T-Bone

That would make it a semicolon cleanse.

I tend to think it is because we do love ourselves that we are saddened by such things [a fallen world, sin, evil, etc.]. Anyone who has a loved one becomes upset if any harm befalls them – I think that applies to self-love as well – it's natural to love ourselves. So, I don't think it's a matter of getting motivated to love self. Ephesians makes reference to this self-love - and speaks of it as the standard for gauging how husbands should treat their wives. Ephesians 5:28-33 NIV 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Thanks Waysider, for the additional info on Bill Evans…I have a few Miles Davis CDs – think I’ll have to get the one with Bill Evans…Thanks Ala, for the Nora interview reference – I love hearing stuff like that…and it’s sad to hear about the loss of Scott Lafora. Watching him play, I was enthralled by his mastery of the bass.

Some twigs have PFAL karaoke parties…turn the volume down on the video and let the spirit of vic move yah!

Oh man, Waysider - you had me at the upright bass player! Thanks for the Bill Evans clip.

Back when I first took PFAL [1974] I believed it was the greatest thing on earth for helping a Christian understand the Bible. Thought so for the 12 years I was involved with TWI. That’s only because I used TWI’s intellectual standards to form an opinion…The problem with that is – TWI’s intellectual standards are way below par – not only in reference to biblical scholarship but even in plain old reasoning. The fact that VPW plagiarized most of his material from various sources has indeed produced a patchwork theology – requiring students to compartmentalize any tenets that are inconsistent with others in the whole framework of thought. I think a Christian would be a lot better off checking out Bible study books from legitimate authors. One of my favorites is Understanding the Bible by John Stott. A cheap little paperback that does a lot more for activating the Bible student’s mind, has a common sense approach to Scripture, doesn’t front a particular agenda and encourages the Christian to develop a conscientious belief system from their studies [in other words you explore and experience the truth personally – and don’t conform to the cookie-cutter mentality prevalent in cults]. Personal study tends to be self-directed – you analyze rather than absorbing like a typical PFAL student.

Happy birthday, Rascal !!!!!! here's a picture from one of your birthday parties - a long time ago - - when you were just a little rascal.

Holy cow – I had a dream one time about an Hibachi Bass – I’m serious - talked about it on the guitar thread. That would be perfect for the weenie roast/jam session. Definitely would have some hot riffs going down. “Wow that bass player is smokin’…well…uhm…actually more like he’s grilling.”…trying to imagine the technique involved – I’ll have to play while laying on my back so the dogs & burgers will have a level grilling surface. Will probably have to wear cooking mitts – so you won’t be hearing any tight arpeggios from me – more like a general muddy whale gargling sound…I might try a Jimmy Paige trick – instead of using a bow to strike the strings I’ll whip up on ‘em with a spatula.

You know you're in TWI if you: Crossed out every occurrence of the word "problem" in your math book and wrote "opportunity" above it. Time career changes around The Rock of Ages and Corps Week. Choose house/apartment to rent based solely on size of living room and ample parking for guests. Think surfing the net is trafficking in devil spirits. Wonder when your believing for prosperity is going to pay off. Translate in your head ordinary conversations with a neighbor into ministry jargon – just to keep it interesting. Are able to cite every PFAL principle behind the success of famous people – past or present. Think speaking in tongues will fix any technical problem [oops, I mean "opportunity"]. Are often tempted to wonder about the exact monetary value of God spitting in your direction.

Thanks for mentioning those passages, Johniam & Jeaniam. John 13:34, 35 NIV 34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. I John 4:19-21 NIV 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. The MacArthur Study Bible carries a similar line of thought in the comments on I John 4: "4:21 This verse summarizes chap. 4 One cannot love God without first loving his fellow believer. A claim to love God is a delusion if not accompanied by unselfish love for other Christians." Thought I'd post some notes from a few commentaries on this passage that I found interesting… The following excerpts from The Gospel & Epistles of John by F.F. Bruce, on verses 19-21 go along the same lines: "…In taking the initiative in loving us, He not only showed us how to love one another [cf.3:11] but He imparted the desire and the power to follow this example of His. Our Lord made it plain that the two great Old Testament commandments of love to God and love to one's neighbor are two sides of one coin [Mark 12:29-31; cf. Luke 10:27 f.], and when He said to His disciples in the upper room, 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments' [John 14:15], He laid down as His new and chief commandment that they should love one another as He loved them, so that everyone would know that they were truly His disciples [John 13:34 f.]…" From The Believer's Bible Commentary, by William MacDonald, on I John 4:20; "John emphasizes the futility of professing to love God while at the same time hating one's brother. As spokes get nearer to the center of the wheel, so they get nearer to one another. Thus, as we get closer to the Lord, the more we will love our fellow believers. Actually, we do not love the Lord a bit more than we love the humblest of His followers. John argues the impossibility of loving God whom we have not seen if we do not love our brothers whom we have seen." From The New Bible Commentary: Revised, edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman, on I John 4:20: "…Love to God is shown by love to man. If one is lacking so is the other. John goes so far as to say that if one does not love his brother he cannot love God. A distinction is made between the brother who is seen and God who is not. To affirm one's love for the unseen while failing to love the seen is to enter the realm of fantasy." And from the Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, edited by Walter Elwell, on I John 4:20: "Another test of love is set forth in verse 20. The phrase if anyone says introduces a false claim [see also 1:6, 8, 10; 2:4, 6, 9], here to love God while hating one's brother. Such a person is a liar about love [cf. about morality, 1:6, 10; 2:4; about doctrine, 2:22; 5:10]. One cannot love the invisible God [the harder thing and not easily tested] if he does not love God's visible image in a brother [the easier thing, easily tested]. Verse 21 completes this section by restating the command to love both God and one's brother as a single command [Mark 12:30-31]. To love God is to obey his command [3:23] to love him and others [Deut. 6:4; Lev. 19:18]."

Hmmm…heavily influenced by Wesley and the Methodists…never would have thunk it. You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan. You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavily by John Wesley and the Methodists. Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 93% Classical Liberal 64% Emergent/Postmodern 64% Reformed Evangelical 46% Fundamentalist 46% Roman Catholic 32% Neo orthodox 29% Charismatic/Pentecostal 21% Modern Liberal 18%

Rainbows Girl, thanks for the clips of Enya and more Celtic Women. And Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons - ah does that bring back memories. I would stand on my brother’s bed so I could see myself in the mirror strumming a badminton racquet and lip-syncing to Walk Like a Man playing on his monaural record player. If you’ve ever heard me sing in a fellowship you’d be thankful I decided to play the bass instead of sing. Why, even to this day people will often say, “he makes that bass guitar sound just like a badminton racquet.”

You know you’re in TWI if the following makes sense to you: I’m my own grandpa. Putting money in a cornucopia makes God spit in your direction. Even if you can’t dance to save your life it may be God’s will for you to star in the Athletes of the Spirit video. Fear is to believing what kryptonite is to Superman. If you jack with the number of those crucified with Jesus, your Bible will fall to pieces. The two best ways to avoid sin are to renew your mind to it or become spiritually mature enough to handle it.

It's funny how you read something and another thought pops into your head. When I read your post for some reason, a line from PFAL popped into my head. It's VPW's litmus test: You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually…And you know me – with a bad habit of trying to tie things together …This may be totally off the wall but here goes… An expert in the law asked Jesus which is the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus' answer is a little out of the ordinary – for the expert asked which ONE was the greatest and Jesus said there were TWO: Matthew 22:34-40 NIV 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." It seems like there's a lot going on between the two great commandments…intertwined somehow…So maybe VPW's litmus test is more of an intellectual approach. But I think a focus on the two great commandments might be a more practical method of self-evaluation. What does the way I treat my neighbor say about how much I love God?...Does that even make sense?…Just thought I'd throw that out there…I'm just fascinated how inexhaustibly rich and deep the two great commandments are – they've come up on a few threads lately.

I tend to think this agape type of love is far and above different from any caricatures of "Christian love" where we are rendered doormats for Jesus. Maybe there's something along the lines of what Bliss was saying in post # 17 – there being a self-preservation drive in us – to maintain and protect ourselves – I think that's a healthy thing…Thinking about the agape love exemplified in Jesus in the gospels – He doesn't hit me as a limp dishrag. Somehow He escaped an angry mob trying to throw Him off a cliff at the beginning of His ministry. Over zeal for His Father's house He – with maybe the frenzy of a madman – drove the moneychangers out! He looked around in anger at the religious leaders who frowned upon helping a man on the Sabbath. …And last but not least, His death on the cross was NOT martyrdom but a sacrifice! He was not a victim but victorious! He allowed that to happen as the only way to redeem mankind…Which makes me think of His words about there being no greater love than laying down your life for another. Yes – there is an aspect of agape love that is capable of self-sacrifice – if need be. True heroes of this world that make the ultimate sacrifice for a noble cause will attest to that. I imagine most true heroes like that didn't harbor a death wish or view their life as something so cheap as to be squandered needlessly.

Thank you Shifra and Jeaniam...I like what everyone has posted on this thread - why start a new one when you've got this one doing a good job covering a lot of ground.

I think there’s a lot in what you say…Maybe we do have the capacity [at least to a certain degree – as finite beings] to love as God loves us because we were made in God’s likeness. Maybe that is why God expects us to follow the two great commandments – we were designed for that purpose. When we fail – perhaps it’s our sinful nature throwing a wrench in things – holding us back from operating at full potential. I think maybe where VPW screwed things up was in his intellectual/dispensational approach to agape. As I said in post 7, Jesus provided vivid tutorials of the way to do things – by what He said and did. [i’m just thinking out loud here] for the Christian, Jesus’ teachings/works become a user manual on how to experience the truth personally. But it doesn’t stop there [at the intellectual level]– as if it were an academic thing. The book becomes a springboard to an encounter with Him. I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.

Mstar1 – your post # 2 stole the show!!!! Hammeroni – interesting tidbit on dictionaries…What’s funny are the things you find around town. Near where I work a law office has the abbreviation for “PARKING” painted on the concrete parking space markers in front of their office – and they all read “PKRNG”. Words and Works – thanks for the Bible errata – great examples of rightly-denying the Word. Temple Lady – I feel the same way about question marks. In fact,,, I recommEnd anytime you are in doUbt about using a question marc at the end of a sEntEncE – _ - _ you cover yourself by adding two?? Bliss – word on the street is you plagiarized your signature from an Egyptian Things-to-do List. DMiller – thanks for bringing Sami’s Ultimate Proofreader’s Oversight here – good stuff. Here’s thr33 points of using gooder grammar;;;,,, 1. Tell them you’re going to use gooder grammar B. Use gooder grammar C. Tell them you used gooder grammar

Johniam, I am wishing you a happy birthday, I am, I am.

Now if I were overseeing gooder grammar and PUNctuation - , things would be donE a lot differently? When I say "overseeing" I literally mean "seeing over." It's just not seeing outside the box – but specifically above the box./! Some people may have a way with words::: but I like to have my way with the words…I reMember that fateful day when I actually heard the voice of PUNctuation. That's right…audibly – just like I'm speaking to you write now {through an ectoplasmic representation of my (s)elf embedded in this very post #}.;. One December day / as I was reading a news brief in a local paper about snow being on the gas pumps of a convenience stor [sic] [well actually that's "sick" – most convenience stores make me sick] in Aspen – that little dude at the end of the sentence [i'm alluding to the period] said "end of the line, Buster." And now \\\\ if you will accompany me down the slippery road of gooder grammar and PUNctuation – I will heretofore agitate the agitatable ones by showing a flagrant disregard for Wholly Wit by twisting certain alleged PUNctifications into something a little more stupefying. I don't think the question mark gets enough air time – and when used in the following passage from Luke 23 really adds a lot more suspense to the conversation: 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise? I also think we take out that one little comma in the Acts 21 passage – we find the whole situation becomes more dramatic – realizing the people trying to talk Paul out of going to Jerusalem died while talking to him. I think the context will bear this out – in verse 13 Paul said he was willing to die at Jerusalem – they actually wanted to one-up Paul and die right there on the spot. Man, what believing! 12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. 14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying [comma deleted] The will of the Lord be done. I imagine we have a few other proofreader wannabes out there....//||\\....you may proceed....

Welcome back, Shifra. Interesting topic – defining agape. I don’t think TWI’s definition "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household” [even if you drop “in the household”] ever did anything for me…Something that I do wonder about – is that there appears to be an assumption on Jesus’ part about the comprehension level of His audience. He’d throw out certain terms and phrases with an expectation that folks already knew what they meant – like love, forgive, pray, etc. I don’t think it’s a matter of Him “redefining” particular words – but maybe it’s more like He provided vivid tutorials of these words in a practical context – either by parables or His living example. When someone asked Him to elaborate on the commandment to love thy neighbor they asked Him to define “neighbor.” He showed a neighbor to be someone in need and love springing into action to meet that need in the passage of the Good Samaritan. …And thinking about your statement, “To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond” – the Greek word used in “love your neighbor as yourself” is agape. I dunno – maybe it’s splitting hairs – I’m thinking agape is love that is not self-centered rather than saying it implies self-sacrifice. It looks to me like Jesus assumed people already love themselves – and expects us to use that as a template for how to love others. In other words “love your neighbor AS YOU ALREADY LOVE yourself.” I am not sacrificing myself – just not focusing on myself. So maybe it’s love that doesn’t stay self-centered – rather like being centered or starting from the self and moving outwards towards others.

Hey Rainbows Girl, thanks for the Celtic Women clips! I'll have to get a CD of them. I love that different sound…it sort of takes me to another place…like Enya, Moya Brennan and Loreena McKennitt. Dooj, thanks for the Lyle clip. Tonto turned me onto him – love his stuff – especially the Live in Texas CD…very energetic…we've seen him several times – every show was great!

Good one, Dooj - and you just reminded me of something. Remember to bring your fruit to twig but don't act fruity at twig.

I've been thinking about this myself, lately. Maybe not the same questions as yours…but just wondering about all that's involved with forgiveness, the purpose of forgiveness…I've even been working up a draft to start a thread Exploring Forgiveness – but hey – I'm an opportunist – you've already got one started ! So – please forgive me if this stuff is not exactly what you're looking for or rough around the edges…not saying it's the biblical perspective – just things I'm thinking about… Thinking out loud: With your asking "when is forgiveness appropriate?" – my mind thought along the lines of looking for the purpose of forgiveness. Forgiveness implies a trespass has been committed and needs resolution. I do think for the Christian, forgiveness is one of the core elements that maintains a healthy relationship with God and people. To think that all forgiveness does is alleviate guilt or liability is to ignore the bigger picture. Forgiveness involves at least two persons – an offended party and the offender. The bigger picture is the relationship between the two – the commerce between two hearts – or lack thereof. The Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney Hunter, 1990, page 438 has this on forgiveness: "…Forgiveness always has a social context. It is a transaction between God and humanity, between two or more persons, or even between two or more "selves" in the developmental history of one person. Forgiveness is not the equivalent of reconciliation, however; it is the means by which barriers to reconciliation [which may or may not follow] are removed." Perhaps one could consider the church discipline recommended by Paul in his first letter to Corinthians as the opposite of forgiveness. Paul reproved the Corinthians for bragging about how "forgiving" they were towards a blatant sin that would devastate the local church. I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b] By the time II Corinthians was written – this disciplinary action of the church was successful! The offender had repented – it was time to grant forgiveness. II Corinthians 2:1-11 NIV 1 So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved? 3 I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you. 5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. When is it appropriate to withhold forgiveness? I don't know. It appears Paul's motivation in I Corinthians was concern over the negative impact the blatant sin would have on the entire local church. It seems the withholding of forgiveness [don't know if that's the right way to put it] in I Corinthians did something to bring about a change in the heart of the offender. The whole situation strikes me as unusual – a double whammy. In the first letter, Paul gets all over the Corinthian church for cutting the offender a bunch of slack and recommends they boot him out of church. It could easily be said Paul wasn't a very forgiving person. But when we get to the second letter we see what a positive resolution was wrought for the entire local church through Paul's tough stand against sin and concern for sincerity and truth. II Corinthians 7:8-13 NIV 8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13 By all this we are encouraged. Perhaps they all learned a few things about forgiveness. Maybe when it's appropriate – when it's not. Maybe the reason God expects both sides of the offense to proceed through each "phase" on the forgiveness/reconciliation road is so that everyone's heart truly engages the truth…experiencing the truth personally…removing barriers…healing – a road traveled together by both parties. The whole process is not meant to pay a penalty for sins – as if we are buying/selling forgiveness. The precious blood of our Lord Jesus took care of all the costs! I believe God designed the process to somehow change how both sides relate to each other – for the better! Genuine conflict resolution.

That’s gotta be my favorite!!!!! Thanks, Java Jane!!!!!!!!!!! I’ve been thinking about that one for days!!!!!!!! It really does show their compartmentalized belief system.