE from that insane group – I proceed MUCH MORE CAUSTIOUSLY and RESPONSIBLY when expressing matters of faith, considering the possibility of influence it may have on another person…Bringing it back to our present discussion [***The Rant Alert and Possible Derailment Warning has expired***] – I sometimes look at valid contributions from either side of this issue like Andrew bringing his brother Simon Peter to see Jesus. John 1:40-42 NASB 40(BF)One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the (BG)Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 42He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of (BH)John; you shall be called (BI)Cephas" (which is translated (BJ)Peter). Hopefully, Christians can be more like Andrew and Simon Peter when sharing or considering the identity of Christ. Andrew identified Jesus by a term in Scripture and encouraged Peter to meet Him face to face. Peter may have initially gone to meet Him out of respect for his brother, intellectual/religious curiosity or whatever reason – but the fact remains Peter did go to meet Him – which was the start of a wonderful relationship between Peter and Christ [interesting side note – Jesus starts out the relationship by giving Simon another name to be identified by – "Peter"]. We all see Christ differently – I don't think it's that important if we have difficulty articulating how we see Him or compare "notes" – I think the personal relationship with Him is the big deal. Love and peace flowing your way – T-Bone

Cool idea – but do you have to wait for the contents to settle down before opening?

The thing that drove me to leave was the frustration and confusion generated by TWI's top leadership after Passing of the Patriarch - as factions battled for power, avoided issues and shifted blame. The only way to appease my troubled mind was to start re-assessing everything I held to be true from TWI. Activating and developing an analytical thinking process has definitely shaped my current beliefs. As you can see below. Yeah – I used to believe VPW's nonsense of God talking to him and making it snow…But now in re-evaluating everything I have a different opinion of TWI. I believe in 1986 God intervened on behalf of every person that had even a smidgen of intelligence and conscience left – by exposing the deceased founding president and current top leadership for what they really were – a bunch of hypocritical, egotistical, power-hungry, mean-spirited bozos. It happened in a non-traditional way – it imploded from within – as they attacked one another. God - like a thief in the night – merely opening the door - and a gust of wind blew down this household of cards.