T-Bone

Romans 1:18-32 NASB 18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures. 24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips, 30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them. I would like someone to show me where in it says in the Bible God designed the mind to hold the Word. Although the phrase does have a nice TWI-ring to it – a very important sales pitch for their point of view. It is an assumption – and doesn't carry much weight with me. As my assumption probably doesn't mean that much to you – it's my belief there's an aspect of the human mind that bears a likeness to our Creator. The above passage tells me that since the beginning, God's invisible attributes, power and nature are evident in the physical world [verse 20] and the cerebral world [verse 19]. And even though we are a fallen race living in a cursed world – this corruption has not wiped out God's signature on His artwork – and for that very reason "they are without excuse" [verse 20]. Rather than going around the world in 80 posts to list the things in the physical world that attest to our Creator's existence and nature – let's think about the attributes and immaterial nature of people. I would like to revise my statement in post # 30 "The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience" to also include other attributes of the immaterial part of man. If there is indeed cerebral evidence that bears God's signature – what would it be? It would be universal and still exist – for the Bible to state all are without excuse. What things would be common between the Creator and all humans – who are made in His likeness? I happen to think the things that qualify us as human are the very things that make us like God: we have the capacity to love, to forgive, to invent, to reflect, to have abstract thought, that we have a desire to be fair, to do the right thing, and have compassion towards someone less fortunate than ourselves. Perhaps when our conscience is smitten and we feel shame or regret it's from intuitively knowing we have fallen short of what we know we can or should do. Maybe that's along the lines of verse 18 "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who)suppress the truth in unrighteousness" and verse 32 "although they know the ordinance of God" – is it a thing of suppressing what we know to be true? Ignoring our conscience? I think you're missing the point of Romans 1 - this section of Scripture addresses something more important than TWI's homophobic focus on verses 26, 27. It looks to me like what really drew God's wrath was something so unthinkable. That the creature would say to the Creator – "I don't need you! I don't want you. I'd rather worship and serve myself." Possibly the "lie" it refers to in verse 25 is similar to the lie of the Serpent in Genesis 3 – "you'll be just like God."…Which is kind of weird – they were sort of like God to begin with – created in His image and likeness. Isn't that just like the devil – why he'd sell you the shirt off your own back [said in my best televangelist voice]. And fallen man indeed served himself – ruled by passions, drawn into self-destructive behavior, sin just overpowering the true self, the image of God sinking in a cesspool. TWI is not interested in the true self. They're into molding people into a super race – with powers and abilities that elevate them above us mere mortals. "The flesh is of no consequence. I'm so spiritual – I can handle anything. I've so renewed my mind – that's not sin to me. Can't trust my own thoughts. Your conscience bothering you? You just haven't renewed your mind."

A second "amen" from me too! GSC is an amazing community – so many good things happen at so many levels through a simple give and take process that occurs here. Great folks here! Thanks for everyone's input on this thread – it's very healing to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo Roy, love and a holy kiss blowing your way on your birthday [or there about]

You nailed it, Polar Bear...er...uhm...well maybe un-nailed it or something...

I don't put a lot of stock in VPW's viewpoint on the conscience anymore than I would some guy telling me his thoughts on what it's like being pregnant.…I don't agree with your words "we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" or "Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns." While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1. Romans 1:18-21 NASB 18 For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. The above passage suggests God actually left TWO things that testify of His existence: The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience. I tend to think in most cultures - past and present – no matter what their belief system was/is – they all possess some innate sense of right and wrong like "it's wrong to kill someone, it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to lie, etc." These thoughts would form the basis of what was acceptable in a tribe, village, society, nation, etc.

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Good catch, MarkOMalley !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least doctrinal debates won’t have to be the same old name-calling routine…instead: T-Bone: How you get that out of the passage is beyond me! That is so typical of a Chalcedon compliant. The Evan: Takes one to know one.

I guess I should list some Scripture as the basis for my statements in post # 13, regarding the role of gift ministries and guardianship of the divine revelation that was given to them: Ephesians 2:19, 20 NASB 19 So then you are no longer (BI)strangers and aliens, but you are (BJ)fellow citizens with the saints, and are of (BK)God's household, 20 having been (BL)built on (BM)the foundation of (BN)the apostles and prophets, (BO)Christ Jesus Himself being the (BP)corner stone, Ephesians 4:11-16 NASB 11 And He (V)gave (W)some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as (X)evangelists, and some as pastors and (Y)teachers, 12 (Z)for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of (AA)the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to (AB)the unity of the faith, and of the (AC)knowledge of the Son of God, to a (AD)mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the (AE)fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are (AF)no longer to be children, (AG)tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by (AH)craftiness in (AI)deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth (AJ)in love, we are to (AK)grow up in all aspects into Him who is the (AL)head, even Christ, 16 from whom (AM)the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself (AN)in love. I Timothy 6:20, 21 NASB 20 (BB)Timothy, guard (BC)what has been entrusted to you, avoiding (BD)worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-- 21 which some have professed and thus (BE)gone astray from (BF)the faith (BG)Grace be with you. II Timothy 1:13, 14 NASB 13 (AN)Retain the (AO)standard of (AP)sound words (AQ)which you have heard from me, in the (AR)faith and love which are in (AS)Christ Jesus. 14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who (AT)dwells in us, the (AU)treasure which has been entrusted to you. II Timothy 2:1, 2 NASB 1 You therefore, my (A)son, (B)be strong in the grace that is in (C)Christ Jesus. 2 The things (D)which you have heard from me in the presence of (E)many witnesses, (F)entrust these to (G)faithful men who will be (H)able to teach others also.

It may benefit you to look into the biblical definition of "Apostle" – having the unique role of being the only office authorized by God to write the New Testament. It would seem appropriate that once the documents were written their function would serve more as guardians…keepers of true doctrine – a charge passed on to any successors vested by God with this foundational gift to a young church. Here's a link to a thread I started that gets into their distinctive authority - the Apostles, Prophets and prophecy thread http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=312563 I think it would be worth your time to do some research on it – and I recommend looking at reputable books by real scholars. Your post has that familiar lament of VPW's egocentric view of church history and church government. He had that man-of-god-for-the-world mentality – everything revolved around the primacy of PFAL. And just as the first century world failed Paul so to our modern world has failed VPW. It seems contradictory [and presumptuous] that you would claim that "church councils are hardly ever (or rarely ever) to debate what is correct and what isn't correct doctrine" and then say "If you honestly get around to studying the council at Nicaea or the Creed of Nicaea without any preconceived notions, you will easily become overwhelmed (even nauseated) by all the political wranglings and underhanded machinations that resulted from that council in 325AD and the years thereafter." How many church councils have you studied? Did you work up statistics on what issues were addressed to show percentages of content? And did you check any reference material other than VPW's hackneyed version of the Council of Nicaea in Jesus Christ is not God? It appears you have some presuppositions when it comes to assessing church councils.

I wish you all gourdspeed !

Great points, Sunesis ! Another thing to consider is the value of historical proximity for modern Christianity. Think about the attention archeologists and historians give to any artifact of their target period. These artifacts provide a peek into the past through someone else's eyes. In the case of the early church fathers – those who were so close temporally/culturally to the birth of Christianity – through their writings we may get a clearer picture of the "raw data" of the Christian faith, the impact/experience of living so close to ground zero, and the earliest stages of doctrinal developments which I think would be invaluable – being uncluttered or tainted by any formalized theological systems. Lone Wolf McQuade – your method of assessing church history has that God-taught-VPW-the-Word-like-it hasn't-been-known-since-the-first-century viewpoint written all over it.

Thanks, Bliss!...Maybe I do need to set my sights a little higher. I've sorta been envisioning myself as the next Max Headroom …I always like the kind and considerate tone your posts bring to a thread - and wish you'd post in Doctrinal more – someone's got to keep me in line . Son of the Master – I do apologize for being so combative. It is not my intention to prove you're position on this thread is wrong and mine is right. It is more of a challenge to your thinking process – my being curious on how you've arrived at your conclusions. And again – not that you're thinking process is wrong and mine is right – not a duel to the death – but a duel to the crux of the matter - an invitation to each to prove they're engaging their best thinking. As Bliss pointed out – another issue has surfaced on this thread – TWI's odd mixture of thought processes…sometimes being very detailed and logical interspersed with speculations, assumptions and lapses of reason. I am not saying God cannot communicate with people, that there's no such thing as revelation or any of the manifestations you talked about. What I'm saying is that so far you have failed to document from Scripture that it all works the way you've described it. That is the crux of the matter on this "spirit bypasses the mind" stuff. Cman - great post!!!!!

It means we are twins .

Polar Bear – love the bartender joke! Chatty – think cool

Interesting quiz…I'm tempted to monkey around with my belief system so I can alter the graph [which didn't show up in my post]…make an arrow pointing left, silhouette of Jesus, etc…just to make myself more interesting for the religious review board. You scored as Chalcedon compliant. You are Chalcedon compliant. Congratulations, you're not a heretic. You believe that Jesus is truly God and truly man and like us in every respect, apart from sin. Officially approved in 451. 83%Nestorianism 67%Apollanarian 67%Pelagianism 58%Monophysitism 58%Adoptionist 50%Modalism 42%Monarchianism 25%Donatism 17%Gnosticism 17%Arianism 8%Docetism 8%Albigensianism 0%Socinianism That was fun, thanks WrdsandWrks! Interesting points Cynic and MarkOMalley, especially the tension in the union as you expressed MarkO:

All they have to do is log on to Rosie’s web cam.

Yes, I'd have to agree with Trust and Obey - it reminds me of TWI's way of interpreting the Bible too. Which was usually a trip into parts unknown through the art of speculation and a flair for ignoring context and re-defining words to suit a particular doctrine [as I mentioned in post # 48]. I am amazed that you can draw all that information about what Jesus was thinking…and NOT thinking since He had to get His mind out of the way…What data in the passage suggests any of that to you? For that matter, I can come up with a different reason if I were to force my belief in the divinity of Jesus onto the passage – it would go something like this: Jesus being divine – and knowing what was in the hearts of the accusers – stooped down and wrote in the ground the very commandment that He once penned in stone for Moses. The words written in stone had come alive by the Word made flesh. For centuries, religious leaders enjoyed the power and privilege of twisting the law around to suit their own agenda – as if taming a wild beast. But this day the Lion of Judah turned on them. His stooping and writing merely a ploy to lure them in closer, as if cowering to their tactical advantage. When all at once His words leaped forth – pouncing on their overconfident hearts…All this amounts to is speculations and assumptions – not worth a darn - just like your version. How do you share the record without sounding like TWI? Break the habit of processing Scripture the way TWI does. A book that I recommend for developing not only Bible study skills but also learning to abstract principles as well is What to Do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures by Jay Adams. Besides going over the basics of interpretation [like attention to details of grammar, consulting context: textual, historical, cultural, geographical] it also keeps you on point to discover the author's purpose of a particular passage. And in my opinion, Adams does all that without pushing an agenda and remains consistent in the use of interpretive tools.

Another Spot – I'm trying to cut back – I'll just take a Wool-Lite. Trust and Obey - Confuse with your mouth that Cheese-Nuts is Gourd and be cheap in your heart to eat raisins in the bed [the preceding philosophical conundrum was plagiarized in it's entirety from the Listener with Purpose Syllabus]…If you're not spiritually ready for that type of commitment – we can always do some horse-tradin'. You give me a fairly new pop-up trailer [with an 8 Track Tape Deck] in mint condition [only been to the Rock a time or two] and I'll give you a 2727-TWTBTBF form. Temple Lady – I've half a mind to call an emergency leaders meeting and go over the importance of prioritizing inquisitions that are tantamount to an ordering form. Although I have to confess – if I was in Clerk 25's situation I wouldn't miss the opportunity to catch Steve's The Jaws of Strife Exhibit either.

Great idea for a thread, Word Wolf! I chose the one: They believe it is important to bring the truth to light… I pretty much go along with what everyone else has already said – great posts all! A few months after joining GSC – I began to feel it was my moral duty as a Christian and as a citizen of a free country to tell of my TWI experiences, reflect on the details of their deceptive doctrines and the impact it all had on my life. DMiller, I really got a kick out of your post – GSC is sort of like the WOW field. We’re all likeminded around a common belief – TWI sucks! Folks coming together from different parts of the world. I love all the inspirational one-liners that I hear during manifestations [threads], like: GSC calls us thinkers because that is what we’re expected to do. Some of the thinkers who go WOW [We’re Outtada Way] have never lived away from home [under the iron fist of TWI leadership] and are so excited with the chance to flex their wings...What a great bunch of folks here – I really mean that!

Congrats, Bagpipes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is so cool!!!!!!!!!!! Gonna have to get a copy…why did you pick such a plain pen name like “Tom Watson”? I mean – you don’t even look like a Tom.

Love that – truly worthy of plagiarizing! Temple Lady - - more Blue Forms!!!!!!! We need to get them out to our people immediately!...uhm…do we have any people?

Polar Bear, work with Another Spot on finding me a bus with an 8 Track Tape Player - and see Temple Lady for a 2727-TWTBTBF form.

Context of this passage is talking about UNDERSTANDING what is said – hence the need for interpretation. If what is spoken cannot be understood – the mind is unfruitful – doesn't get anything out of it. How can you equate "unfruitful" with "bypasses"?... Husband: "I had an unfruitful day at work today." Wife: "Oh my, you were bypassed?!" Husband: "No, I was bypassed last week when Fred got that promotion instead of me. I meant I didn't make the company any money today." Also, why is "unfruitful" used only in reference to tongues? Are any of the other manifestations ever referenced by the term "unfruitful"? Charismatic theology that tends to project into the text its own beliefs - can be a very misleading way of interpreting the Bible. I Corinthians 14: 9-17 NASB 9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be (V)speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a (W)barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the (X)edification of the church. 13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 (Y)What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will (Z)sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say (AA)the "Amen" at your (AB)giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not (AC)edified.