T-Bone

Thanks Belle and NoWayHozay - I was looking over Tonto's shoulder as she was checking them out in the Gallery. I'm fixin' to get my weary bones to bed - but plan on downloading some pics tomorrow! Oh the memories!

Now Tonto has me wondering where we used to have band practice. I know it was somewhere in the basement...but I can't remember where...does anyone have a floor plan of the place?

Abigail, that is a great translation - the Complete Jewish Bible – I have it at home. Wish I had time to check out all the avenues of a thread. Oh – that reminds me – not too long ago I bought The Jewish Study Bible, editors Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler. It features The Jewish Publication Society Tanakh Translation. An excerpt from the liner notes: "The Jewish Study Bible is a major accomplishment. It provides accessible essays from the full gamut of Jewish scholarship, and a running commentary that draws liberally from both traditional and scientific perspectives." I'd have to say the insight I've enjoyed from your posts was a strong factor in my purchase of the book. That was an interesting point – and reminded me of something Jesus said: Matthew 23:23 NASB "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." It's odd isn't it – how sometimes we can be so stubborn to stick to the letter of the law on something and forget about the intent of the law. Where our theology becomes set in stone and humanity and life is obscured.

Another Spot and Penguin – my sentiments exactly!!!!!!!! When I first left TWI – a favorite passage of mine was, Jeremiah 9:23,24 NIV 23 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD. I knew some stuff ABOUT God - but it started to dawn on me how little I KNEW God! I'm of the opinion now that it's more about relationship than scholarship. MarkOMalley says a good thing on another point of view. That's what makes GSC great!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Check out stuff other folks are recommending. Shortly after I left TWI – I went to an estate sale and bought my first commentary for 50 cents. Often I would follow up on a reference in a commentary – even if the author said "it's not like so-and-so said in his book." So I'd go find that book with the opposing viewpoint in a library. For a TWIt-head that can be so confusing and stressful. But for me - checking out other viewpoints was fun – still is ! What freedom…adventure…growth…healing…spiritual deepening. It's a great way to exercise your thinking skills.

Another Spot, I don't recall the post you're thinking of but I listed quite a few books in my post # 884 on The Official, The Ultimate, The Amazing PFAL thread [see quote below] and would also add a recent purchase of Systematic Theology in 4 Volumes by Norman Geisler – rapidly becoming a favorite of mine next to Millard Erickson's Christian Theology. I also highly recommend A Theology of Christian Counseling by Jay Adams – good for thinking about the practical consequences of doctrine. If I were pressed to whittle down my list to just one helpful book – I would go with Understanding the Bible by John Stott – a small, inexpensive book that has been most influential in my personal Bible study. And elaborating on what I expressed at the end of post 884 – these books are good – helpful tools as you work at understanding/applying the Bible – but the primary tool of interpretation is your mind - developing our critical thinking skills is a big deal - striving for the goal of doing our best clear THINKING…None of these authors are perfect – and neither am I. Sometimes I'll discover faulty reasoning in a book – sometimes my own faulty thinking is exposed. Such is life – we do the best we can with what we have. Sometimes I won't know what to make of a topic – but it's fun exploring it anyway. My personal Bible study covers a wide array of topics – but I spend the most think-time on topics that have significant practical consequences.

When you mentioned the weakness of people I thought of the relation of the law / God's Spirit to sin being similar to virus detection programs. In order to protect your computer one of the things a virus detection program must do is identify viruses. In the medical realm, what little I've read about biological viruses is very interesting. They cannot reproduce themselves but essentially attack normal cells and dictate to them "make more of me" [the virus] – any medical folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections. What little I know of PCs – I think computer viruses work in a similar fashion – in that they need the normal data/functions on the PC to do their dirty work – IT folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections. Likening sin to a virus – I thought Romans 7 and 8 paint a vivid picture of the law / God's Spirit being virus protection programs - temporary solutions to man's dilemma. Sin has always been present since the fall of man – and in my opinion it has infected the very fabricate of our being. Sin can take anything good and twist it into something bad. I guess it's going to take a complete system overhaul to eradicate that particular virus [which is a part of my Christian hope in the Lord's return]. However, God has always provided work-around solutions until that glorious day. Romans 7:7-25 NIV 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 8:1-17 NIV 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Great posts! Maybe it’s very simply the heart of the law from different angles. The Ten Commandments show a concern for the integrity of relationships – mostly from a negative aspect – “this is what it is NOT.” Jesus said the intent of the law is to foster a genuine love for God and neighbor – showing the positive aspect of the law… Paul said the law is good, holy, righteous and spiritual in Romans 7. God intended the law for good. But in Romans 7 Paul also expressed our faulty response to the law at times – it is sin’s rebelliousness…sin’s seduction…sin’s way of twisting things out of shape – to take something intended for good and fill it with criminal intent. Perhaps the bigger the “no trespassing” sign – the more appealing it becomes sometimes – the grass always looking greener on the other side of the fence. This is how the law looks from sin’s angle!

Great points, Abigail !!!!!!!!! To which I agree.

"This is pure rhetoric…" I had the same thought about your post… "Are you telling me you don't know what the liberty bell is?" No – YOU'RE not telling me what YOU meant by YOUR usage of the "liberty bell." I was asking you to clarify your statements. I guess that means you don't intend to answer my other questions in post # 75 either. Or was "This is pure rhetoric" your best effort to express yourself intelligently? You know, we'd all probably make a lot more headway on this thread if you'd make an effort to communicate like normal folks do. In other words - not playing games, speaking in riddles, being arrogant, ignoring direct questions, and spouting off VPW phrases. Unless you think you're accomplishing something this way. Of course, what you think you're accomplishing and what others think you're accomplishing may be miles apart. At some point I actually thought you were trying to say something meaningful – now I just read it for the entertainment value…ok – so I'm easily amused.

Which makes me wonder – if anyone ever clocked how fast this continental drifter is... …Hey, Waysider what’s your top speed?

Happiest of days to ya - have a good one!!!!

I don't think Matthew 5 is in reference to the basis for entering heaven. But it does seem like a "ranking system" of some kind exists – based on God's criteria – and that is God's prerogative. Here is another reference to God's recognition of individuals: Matthew 20:20-23 NIV 20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 "What is it you want?" he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom." 22 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father." Thinking about II Timothy 2's context – handling the Word accurately in teaching AND conduct – an idea very similar in Matthew 5 – may be an indication of the criteria God uses in His "ranking system"…a basis for rewards, privileges, recognition.

That was my post # 314 on holy thing thread: The above are very helpful quick reference sheets. Some other books that are helpful without getting too technical are: The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible edited by Spiros Zodhiates $37.79: http://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Greek-Key-Word-Study-Bible/dp/0899576877/ref=sr_1_2/102-0329553-2488163?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182337940&sr=8-2 and a good condensed commentary is an abridgement of the Expositor's Bible Commentary [which I have on CD] are the following: Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary Volume 1: Old Testament, Barker & Kohlenberger consulting editors – new and used from $28.11: http://www.amazon.com/Zondervan-NIV-Bible-Commentary-Vol/dp/0310578507/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0329553-2488163?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182338098&sr=1-1 and Volume 2: New Testament new and used from $29.97: http://www.amazon.com/Zondervan-NIV-Bible-Commentary-Vol/dp/031057840X/ref=sr_1_2/102-0329553-2488163?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182338745&sr=1-2 the above commentaries use the Goodrick/Kohlenberger numbering system when referring to any Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words – I often use The Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance used and new from $17.49 – it has a cross reference index to Strong's numbering system. A few of my reference books use both numbering systems: http://www.amazon.com/Zondervan-Exhaustive-Concordance-Edward-Goodrick/dp/0310229979/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0329553-2488163?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182339063&sr=1-1

Please be specific. "Even the elite…" what or who qualifies them as elite? What is the criteria? How many elite? What was the ratio of comparison between elite and average people? Did your study include every single elite person – or was it a sampling? "…of the most prestigious institutions of intellectual and spiritual excellence…" Specificity is needed. You need to name names. What are the names of these institutions? What are the standards of excellence? Did your study include every institution with intellectual and spiritual pursuits? Please provide a list of all institutions targeted in your study. "…have forgotten the law of liberty's resplendent wisdom." What does that mean? What is your documentation for this? What is the evidence that this has occurred? What is "the law of liberty's resplendent wisdom"? "The liberty bell…" What are you referring to? Is this literal or figurative? What type of bell is it? A ship's bell, a clock's bell, a musical instrument? "…needs desperately to be mended…" Other than your awkward English – what specifically needs to be mended? How bad is it in need of mending? Are we talking one big crack or a bunch of little ones? Or is the problem with missing parts, faulty parts, a flawed design, a compound problem in the bell ringing system or user error? "…and it must ring again." Why? What will happen? Who says it must ring again? Will it be called Glockenspiel 2? And will Harry Belafonte star as the ringleader of a chime syndicate?

I’m not one to judge how strong the evidence is – but have read a little on the subject - Here’s one article that talks about continental drift and the one continent. http://kids.earth.nasa.gov/archive/pangaea/evidence.html

Please re-read my post # 53. Perhaps I was not clear enough in expressing my opposition to the traditional view of Noah's Ark/Flood that you're talking about – so I will elaborate a little more. None of this is conclusive of course, but like you, I have questions/thoughts that challenge assumptions. Why is it assumed the entire zoological spread of creatures owe their existence to Noah's Ark? I tend to think God aimed His wrath at the sinful people mentioned in Genesis 6. And, considering that any geographical references before the flood are confined to the Mesopotamian area – leads me to assume that was as far as humanity had spread. There would be no reason for God to pour out His wrath on say the penguins, polar bears, and walruses in regions where no human had yet reached. A global flood assumes that all living creatures descended from the pairs on the Ark. But given the dimensions of the Ark - I don't think there would have been enough room for all the animals nor would it have been feasible for only eight humans to properly care for them all. Nor does it allow for enough time for the natural evolutionary processes to account for the wide variety of species. I lean towards a local flood – Noah being commissioned to save animals indigenous to his area.

Yeah – but I heard it got flooded and there’s some prehistoric creatures swimming around.

Some folks do not interpret the flood of Noah's day as being global but local – and considering the likelihood that God may have helped Noah in the evacuation - some of these issues would become a moot point. The male and female creatures appear to come to Noah of their own accord in verses 9 and 15 of Genesis 7. It seems the point of the flood was to snuff out man and animal [verses 17 to 24] – some things come to mind – just thinking out loud here with the following questions: How far had man and land based animals migrated by this time? Is it possible the flood was limited [local] in that it was confined to a specific area impacted by the sins mentioned in Genesis 6? Would there be geological and archeological evidence to indicate such a deluge happened and to what extent? Genesis 7:6-24 NIV 6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in. 17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [b] , [c] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. 24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

That was probably bleSS patrol.

You say it's your birthday...it's my birthday too yeah...happy birthday to Dooj...

Congrats, to Oak and the rest of you licensed ministers! Mstar1 – you’ve got me thinking about the pre-marital counseling aspect of the job – and I’m being serious – imagine dealing with a couple one of which is in TWI. Not that a TWIt would ever think of going to anyone outside of TWI-clergy – but what if they did? I would be so tempted to tell them “you two will have a tough road ahead and may want to re-think this marriage thing.”

Really cool video with some very humbling thoughts - thanks, Garth !

Here's my results: To what extent have you been brainwashed? You are only minorly brainwashed. You let some things influence you, but you know if it gets too far. You also often react without thinking things through. And according to Shifra's customized brainwashing test: 1. When the Bible is being discussed among your (non-TWI) friends, do you continue to believe that you know more than anyone else about the subject? Nope 2. Do you still think that people who believe in the Trinity are "idolatrous" and therefore have forfeited their chances for eternal life? How about their "crowns in heaven"? Uhm…I believe in the Trinity now…[so Nope to # 2] - PS - I think non-Trinitarians are cool too!!!!!! 3. Do you hang on to the idea that all negative things come from the devil? No – I do a good job of screwing things up myself. 4. Do you avoid wearing a cross around your neck or having one as a wall decoration in your home? Are you kidding? - Love the Cross! Nope to # 4 5. Is your first reaction to a difficult situation to speak in tongues - silently, in your mind - rather than to immediately pursue a solution to the problem? Usually I'll think something like, "Lord, need a little help here. Grant me the wisdom and courage to take the best course of action. 6. Do you think environmentalists are nature-worshippers? Is their altar made of synthetic or natural materials? Careful – that's a trick question. "oh crap – he's answering a question with a question." Ok – seriously my answer is "Nope." 7. Do you use a wooden spoon as a "rod of correction" on your child? Nope – "timeout" is the ticket. It drives them nuts! It's like being stuck in traffic for adults. 8. When you experience failure, do you begin to re-trace your recent past in order to identify where you "blew it" spiritually? Nope. I re-trace my steps to see where I need to improve and to garner any lessons. 9. When considering whether an idea or event is valid, is the Bible your ultimate reference point for truth? The Bible is certainly a factor when I process certain things – but I also believe there is truth in other belief systems – and usually lean towards considering other viewpoints – attempting to see the bigger picture. 10. If you encounter a mentally ill person, does you "diagnosis" of that person include the name of a devil spirit? Never did - never will! 11. When you pray, does each sentence of the prayer begin with ... "Thank you father"? Same answer as # 10 – not anymore. 12. Do you believe that when a Christian husband and wife disagree, the wife should submit? Nope. 13. When someone is very very very successful at what they do, do you consider that this might be because of an affiliation with the Adversary? No – I admire them for having discipline, skill and good fortune. 14. Do you find yourself rejecting any perspectives from other religions? Nope – see my answer on # 9. 15. Do you believe that babies are not alive until they take their first breath? Nope – I believe the image of God is in everyone and take Psalm 139 very seriously! 16. Does it still matter to you how many were crucified with Christ? Nope. 17. Is your life patterned more after the Epistles than the Gospels? Not sure – I usually think in terms of my relationship with a person [My Lord] rather than a book.

Wow wee, Dooj – that is exciting news!!!! Congrats, Congrats, Congrats, Congrats!!!! Wishing you continued success, Tonto & T-Bone

It’s encouraging to hear about your recovery from the first surgery. We always enjoy reading your posts – so thoughtful, wise, and warm – and missed you while you were gone. Mo, you are in our thoughts and prayers. Love Tonto & T-Bone ((((((( Mo )))))))