T-Bone

In the beginning there was the loan. And the loan was with the Lender. And the Lender became the Loan Shark. As seen on TV! Mark Cuban: “that sounds sacrilegious - and for that reason I’m out”

Deceptive religious-types claim they can limit God – they say this bull-$hit for various reasons. One big thing is obvious…deluded people need to protect themselves from themselves.

What a cheap shot – you throw wierwille under the bus – that’s pretty low since you have been the one claiming PFAL was God-breathed. So, your solution was to disengage your cognitive skills.

What a belittling thing to say about God: “When we get spirit that need on our part is met and God is not limited to our limitations so much” …sounds like wierwille’s stuff right out of the Blue Book, law of believing nonsense – we limit God Almighty?!?! Hogwash! ~ ~ ~ ~ Another issue is repeating the same erroneous speculation wierwille promoted – “When we get spirit”. What do you mean “when”? Everyone has it! We were created in the image and likeness of God. wierwille’s fundamentalism dictated spirit literally died in Genesis 3. BUT Words and concepts of the Bible should be understood in their cultural context. To the Hebrews death meant separation. Physical death – separation of the life-force from the body. Spiritual death – separation of the person from God. I’ve posted on several threads about the biblical writers’ using spirit and soul synonymously – in other words spirit and soul are used interchangeably. If you find the time - you might want to check it out or do your own study with a concordance. NIV, Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Personal Size, Hardcover, Red Letter: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture: Zondervan, Keener, Craig S., Walton, John H.: 0025986447847: Amazon.com: Books ESV Systematic Theology Study Bible, Hardcover: 9781433553370 - Christianbook.com I’d go into it more but I’ve got to clean windows dishes ... ...But I’ll leave you with this: Romans 6, 7, and 8 makes a lot more sense when it’s understood that it’s talking figuratively about being dead to sin and crucified with Christ…it’s not talking about an alternate reality or magical thinking…but rather Paul is talking metaphorically about the inner struggle we are faced with: 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8

OMG! That is hilarious…I looked that up and found out from Wikipedia: Kirby's main method of attack is to inhale enemies and objects into his mouth, after which the player can choose to swallow or spit them out as a star-shaped projectile attack. In addition to running and jumping, Kirby can fly by inflating himself with a mouthful of air and flapping his arms. Flying can be done indefinitely; however, while flying, Kirby's only method of attack is to release the air puff held in his mouth which cancels his flight.

The road to TWI is paved with lots of intentions…your abundant sharing at work.

Thanks for the reminder…when I was drafting that post I kept trying to remember that term …and was thinking Kirby Goes Bananas - no , that’s not it.

I’m going to stick my neck out and say I liked your post; it reminded me of a drive through zoo we did a couple of years ago - I had the moonroof open and a giraffe had its snout poking in! We didn’t have any stretched coffee to offer…oh well… the visit was awesome!

good deal - you've answered your own questions.

Duff-admissions Sadomasochist’s role reversal: You know I am but what are you? Constipation bias: preference for internalizing bull-$hit. Circumvental reasoning: the rationale for getting around an argument.

brainwashing, also called Coercive Persuasion, systematic effort to persuade nonbelievers to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine. A colloquial term, it is more generally applied to any technique designed to manipulate human thought or action against the desire, will, or knowledge of the individual. By controlling the physical and social environment, an attempt is made to destroy loyalties to any unfavorable groups or individuals, to demonstrate to the individual that his attitudes and patterns of thinking are incorrect and must be changed, and to develop loyalty and unquestioning obedience to the ruling party. The term is most appropriately used in reference to a program of political or religious indoctrination or ideological remolding. The techniques of brainwashing typically involve isolation from former associates and sources of information; an exacting regimen requiring absolute obedience and humility; strong social pressures and rewards for cooperation; physical and psychological punishments for non-cooperation ranging from social ostracism and criticism, deprivation of food, sleep, and social contacts, to bondage and torture; and continual reinforcement. The nature of brainwashing as it occurred in communist political prisons received widespread attention after the Chinese Communist victory in 1949 and after the Korean and Vietnamese wars. More recently, its reported use in fringe religious cults and radical political groups has aroused concern in the United States… Deprogramming, or reversing the effects of brainwashing through intensive psychotherapy and confrontation, has proved somewhat successful, particularly with religious cult members. The depth and permanence of changes in attitude and point of view depend on the personality of the individual, degree of motivation to be reformed, and the degree to which the environment supports the new frame of reference… …The theory of groupthink was first developed by the social psychologist Irving Janis in his classic 1972 study, Victims of Groupthink: A Psychological Study of Foreign-Policy Decisions and Fiascoes, which focused on the psychological mechanism behind foreign policy decisions such as the Pearl Harbor bombing, the Vietnam War, and the Bay of Pigs invasion. Janis’s attempt to determine why groups consisting of highly intelligent individuals often made bad decisions renewed interest in the study of how group behaviors, biases, and pressures affect group decision making. Groupthink has become a widely accepted theory particularly in the fields of social psychology, foreign policy analysis, organizational theory, group decision-making sciences, and management. As such, the notion was revived to help explain the interpretation of intelligence information regarding weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq War (2003–11). Janis identified a number of structural conditions leading to groupthink, related to the cohesiveness of a given decision-making group, the formal rules governing its decision-making process, the character of its leadership, the social homogeneity of participants, and the situational context they face. The eight symptoms of groupthink include an illusion of invulnerability or of the inability to be wrong, the collective rationalization of the group’s decisions, an unquestioned belief in the morality of the group and its choices, stereotyping of the relevant opponents or out-group members, and the presence of “mind guards” who act as barriers to alternative or negative information, as well as self-censorship and an illusion of unanimity. Decision making affected by groupthink neglects possible alternatives and focuses on a narrow number of goals, ignoring the risks involved in a particular decision. It fails to seek out alternative information and is biased in its consideration of that which is available. Once rejected, alternatives are forgotten, and little attention is paid to contingency plans in case the preferred solution fails. Proposals to prevent groupthink have included the introduction of multiple channels for dissent in decision making and mechanisms to preserve the openness and heterogeneity of a given group and have focused on the specific type of leadership required to prevent groupthink from occurring. Excerpts from: Suggestion | psychology | Britannica

Harmful and controlling cults isolate followers from society…physically or at least psychologically. I grew up in NY and when I go t involved with TWI, I signed up for their missionary program, WOW, soon after I graduated from PFAL…I was assigned to Washington DC along with 27 other adventurous souls. Moving to a new location with a bunch of strangers might sound crazy to older folks, but I was 22 sort of a free-spirited type with some wanderlust to boot…but still that separation from friends and family can have an impact on one’s well-being. When experts study isolation’s causes and impacts, they distinguish between social isolation and loneliness. Social isolation is an objective lack of social relationships or infrequency of social contact. Loneliness is a subjective feeling of isolation. A person can be socially isolated but not feel lonely. A person can also feel lonely when they are surrounded by people. Nonetheless, isolation and loneliness are very much linked. Studies of loneliness’s causes, symptoms, and impacts shed light on the potential negative effects of social isolation. Mental and physical health are interconnected. Social isolation’s adverse health consequences range from sleeplessness to reduced immune function. Loneliness is associated with higher anxiety, depression, and suicide rates. Isolation and loneliness are also linked to poor cardiovascular health and cognitive function, confused thinking, delusions or hallucinations, excessive feelings of anger or fear, extreme swings in emotion, inability to cope with daily problems, major changes in eating or sleeping patterns. From: Understanding the Effects of Social Isolation on Mental Health (tulane.edu) ~ ~ ~ ~ After I went WOW, I got married, and eventually we decided to go into the way corps program…The isolation process is amped up! We never got to watch TV or keep up on what’s happening in the news and had one “self-structure day” a week to leave the campus and run errands, etc.…. There was a demand for ‘spiritual purity’; when I first arrived for in-residence training there were posters plastered all over the place that read, “the world out…The Word in”… The purpose is manipulative - those who control the information control the person. Isolation tends to foster an “us versus them” mentality – we who are in isolation versus the outside world. I believe I subconsciously used this thought pattern to feel more at ease. But reflecting on that now – I believe it often caused me to make decisions based on subconscious discrimination instead of leaving room for understanding and growth. It allowed me to make quick mental shortcuts. It is easier to make snap decisions based on what I already assume about “them” (anyone outside the way corps) rather than spending time to know one of “them”…the seclusion of the way corps training program was designed to instill in us a rapid litmus test procedure – depending on how quickly one could assess someone or some group lining up with TWI’s ideology would result in either favoritism or ostracism. Information from outside TWI is considered worldly or evil, especially if it opposes TWI’s ideology. Members are told not to read it or believe it. Only the information supplied by TWI is true. TWI usually labeled any information against it as “persecution”, “lies” or “fiery darts of the wicked” … and we were taught to not even entertain the thought that the information could be true – or we could be deceived – tricked by the Devil! Yikes! Common sense will tell you if you do not consider all the available information, you're more likely to make an unbalanced or uninformed decision. However, TWI filtered information - or tried to discredit it- not on the basis of how true it is, but rather on the basis of how it supports or detracts from their ideology. From my own experience, I’ve come to learn that TWI-followers tend to hide their true thoughts and feelings, and instead wear a mask which presents them as a good TWI-follower. This too is a kind of further isolation – a separation of your authentic-self from your adaptive-self. Others in the group only get to interact with your adaptive-self - - and you are interacting with their adaptive-selves. One tends to discredit their own thoughts and feelings as something unimportant, five senses oriented, worldly, etc. This “TWI-mask” is a defense against being reported to leadership and being punished for not measuring up to TWI-standards…This becomes a false-front - a façade that gives the appearance of a more positive picture. We were trained not only to deceive outsiders, but also our own followers...and of course ourselves. Rarely did close friendships form…and if they did, TWI-leadership usually saw them as a threat and would separate those people away from each other by different corps assignments. Any type of relationship – friend…spouse…family…social that had the potential to be more powerful and influential in terms of weakening one’s allegiance to the group and its leaders tends to be viewed as a potential threat. I believe that was one of the reasons for isolation in the way corps program. We were physically isolated from friends and family who might otherwise provide a reality check – besides being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, TV (when I was in there was no internet ) – all this ensured that the only reality the way corps gets to experience is the one presented by the way corps program…The isolation process made us dependent and obedient… Even after the in-residence training is over, upper TWI-leadership continues to intrude…micromanage…meddle…with one’s relationships with friends and family. If top leadership doesn’t sense adequate zeal and loyalty on your part – you could be at risk of verbal attacks, public face-melting, face a strenuous private interrogation – or even the threat of expulsion. Unless you’ve been through the way corps program – you have no idea of what utter despair, hopelessness and fear of expulsion can do to your psyche – even willing to compromise convictions and give up any freedoms in order to stay in good graces with top leadership and enjoy the comfort of the elite social system of the way corps. ...I found that even after finishing the in-residence part of the program many of those “insulating” attitudes persisted. I felt a sentiment in myself and other way corps that we were the spiritually elite, serving on the front lines – and with that there were also a lot of negative stereotyping of outsiders and people who disagreed with TWI-leadership. I had such a cavalier attitude about keeping up with current events or anything happening in the world – figuring I would always be ahead of the game by relying on what TWI-leadership had to say about something or maybe in a worst-case scenario even God himself would have to show me what’s going on. ~ ~ ~ ~ Enough about separation, groupthink, isolation, us-versus-them, and being expected to cut ties to old friends because of religious dogma…it’s silly to sacrifice real relationships for contrived interactions… …why not reach out to old friends today! just wanted to end on a light note with that picture - - seriously though call an old friend...reconnect

My previous post got me thinking of similarities of narcissism and the God complex…the following are a couple of excerpts from online – I thought Grease Spotters might enjoy reading: A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct.[1] Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society, and may request special consideration or privileges.[ From: God complex - Wikipedia ~ ~ ~ ~ What it means to have a god complex. To have a god complex essentially means someone is so fervently self-assured that they actually overestimate themselves, their abilities, and their entitlement. According to licensed clinical social worker De-Andrea Blaylock-Johnson, LCSW, the inflated sense of self is the biggest indicator. That inflated sense of self, she notes, also translates into a lot of other characteristics, especially feeling better than everyone else. "They feel they're the smartest person in the room, they know best, and their reality is the reality—their experience is the experience," she says. Ultimately, these people tend to take arrogance to the extreme, believing they can do whatever they want with little to no regard for others—and that they're justified in doing so. "It's referred to as a 'god complex' because it's this idea that 'I am the end-all-be-all,' and they don't even consider how their actions can impact others," Blaylock-Johnson adds. Are people with god complexes also narcissists? If you're thinking that god complexes sound a lot like narcissism, you wouldn't be far off. They're very similar, though not totally the same. "Often when people describe a god complex, they are referring to someone who may have traits of narcissistic personality disorder," Blaylock-Johnson explains, though they may not have an actual diagnosis. Having a god complex isn't a diagnosable condition (that is, it's not a condition listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka the DSM-5), but narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is. Someone diagnosed with NPD is almost certainly going to exhibit some signs of a god complex, but someone with a god complex doesn't necessarily have NPD. There's a lot of overlap, though, particularly with grandiose narcissism. Psychologist Perpetua Neo, DClinPsy, describes this as a particular type of narcissism, when "someone's narcissistic qualities—entitlement, braggadocio, and self-obsession—are openly displayed, often at the expense of others." This is very similar to a god complex. As Blaylock-Johnson adds, however, "It's helpful to look at the different characteristics or traits people may be exhibiting to help you figure out how to handle the situation—but also you don't want to necessarily throw around diagnoses." 11 common signs to look out for: An inflated sense of self: The biggest sign of a god complex is an inflated sense of self and general feelings of grandiosity. As Blaylock-Johnson describes it, "They think they're a lot more important than they really are." Gaslighting: Because people with a god complex are self-absorbed, it can be difficult for them to recognize or accept another person's experience. This, Blaylock-Johnson says, can lead to gaslighting, a form of manipulation that involves denying someone else's reality. Gaslighting is also common among narcissists. Lack of empathy: A general lack of empathy is common for those with god complexes, Blaylock-Johnson says. "They have an inability to see the humanity in others." Inconsiderate behavior: Because of their tendency for self-absorption and lack of empathy, people with god complexes often behave in inconsiderate ways. According to Blaylock-Johnson, they don't think about how they're affecting others. In their own eyes, they can do no wrong. Validation seeking: There's an excessive need for external admiration, praise, and recognition for those with god complexes, Blaylock-Johnson says, adding that they cannot validate themselves. And as licensed marriage and family therapist Margalis Fjelstad, Ph.D., LMFT, previously explained to mbg, that's another core narcissist trait. "Validation for a narcissist counts only if it comes from others," she says. Callous or unemotional behavior: Sometimes people with god complexes can be inexplicably cold to others or simply unemotional, Blaylock-Johnson says. Isolation: There can be many reasons someone isolates themselves, and it's not always indicative of a god complex. But according to Blaylock-Johnson, "purposely isolating themselves because they think they're better than everybody else and don't need anyone else is different from social isolation due to depression or anxiety" and could be a sign of a god complex. Unsuccessful long-term relationships: Does this person have close friendships that have lasted for years? If not, it might be worth looking at why. "If people have a difficult time maintaining long-term relationships, whether that's friendships or romantic relationships," Blaylock-Johnson says, "it could be a sign that the other parties have decided not to remain in contact with them, which is something to consider." Disrespecting boundaries: A big reason people can end up walking away from those with god complexes, as aforementioned, is due to disrespecting boundaries, Blaylock-Johnson says. They may push people away "constantly crossing certain boundaries," she explains. As Fjelstad notes, narcissists similarly believe everything belongs to them, everyone thinks and feels the same as they do, and everyone wants the same things they do. "They are shocked and highly insulted to be told no," she says. Lack of responsibility: When you have a god complex, Blaylock-Johnson says, you're not going to feel like anything you're doing is wrong—and you're certainly not going to feel like you have to change. In fact, far from it. According to Fjelstad, "Lack of responsibility is a glaring sign of a narcissist. Although narcissists want to be in control, they never want to be responsible for the results." NPD or other mental illness: Lastly, a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis is a likely indicator that someone will exhibit signs of a god complex. This can also happen with other mental illnesses in which mania is involved, such as bipolar disorder. "For some people, if they are in a manic episode, it can be marked by grandiosity, that inflated sense of self, or doing a lot of risky behaviors," Blaylock-Johnson notes. Excerpts from: God Complex: What It Really Means + Why People Have Them | mindbodygreen See also: The Savior Complex | Psychology Today Narcissistic Personality Disorder (God Complex) (thewallstreetpsychologist.com) Closing the Gap between Psychology and God - Scientific American 10 Psychological Complexes That May Be Secretly Poisoning Your Life - Learning Mind (learning-mind.com)

That reminds me of another theory- absence makes the heart grow fonder - one feels more affection for what’s missing - like money, talent, intelligence, fake degree. Absence is like a vacuum is like a malignant narcissist. ~ ~ ~ ~ Narcissists demand constant attention and suck the life out of you without your knowledge. No matter what good traits a narcissistic person might have, the nature of narcissistic interactions goes deep to one’s core by violating boundaries and manipulating to the point of exhaustion….boundaries become absent. Narcissists often get their own way - which is always their end goal - by being openly agressive or passive aggressive towards other people. People around them become fearful of saying or doing something which will trigger the narcissist's agression. Living in a state of fear is mentally and physically damaging on almost every level…living in fear is the absence of peace. Narcissistic people thrive on lies, secrets and manipulative and gaslighting behaviours. Others are drawn into secrets and manipulative behavior - If you're not the type of person who thrives on constant drama, being pulled into the narcissist's web leaves you feeling trapped and deflated. Sometimes it's all you can do to sit and wait for the spider to make it's attack…the absence of freedom. Narcissists never, ever feel that enough is enough. They always want more attention. Others feel that they are never able to offer enough. They always want to create more chaos between people around them. They want more and more from you. You cannot ever satisfy a narcissist's needs - but you can keel over with exhaustion in the process of trying…the absence of enough. ~ ~ ~ ~ FYI Grease Spotters, I adapted the above (my brief additions in bold are at the end of each section to reiterate the theme of absence) from a Psychology Today article written by Claire Jack Ph.D. A therapist, coach, researcher, and training provider who specialises in working with women with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). She was herself diagnosed with ASD in her forties. from: Psychology Today: Why Narcissists Suck the Life Out of You…and then keep on going…September 11, 2020

And wierwille’s collaterals cause collateral damage

Yikes you said “pole”

tsk tsk - referencing Shakespeare is one of the world’s most common traditions. It’s amazing how much of Shakespeare’s work speaks to the human condition…even Paul was no slouch when it came to being culturally literate - evidenced in some non-biblical references he made as mentioned in Acts and his letters - it was a good way to connect with his audience what is cultural literacy and why is it important? Cultural literacy is the ability to understand the traditions, norms, activities and historical background of a given culture. Cultural literacy also involves the ability to participate fluently in formal and informal traditions, norms and activities. Cross-cultural communication problems and gaps in cultural literacy may cause or exacerbate health inequity. From : National council org I find nothing in the Bible to indicate that only Scripture is God-breathed …yeah break that down - God-breathed = God inspired….so, Mike who appears to be incapable of separating truth from lies - exemplified by his continued defense of a known plagiarist and sexual predator , has the audacity to declare Shakespeare never had divine inspiration. Man oh man, he is missing out on a lot great stuff in not only written form but in the arts, music, film, performing arts, etc.. God created us in His image and likeness. So who says we can’t be creative like Him? Seems awfully narrow minded to say that. That reminds me - check out the thread 10 traits of narrow minded people

when I read the collaterals, I touch myself

Moving goal posts again Notice Mike’s vague criteria for determining what the really big issues are - but rest assured whatever they are, you can believe Mike who is incapable of distinguishing truth from lies and fact from fiction. Incredible isn’t it? And by incredible I mean unbelievable. Mike talks out of both sides of his mouth - and when he says stuff like the above quote - he wonders why people don’t believe him. I wonder if Mike has incorporated the same Gnosticism tendencies as wierwille. I say that because like wierwille , Mike pits the world’s intellectual standards against his own inflated ego….now to legitimize this - Mike has to up his game to some next level bull-$hit by claiming “God” (aka Mike’s inflated ego) will help one to find this otherwise unknowable truth. Looks to me like Mike has his very own harmful and controlling cult - using the same manipulative tactics as lying thieving weasel wierwille. Like the polarizing us-versus-them game. You must choose a side. Here’s your options- there’s only 2: Academia, being one of the most powerful arms of the devil’s controlled kingdoms OR Choose Mike’s god - the inflated-know-it-all-ego in search of ‘higher truths’ …secret knowledge…almost like marital bliss - Gnosticism on earth in this day and time and hour….and don’t forget the secret password if you want in - a wink and a nod

True that!

What a bunch of bull-$hit! mischaracterize academic standards! Why? Evidently Mike has his own standards - which I wouldn’t trust because Mike seems incapable of distinguishing truth from lies and fact from fiction. on a related issue - debating with such a deluded and confused person makes having a reasonable discussion nearly impossible because they keep moving the goal post.

wierwille did teach about the ‘Christ in you’ but in my opinion there might have been a twofold purpose : he was blowing smoke up ‘believers’ a$$es - to inflate their egos and have them draw a correlation with the power behind wierwille’s ministry - in other words, he probably wanted followers to assume he exemplified living by the power of ‘Christ in you’. I believe wierwille subliminally substituted himself in place of Christ’s authority by the ambiguous images he conveyed to followers. Sure, he taught it was ‘Christ in you’. But I think here is another one of those wierwille switcheroos - like a Stepford Wives ‘syndrome’. What I think wierwille taught as the real you – the ‘Christ in you’ – was his idea of the perfect TWI-follower - compliant…obedient to the man of God…’not my will but thine (the cult-leader’s will ) be done’. The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent. Religion deals in a lot of abstracts. I bet no two people think of Jesus Christ in the same way. At the center of Christianity is Jesus Christ - I know I’m stating the obvious here - but the full message of the gospel gives us a bunch of reference points to think somewhat more objectively of Jesus Christ and by extension the Father. To reinterpret John 14:9 he who observes Jesus’ words and deeds will also recognize the Father. The fact that wierwille focused primarily on Pauline letters may also be a factor in why his theology was unmoored from traditional Christianity. While it is true, we don’t know Christ after the flesh as II Corinthians 5:16 says - I don’t think that means we ignore His words and deeds recorded in the gospels. It’s about a change in perspective. The people having a natural point of view of Christ led to His crucifixion and Paul persecuting followers of Christ. After Paul’s conversion he had a divine perspective of Christ. And so do we as Christians reading of His words and deeds. The gospels provide us with the touchstone for living Christ-like. On the other hand, reflecting on some of the things I’ve witnessed wierwille say and do - it’s obvious to me now his reference point was not Jesus Christ - but himself. So, he came up with ‘great’ redefinitions like “anything done in the love of God is okay.” Where does it say that in the gospels - or for that matter in Paul's letters? A TWI-follower thinking about the ‘Christ in you’ could mean something totally different from a member of a local church feeling compelled to help a homeless person.

I don’t mean to belabor this - but maybe to point out some distinctions: wierwille taught about the Christ in you and the gift of holy spirit (lower case “h” and “s”) but in my opinion there might have been a twofold purpose : he was blowing smoke up ‘believers’ a$$es - to inflate their egos and have them draw a correlation with the power behind wierwille’s ministry - in other words, he probably wanted followers to assume he exemplified living by the power of Christ in you. The idea of wierwille subliminally substituting himself in place of Christ’s authority has been touched on a few times on this thread. I think that is the nuance that needs to be highlighted. Sure, he taught it was Christ in you. But I think here is another one of those wierwille switcheroos - like a Stepford Wives ‘syndrome’. What I think wierwille taught as the real you - the Christ in you - was his ideal of the perfect TWI-follower - compliant…obedient to the man of God…’not my will but thine (the cult-leader’s will ) be done’. The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent. Religion deals in a lot of abstracts. For those who believe in a God - I bet no two people think of him or her in exactly the same way. At the center of Christianity is Jesus Christ - I know I’m stating the obvious here - but the message of the gospel gives us a bunch of reference points to think somewhat more objectively of Jesus Christ and by extension the Father. To reinterpret John 14:9 - he who is observes Jesus’ words and deeds is also seeing the Father. The fact that wierwille focused primarily on Pauline letters may also be a factor in why his theology was unmoored from traditional Christianity. While it is true, we don’t know Christ after the flesh as II Corinthians 5:16 says - I don’t think that means we ignore His words and deeds recorded in the gospels. It’s about our perspective being changed. A natural view of Christ led to His crucifixion and Paul persecuting followers of Christ. After Paul’s conversion he had a divine perspective of Christ. And so do we when we read of His words and deeds. The gospels provide us with the touchstone for living Christ-like. On the other hand, reflecting on some of the things I’ve witnessed wierwille say and do - it’s obvious to me now his reference point was not Jesus Christ - but himself. So he came up with ‘great’ redefinitions like “anything done in the love of God is okay.” Where does it say that in Paul’s letters - or for that matter in the gospels? A TWI-follower thinking about the ‘Christ in you’ could mean something totally different from a member of a local church feeling compelled to help a homeless person.

During manifestations, some were disturbed by her unusual demeanor and the fact that she gave the interpretation first and then spoke in tongues. However, to her credit both the interpretation and the tongues were approximately the same length.

My other car is a constitution-class starship.