T-Bone

Which is exactly my point in post #113 – and how any good manipulator works. A manipulator really can’t make you do anything [usurp your free will]. But a good manipulator can tug on your emotions and fears so it looks to you like the only correct choice or best choice is the one they present. Yes – your free will is completely in play – but you are making choices based on incomplete or deceptive information or someone else's suggestion of priorities. TWI followers are free to decide their own priorities – however TWI has a knack for portraying their agenda as having the highest priority – “now you wouldn’t want to disappoint God would you?” The folks you mentioned who never went WOW or Corps sound like pretty smart people…I know…I know…Oldies Man, you’re trying to let me save face. I appreciate that but – I need to face the music. It’s my own fault for going in the Corps. Shame on me for being stupid enough to believe TWI’s BS…Alright, alright…let me come clean here…There’s a pattern to my stupidity. It all started when I took PFAL – figured I didn’t need the ol’ brain after that. I would just ask God what I should do – funny how it always centered around TWI’s agenda.

Free, sorry to see you go and sorry to hear the doctor’s news. You have my thoughts and prayers….Hope you do come back to visit sometime.

I agree - there was never a usurpation of free will. There was often a manipulation of free will, though. TWI would use any means possible to pressure you, coerce you, shame you, trick you into thinking it was God's will for you to go WOW or Corps…Yeah – and people should count the cost – which may include the cost of leaving your spouse or family behind if they don't want to "do God's will." And speaking of commitments – it's a shame that many couples sacrificed their marriage [breaking a scared commitment to God – a covenant ordained by God way back in Genesis] being deceived by TWI into thinking a commitment to an organization had higher priority than their marriage...But you're right – it's my fault for letting TWI suck away my time, energy, finances, intelligence, creativity, and even the love for wife and family. I failed to use my brain. I should have checked out things for myself – instead of listening to the lies for the Corps program. Like when they told me the Indiana Campus was an accredited college – and finding out later when I went to a professional resume company – that it wasn't…Guess I should have thought things through better…er…uhm…even just applying a little bit of thought would have helped. But then again…they probably wouldn't have considered me Corps material with that kind of attitude. You may be closer to the truth calling for people to think things through – than ol' Nietzsche. A smart person would have enough sense not to put himself in a situation that could jeopardize life, limb and fortune. As we find in Proverbs a wise man has great power and increases his strength – not by throwing caution to the wind – but by applying his mind! Proverbs 24:3-5 NIV 3 By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established; 4 through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures. 5 A wise man has great power, and a man of knowledge increases strength

Hi, Water Buffalo - and I guess in keeping with the spirit of this thread I feel compelled to say, "bless you."

You know you’re in TWI if you: Own a talking wristwatch that announces, “This day and time and hour is…” Try to get out of contracts by saying italicized words are not in the original text. Suggested your local paper change the Want Ads section to Needs and Wants Parallel Ads. Were caught replacing the Permanent Resident Green Cards with PFAL Green Cards at local Immigration Office. Always answer a question with a question on any test. Remembered the Way in your will. Were arrested for cutting the word “Trinity” out of every book and magazine at the local library. Thanks, Groucho and folks for a fun thread!!!!

MarkOMalley, you have my thoughts and prayers. If there's anything else I can do - let me know - love, peace, wisdom and courage coming your way - T-Bone

Yup

Great input everyone – thanks!!!!!!!!!! I have been thinking a lot about everyone's recent posts, especially Bolshevik's question in post # 142 – the effects of sin on the conscience. It also appears we are all in agreement on there being some "training" or assimilating role we assume – affecting our own conscience in some way. Listener – you mentioned in post # 146 – lumping conscience with other aspects of the mind. I haven't been as concerned about picking the conscience out of the psychological line up – as in seeing how it all works together. One of my favorite authors Jay Adams, addresses the effects of sin to the mind in many of his books on Christian counseling. Thought I'd post some excerpts from one of his books that I think will go well with the flow of things. Adams has a unified view of our psychological makeup – the way I tend to view it also. Being a technician, I often jump back and forth between the system and components when troubleshooting. When there is a failure in one component, it has an impact on the system. From More than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling by Jay Adams, 1979, pages 114-115: "…In modern thought, the Western view equates heart with feelings or emotion…Consequently, this concept has carried over into preaching and writing, where, e.g., "head knowledge" is set over against "heart knowledge." The former is said to be merely intellectual understanding and assent, whereas the latter denotes a commitment with feeling. But the distinction is unbiblical. Nowhere in the Bible is the head set over against the heart… …The reason why head and heart are not set over against one another in the Scriptures is that the term heart includes the intellectual side [ cf. Job 12:24; 36:13; Jer. 17:9, 10; 23:20; Ezek. 11:5; Hos. 7:11; Matt. 13:15; Mark 7:19-23; 11:23; Luke 5:22; Acts 5:4; II Cor. 9:7; Heb. 4:12; James 1:26…]…In the Bible, human beings are said to talk, reason, plan, understand, think doubt, perceive, make mistakes, purpose, intend, etc. in their hearts… …'What then, is set over against the heart, if anything?' The answer is always, without exception, the visible, outer man. Worship that one gives with his lips [outer, visible, audible worship] when his heart [inner, invisible, inaudible] is far from God is a good example of this contrast [Matt. 15:8]… …It is natural, therefore, to identify the heart with the conscience, as some writers do [cf. Heb. 10:22; I John 3:19-21]. And it is in the heart that the fool [Ps. 14;1] or evil slave [Luke 12:45] speaks to himself. From the heart [which is the source or treasure-house from which the outer words and actions spring] come sins [Matt. 15:18 ff.; Mark 7:19-23; Luke 6:45]. May sin in his heart even though he has not sinned outwardly [Matt. 5:28]…To believe with the heart and to confess with the mouth [Rom. 10:8-10] leads to salvation because both inner and outer man conform – there is a genuine [not hypocritical or only outward] faith…" End of excerpts I see a merged process happening in the conscience – I think we evaluate the moral implications of plans and actions partly from something intrinsic [like an embedded template] and partly from what we have assimilated. From The Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling, Edited by David Benner and Peter Hill, 1985, pages 253-254: "…The processes we know as conscience develop out of the complex interaction between one's God-given moral potential, which is rooted in the image of God and progressively unfolds with the development of one's cognitive capacities; one's own desires and attempts to merit acceptance and avoid punishment; and the impact of socializing agents, particularly parents… …Beyond humanity's innate moral propensity, the unique shape of one's conscience is highly influenced by one's interaction with significant socializing agents…As these ideals and expectations are internalized and merged with one's innate moral awareness and individual desires, they come together to form what is generally called the ideal self or the ego ideal. This set of ideals becomes the standard by which one judges himself or herself. These deep beliefs may or may not be congruent with the truth about human moral potential. In the case of inappropriate models of internalization, the dictates of conscience form a dilemma for the person. To act against conscience is to violate one's own psychological functioning, which is designed to lead the individual into the good and to avoid evil. Yet, to follow the dictates of an ill-informed conscience may lead to a life of unnecessary suffering and moral ruin…" End of excerpts

Certainly the conscience is a popular topic among theologians, philosophers and psychologists. While this current discussion has been interesting [Bolshevik, Another Spot and Eyes Open – I do want to think about that stuff – interesting!] – I'd like to re-visit the incident that was my inspiration for this thread [the pajama party / porn video with VPW as master of ceremonies. Latecomers to this thread who have just jumped into the middle of things can review post # 1 and 16 for the details – although I do recommend reading everyone's posts – great input by all! My thanks to all contributors!!!!]. I gather from most of the folks on this thread that the conscience is of primary importance – not only a concern over its proper maintenance but the impact it has on decision-making. If I take the sordid details out of the scene – and merely analyze the dynamics of what happened – I find a big issue is involved. Well…from my Christian viewpoint it's a big problem, anyway. Matter of fact – I think we could take a lot of the details away [who was in charge of the meeting, what was done, how many people were involved] and reduce the whole incident down to something simple: Person A did something to offend Person B. The Bible does address situations where even if the actions by one Christian are not sinful in and of themselves - the negative impact those actions have on another Christian are still considered to be sinful on the part of the offending party - according to the Bible. Romans 14 NASB 1Now (A)accept the one who is (B)weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2(C)One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is (D)weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to (E)regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to (F)judge the one who eats, for God has (G)accepted him. 4(H)Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5(I)One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be (J)fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he (K)gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us (L)lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore (M)whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end (N)Christ died and lived again, that He might be (O)Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you (P)regard your brother with contempt? For (Q)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "(R)AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, (S)EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then (T)each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us not (U)judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--(V)not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. 14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that (W)nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who (X)thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer (Y)walking according to love (Z)Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16Therefore (AA)do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17for the kingdom of God (AB)is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and (AC)peace and (AD)joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who in this way (AE)serves Christ is (AF)acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then [a]we (AG)pursue the things which make for peace and the (AH)building up of one another. 20(AI)Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food (AJ)All things indeed are clean, but (AK)they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21(AL)It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who (AM)does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23But (AN)he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. I Corinthians 10:23-33 NASB 23(AL)All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things (AM)edify. 24Let no one (AN)seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. 25(AO)Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; 26(AP)FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. 27If (AQ)one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, (AR)eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake. 28But (AS)if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; 29I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for (AT)why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, (AU)why am I slandered concerning that for which I (AV)give thanks? 31Whether, then, you eat or drink or (AW)whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32(AX)Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to (AY)the church of God; 33just as I also (AZ)please all men in all things, (BA)not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, (BB)so that they may be saved. Matthew 18:6, 7 NASB 6but (D)whoever (E)causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For (F)it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

Have a good one, Jonny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Listener - GSC can be addicting...Ah the power of thinking out loud with other folks...a lot better than that ol' TWI group-think.

Great post, Listener!!!!!!!!!!! In my opinion, the mind is the best researching tool we have! Nothing wrong with thinking out loud either. Many times I throw my thoughts into the mix with the express desire that folks will check out my thinking process - expose a faulty bit of reasoning or misuse of Scripture. I'm concerned about doing my best thinking and really don't try to win people over to my way of thinking. I'm not selling any books or recruiting followers.

Yikes! I've just finished reading a book on the Nephilim...and yes the tribulation period will indeed be a scary time!!!!!!

Neither case was a moral dilemma. In neither incident did God direct them to do anything that was morally wrong. Ananias was apprehensive about going to minister to a man that was a well-known persecutor of Christians: Acts 9:10-16 NASB 10 Now there was a disciple at (N)Damascus named (O)Ananias; and the Lord said to him in (P)a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from (Q)Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, 12and he has seen [a]in a vision a man named Ananias come in and (R)lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight." 13But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, (S)how much harm he did to (T)Your saints at Jerusalem; 14and here he (U)has authority from the chief priests to bind all who (V)call on Your name." 15But the Lord said to him, "Go, for (W)he is a chosen [b]instrument of Mine, to bear My name before (X)the Gentiles and (Y)kings and the sons of Israel; 16for (Z)I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." Peter was hung up on the Israelite's dietary restrictions that separated Jews from things that would defile them [like the Gentiles]. It appears the whole purpose of God's vision to Peter was to show him God was lifting specific dietary restrictions - symbolic of maintaining a separation of Jews [clean animals] from Gentiles [unclean animals]. Peter's misgivings were over the ceremonial law – not the moral law. In fact – what God was communicating to Peter was more in line with the intent of the moral law – to love God and neighbor – even if your neighbor is a Gentile. Acts 10:9-17 NASB 9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, (N)Peter went up on (O)the housetop about (P)the [e]sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he (Q)fell into a trance; 11and he saw (R)the sky opened up, and an [f]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and [g]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" 14But Peter said, "By no means, (S)Lord, for (T)I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15Again a voice came to him a second time, "(U)What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. 17Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what (V)the vision which he had seen might be, behold, (W)the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate; 18and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19While Peter was reflecting on (X)the vision, (Y)the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. 20"But get up, go downstairs and (Z)accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself."

What if TWI's interpretation of the written Word [the Bible] or supposed "direct revelation from God" conflicts with one's conscience? Yeah God and His truth does not change – but TWI sure had a knack for twisting the Scripture around to justify any obvious or covert agenda. It was moral-subjectivity – TWI promoted that big time! Sin no longer was sin – it was demoted to "broken fellowship" – softened to ease the blow to the conscience – with a little emphasis on how it hurt God Almighty – and no regard to what harm it brought to people – how convenient! And let's use some good and solid "biblical reasoning" – like VPW's classic: "all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king – oh yeah, look at David in the Old Testament. Man-oh-gawd – king of Israel – same thing." I think a dependence on the Bible with no regard for the conscience is by far a much more treacherous method. Paul stresses the importance of following the dictates of one's conscience in regards to matters not specifically addressed in Scripture - Romans 14:1-23. In all honesty – what do you think a God-fearing Christian will do if they weigh a matter in their conscious and act accordingly? "Hmmm, the Bible says 'thou shalt not steal' – but it doesn't say anything about me borrowing something indefinitely." …I know that sounds funny – but I can remember TWIts oblivious to simple courtesies and honesty as they blithely handled incidental things: like finding a watch on the ground and gleefully saying "oh wow – look – God blessed me with a really nice watch" instead of turning it in to lost and found…Here's the great TWI sedative to the conscience in a nutshell: "Don't trust your brain, don't trust your heart, don't trust your conscience. Only trust "The Word" and direct revelation. Please turn off all intellectual processes during your flight…the captain will inform you when you're supposed to think…Our complimentary beverage is Drambui and our in-flight movie is Debbie does Rover."

I think Romans 1:18-2:29 is really about God's anger against wicked people who rebel against the truth, against righteousness, against God's standards. Romans 1 & 2 reads more like a court case with references to a law and the citing of specific infractions. Which hits me as the conscience being more of a law-observer – than a lawgiver. The Online Etymology Dictionary says "conscience" comes from the Latin - conscientia "knowledge within oneself, a moral sense." It seems to me that in Romans 1 & 2 Paul builds his case around an assumption that there resides in man a moral awareness of a preset standard and paints a picture of depravity with morally-loaded terms of all those who ignore…openly defy God's known standards – whether written in the law or in the heart. Romans 1:18-32 NASB 18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures. 24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips, 30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them. Romans 2:1-16 NASB 1Therefore you have (A)no excuse, (B)everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which (C)you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, (D)O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of (E)the riches of His (F)kindness and (G)tolerance and (H)patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart (I)you are storing up wrath for yourself (J)in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6(K)who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by (L)perseverance in doing good seek for (M)glory and honor and (N)immortality, (O)eternal life; 8but to those who are (P)selfishly ambitious and (Q)do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be (R)tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew (S)first and also of the Greek, 10but (T)glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek. 11For (V)there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned (W)without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is (X)not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (Y)instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show (Z)the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, (AA)according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. In Romans 2:14 "instinctively" is the Greek word physis, Strong's # 5449, 14 occurrences. Renn's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words says "In the first instance [Romans 1:26 "natural"], physis conveys the idea of "nature" meaning that which is created by God." In The Believer's Commentary by William MacDonald a comment on Romans 2:14 reads as follows: "2:14…Now Paul explains that although the law was not given to the Gentiles, yet they have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. They know instinctively that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, and murder. The only commandment they would not know intuitively is the one concerning the Sabbath; that one is more ceremonial than moral."

Yes – that is true – if God hadn't told them it was wrong – they wouldn't have known that! BUT – once they knew it was wrong – what kept them from disobeying God? When we use the term "guide" or refer to a guidance system like on an airplane – the mission-critical factor for any guide or guidance system is that they accurately identify real reference points – to stay on course. A compass shows which way is north. Global Positioning Systems show where something actually is in relation to other objects in a real world. Guidance systems do not invent reality – but are a means of negotiating within reality. I believe the conscience was already in Adam and Eve – before the Fall. It served as a guidance system to keep them on course with God's flight plan. Knowing that a certain tree was forbidden was a reference point to indicate that is way off course. If the conscience were likened to a simple compass [automatically showing the way north – or what is right – obeying God in this application] – then any deviation from the direction it indicates is a case of user-error – nothing wrong with the compass. What was the primary purpose of man? Did it have anything to do with loving God, trusting God, obeying God, respecting the image of God in others? Would you consider those things reference points already set by the Creator? I think man was born to do those things! In my opinion, whatever it is inside of man – that is like a "reality-seeking scan device", an "internal program" that attempts to negotiate us through life – locks on to reference points that bear resemblance to an internal template – and we are drawn to them. I see the conscience as a guidance system in that it will have "positive" and "negative" functions - it will indicate the right direction and warn us when we're off course - and so holds a pivotal role when we contemplate doing something or evaluate what we've already done. People are usually drawn to laws, policies, procedures, customs, traditions, etc. that are compatible with the nobler things of life: preserving life, protecting life, preserving/protecting ownership, respecting other people, promoting honesty, integrity and harmony, etc. It doesn't matter what one's religion is or even if they're an atheist – it's my opinion that these preferences are already built into humans – in the very fabric of our being.

LikeanEagle – Cry of the Soul is a great book – our soul/emotions reconnecting to God. Hammeroni – that's some good prose! NottaWayfer – I agree – we all enabled those monsters! Belle – thanks for your great input on emotions and the great commandments! When Jesus said everything hangs on love – in my opinion – that's the only way any of us can truly follow the commands of the Bible. Doojable – "What a dose of spiritual valium!" – great line!!!!!!!!! Jeaniam – I think the only thing the Psychology dictionary describes is the function of the conscience. Reasons for whether it is innate or learned are not given in the definition. The fact that they are internalized only acknowledges that they are within the person. How they got in there is another matter. Bolshevik – I'm think it worked that way – Adam and Eve intellectually KNEW right from wrong before they sinned – they knew what God said about the one tree. But after they sinned they knew it experientially. Before they sinned, the conscience was exercised to refrain from eating of the fruit of a certain tree - they knew it was wrong to do. After they sinned, their conscience was struck with shame and guilt – they knew what they did was wrong. Java Jane – Thanks for sharing Romans 14 from The Message. I like reading that version sometimes just for the thought provoking aspect of the paraphrase. By the way, welcome to GSC…and that's a really big cup of coffee you have there…now put the cup down…step away from the cup . Free Soul – great post, linking conscience and logic and the balance of grace and truth. Word Wolf – As usual, thanks for all your input, bro…I'm still thinking about your post # 19: "An "American Indian" once explained what a conscience is. "It is a three-pointed thing in here. (*gestures to his stomach*) When I do wrong, it turns, and the points hurt me. But if I KEEP doing wrong, then the points wear down, and they don't hurt so much anymore." …It would be interesting to study how other cultures describe the function of the conscience. Temple Lady – I liked your points in post # 87 – especially: "…They facilitated a lock step mentality rather than motivating us to freely think, ponder and expand our understanding of how Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ had a plan for each person and thereby gaining an individual understanding of what is necessary in our own personal walk…" - great post! That goes along with one of my ideas running in the background when I drafted post # 86 that you referred to is that it's easier to divert than stop a moving object. In some martial arts tactics when an opponent charges you – rather than mustering up brute force to stop them you merely pull them past you, around you or in some way divert their oncoming force. I think the tempter's voice works this way – a personalized invite that beckons us to something we already have a weakness for. The ploy is not to stop us dead in our tracks but to steer us off course. Another Spot – thanks! I'm still having nightmares [just kidding – but your idea is scary] over your statement in post # 71: "Here's a weird thought: what would the world be like if no one had a conscience?"

I think Saturday evening might be good...that's my self-structure day.

Listener, thanks for your input on this thread [and to everyone else for that matter – great posts everyone!] – and you have really brought up something interesting with this post. In going through some commentaries, biblical language references, and Christian counseling books I was struck by the relevance of your statement to our topic. I know I'm prone to going all over the map just to tell someone how to get across the street [ah, the beauty of verbosity ] but I think this is one of those things that the more details you look into – the more you see of the bigger picture and with sharper clarity to boot. What I'm getting a sense of from everyone's posts and the following info I've garnered from a few books – is that the conscience is perhaps more than one little section of the brain – a very strict compartmentalized view of our psychological makeup. If I were to frame an analogy of the conscience from my studies thus far, I'd think along the lines of a computer operating system and the interactive dynamics of how it all works together. There's the basic hardware/software of the machine itself. These are things intrinsic to the system. Performance and productivity revolve around how I use it – by my data entry, correct commands, installing patches, etc. The reason I'm drawn to this computer analogy is because I'm not an IT person and don't have a clue how all of the hardware/software of a PC is integrated to do a number of tasks . My concept of the conscience leans more to something that may be intertwined with several intellectual functions – and would have innate properties [that cannot be deleted or changed] and "customization" or interactive features whereby I have an influence on whether or not it functions properly or to the extent available. This post probably belongs more in the Doctrinal forum [like in the Spirit, Soul and Body thread] than here…Guess I'll leave it here because I started this thread with the intent of analyzing the practical consequence of TWI's doctrine – and specifically its impact on the believer's decision-making process. Before going into details of our role with the two great commandments – I thought it would be appropriate to mention a dictionary definition of "conscience" that repeats the two views that came up on this thread - something innate or something that is learned. From The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber, third edition 2001, page 147: "Conscience. A reasonably coherent set of internalized moral principles that provides evaluations of right and wrong with regard to acts either performed or contemplated. Historically, theistic views aligned conscience with the voice of God and hence regarded it as innate. The contemporary view is that the prohibitions and obligations of conscience are learned; indeed, Freud's characterization of the superego was an attempt to provide an account of its origins, development and manner of functioning." Looking at the references to the two great commandments you'll notice they actually mention five different aspects of a person: heart, soul, mind, strength, and understanding: Matthew 22:34-40 NASB 34(Z)But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced (AA)the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38"This is the great and foremost commandment. 39"The second is like it, '(AD)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"(AE)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Mark 12:28-34 NASB 28(Q)One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and (R)recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(S)HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30(T)AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, '(U)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32The scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that (V)HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM; 33(W)AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, (X)is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." (Y)After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions. Towards a biblical definition of "psychological" terms used in the great commandments. The following list is by no means exhaustive or authoritative – but offers some technical details for those who want to do further study. I used The Word Study New Testament edited by Ralph Winter and Roberta Winter and The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter, The Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, edited by Stephen Renn, The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to the Bible, 2001 by James Strong, fully revised and corrected by John Kohlenberger III and James Swanson, Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, 2006, editor William Mounce for identifying and defining the Greek words, and their equivalent in the Hebrew language when noted. 1. Heart. Greek word kardia, Strong's # 2588, 160 occurrences, and is a true dynamic equivalent for the Hebrew terms leb [Strong's # 3820] and lebab [Strong's # 3824]. Renn's Expository Dictionary says kardia refers to the center or seat of inner being and passions, location of one's deepest thoughts [Like 2:19, 51; I Corinthians 14:25], kardia also found in contexts where human heart is viewed in a negative light [Luke 1:51; Matt. 9:4; 12:34; 13:15; Mark 7:21; John 13:2; Acts 5:3]. In more general terms, the human heart is portrayed as the object of the knowledge of God, as the receptor of divine revelation [Matthew 13:19; Luke 16:15; Romans 2:15; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16]. II Corinthians 3:3; Luke 24:25; Ephesians 4:18; Hebrews 3:8, 12, 15;4:7 issue a solemn plea not to harden one's heart against the promptings of God's Spirit. For as Galatians 4:6 also declares, the human heart is the location [metaphorically speaking] of the indwelling Spirit of God in the life of the believer [cf. also Romans 10:8]. 2. Soul. Greek word psyche, Strong's # 5590, 105 occurrences, an approximate dynamic equivalent for the Hebrew term nephesh [Strong's # 5315]. According to Renn, psyche has a "narrower semantic field than its Hebrew equivalent, and it is translated primarily as "soul," "life" in the large majority of these contexts. This Greek term indicates, as does the Hebrew, that the "soul" is not to be distinguished from the "body" in an absolute sense, for the Scriptures teach that humans are whole, integral beings. There is, however, evidence clearly suggesting that there is a duality within a person's constitution – humans have a physical body that will perish and decay as well as a "spirit" or "soul" that is immortal and subject to divine judgment for good or ill at the end of time…psyche also refers to the "soul" of a person, referring to his or her "life" – the animating life force, sustaining earthly existence…[Matthew 2:20; 16:25; Acts 20:10; Romans 16:4]…Psyche also indicates the "soul" as that unique, immortal essence of all human beings, equated in many ways to a person's "spirit," which has an eternal body that will not decay after physical death [cf. Matthew 10:28; Acts 2:27; 13:17; James 1:21; 5:20; I Peter 1:9; 2:25; Revelation 6:9; 20:4]. Related to the above sense is the meaning "soul" [in relation to people], indicating the inner spiritual, psychological, and emotional center of one's being. This is occasionally identified as the "heart" or "mind". The usage of psyche with this shade of meaning does not imply an eternal destiny, but rather an inner quality of life on earth. Such a perspective is illustrated in the following contexts, where psyche refers to promised rest for one's soul [Matthew 11:29]; and to people's "soul" as "heart" or "mind" [Acts 14:2; 15:24; Ephesians 6:6; Philippians 1:27; II Peter 2:8]. Elsewhere, psyche refers to one's "soul" in relation to one's "entire being", in an undifferentiated sense…[Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30 ff.; Luke 10:27]…In I Thessalonians 5:23 there is a rare reference to one's "soul" as distinct from "body" and "spirit". The context here, however would probably suggest an emphasis on the profound relationship between the human physical and spiritual constitution within the phenomenon of the "whole person", rather than indicating human beings merely as a composite of three separate parts. A similar reference is also made in Hebrews 4:12; 6:19]." 3. Mind. Greek word dianoia, Strong's # 1271, 13 occurrences. Renn's Expository Dictionary says it "means "mind," indicating that faculty as the seat of human reason, understanding, emotion, and will. In most of the contexts dianoia may also be translated "heart". The command to love God with all one's "mind" is linked to "heart" and "soul" as well. The clear implication is that one is to love God with one's whole being. It is the greatest command of all [cf. Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27]. Linked to this all-embracing command is the observation in Hebrews 8:10; 10:16 that God has placed his law within the hearts and minds of his people as part of the essence of the promised new covenant renewal, accomplished through the finished redemptive work of Christ. In these two texts, dianoia ["mind"] is used synonymously with kardia ["heart"]." 4. Strength. Greek word ischys, Strong's #2479, 11 occurrences. Renn and Mounce say it denotes strength, power and might. Mounce mentions Jesus calling on the faithful to love the Lord with all their "strength" [Mark 12:30, 33; Like 10:27] and ischys is also used of God's power at work in believers [Ephesians 1:19; 6;10] and at his second coming [iI Thessalonians 1:19], of human strength or ability given by God , and of angelic strength [iI Peter 2:11]. 5. Understanding. Greek word synesis, Strong's # 4907, 7 occurrences. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary says "…synesis refers to spiritual understanding, insight. It is the child Jesus' synesis that amazes the crowds when he answers questions in the temple [Luke 2:47]. Paul prays that God will give the Colossians spiritual wisdom and "understanding" [Colossians 1:9] so they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord [Colossians 1:10]…Paul encourages Timothy to reflect on his teaching for in doing so, the Lord will give him insight into all this" [iI Timothy 2:7]. See also Mark 12:33 and I Corinthians 1:19." I think the role of the conscience may touch upon all five aspects of one's psychological makeup. Intellectually, I gather from the ten commandments that murder is wrong. Emotionally I became outraged over the recent news of 32 people being murdered at Virginia Tech. I KNOW that's wrong! I also know my dad's horror stories from being a medic in WWII had a profound effect on shaping and re-enforcing the sanctity of life for me. I am a gentle person and somehow doing violence to another human being is completely foreign to me – going against my nature. Is that merely a viewpoint I've adopted – or more of a conviction gained by spiritual perception of people made in the likeness of God? The five terms listed above speak of the ability to express my love to God and people...perhaps an unconscious process at times - maybe overt at other times. But factors are involved that influence my decision-making process to obey God...to compassionately reach out to help someone, or to refrain from doing harm to someone.

No offense - this makes no sense

I have no problem with what you said – and I really appreciate your post! Because I have realize another dynamic that is at play when I analyze TWI doctrine. Part of the delivery system is the way they model "The Word." This is a big deal according to Jesus. The following passages show that even IF the teacher has "The Word", "the rightly-divided Word"…or for those Christians that speak English "The Bible" – and he does not practice what he preaches - [or for you TWI folks "walk the talk"] there is a big problem with that teacher – and I don't think they should be teaching! Matthew 23:1-3 NASB 1(A)Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "(B)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. Matthew 5:17-20 NASB 17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That is my whole point in post # 1 and 16. We don't have to get into the myriad of erroneous "textbook" doctrines of TWI. And really - even if PFAL was 100 % "rightly-divided Word" [or 100 % Bible truth for you English speaking Christians out there] the REAL harm comes in how it is applied [as Jesus pointed out]. VPW does not model the Bible in PFAL – he "teaches" from it. When you get to see him "backstage" [like Way Corps or Staff] you get to see him model "the Word" – as I related with the pajama party/porn video incident. Your experience is valid – so is mine. From what you said I take it you had some leadership that modeled more of the true Christian lifestyle than my favorite leader at the time, VPW. His influence – the way he modeled Christian living – that is what dulled the conscience of those that revered him.

Yeah - I've got the same questions - I dunno...but I've been thinking about it more since I read your post...gonna let that percolate awhile...browse through some commentaries and systematic theology books...er...uhm...probably come back more confused .

Adam and Eve had each other to love...And Word Wolf made me think of something as far as time line in the creation of man - I tend to think God put some forethought into the design - perhaps before Genesis 1:28.

My research staff [which is just me re-reading this thread and having Belle's post knock me over like a ton of bricks] has recommended I revise my response to Johniam's statement. I think Jesus already addressed this issue - our minds were designed to love God and neighbor. Thank you, Belle. Matthew 22:35-40 NASB 35 One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38"This is the great and foremost commandment. 39"The second is like it, '(AD)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"(AE)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."