T-Bone

So much…so much in your words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is it when you mix TWI doctrine/mindset with men, anyway?!? True confession time – I've shared this before on other threads – how I put TWI's agenda before the needs of my family. Another Spot, I'm not excusing how your husband was to your son or trying to justify it – all I'm saying is I understand it. Now I'm not claiming to be the world's most loving person – but I have come a long way from how I used to be in TWI – and I attribute a lot of that to my amazing wife Tonto – her patience, faith, LOVE, forgiveness, understanding, and personality were instrumental in drawing me out of TWI-induced dysfunctional social skills! If it wasn't for her during and for awhile after we left TWI, our kids wouldn't have known what it was like to really connect emotionally with a parent. Gosh – without the moms in TWI – in many ways that would be such an emotionless, loveless place…You know, as a TWIt I used to run something like a mental check-up, asking myself how I was doing on various Bible studies and PFAL principles. Yuck – I told you this was true confession time ! Now during moments of reflection I often ask myself how I'm doing on the two great commandments [Loving God and neighbor]. This thread is tremendous, Another Spot – great posts by everyone!!!!! I love the twist and turns a thread takes. And I think it's interesting that in your first post I find a hint of where we are now. I know you were joking but think about this – you [a woman and mom] starting a cult over "Jesus wept." That shows me the wonderful empathetic desire of YOUR soul to connect to others! That's a beautiful thing . I think a typical guy would start a cult over Jesus snapping a whip and overturning tables in the temple .

(((((((Another Spot + Son Spot))))))) Going by your post, it sounds like you both have made a lot of headway already!

Love those verses – Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books. Sorry to bombard this thread with a bunch more verses – but I find this whole interactive thing intriguing. In my opinion, the verses emphasize experiencing the knowledge of Scripture – rather than an academic pursuit of theology. From the following verses, I see an interactive process in the way believers grow in Bible knowledge: Matthew 7:7, 8 NIV 7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. John 7:17 NIV If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. John 16:12-15 NIV 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. I Corinthians 2:6-14 NIV 6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Ephesians 1:17, 18 NIV 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, I John 2:24-28 NIV 24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. 26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. 28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. From the above, I gather there's more to it than mere intellect. There may be times when we need to ask God. Ultimately we must make a conscious choice upfront to accept His will – whatever that may be – God is looking for willing participants in this experience…We are to be sensitive to His Spirit within…Even though this knowledge is subjective – being an inner experience – I believe that's the way God designed the Christian lifestyle. It is a deeply personal matter. To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.

Another Spot - this is probably a little off topic but I've been thinking about the stuff you said when you posted the knowledge verses. And something struck my curiosity when I posted the passage of Luke 11:52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." What was the "key of knowledge" that Jesus referred to? Considering the harsh criticism Jesus fired at the religious leaders for their hypocrisy [Luke 11:37-51] – I tend to think the key of knowledge may be our obedience to the moral dictates of Scripture - in other words, the way God meant for us to understand His knowledge, the way it unfolds to us. A similar idea is found in a Proverbs passage: Proverbs 9:10 NIV The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Just thinking out loud…I tend to think what God wants from us when it comes to Bible knowledge [i.e. Bible Study, Bible interpretation, Bible preaching, etc.] is a response from the heart – not going through the motions or putting on a religious front. This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship. In my opinion, this knowledge is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity or impress our friends but is meant to have a transforming influence on our souls. Interesting mental image of a key - to unlock something. Is it talking about entering into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something. Perhaps God meant for His Word to unfold through our interaction with Him...just a thought...

誕生日、ジョージの最も幸せ! [Happiest of birthdays, George!]

Excellent points, Another Spot and Chatty Kathy!!!!!!!!! I think for most folks at TWI – knowledge was the main focus. In my opinion, this obsession with knowledge was so strong that people tended to become shortsighted – getting hung up in the technical details of the foreground [the Bible – and only a portion of the Bible at that – the church epistles] with little regard for the bigger picture or a relationship with the Savior. That "busy work" was enough to quell any desire for something of substance or awareness that we lacked a relationship with Christ. There I was thinking I had it all...I'm tapped in...and really it was quite the opposite - something REALLY BIG WAS MISSING in my life...Christ! Your posts brought some passages to mind – very similar situations – where Jesus spoke of religious leaders more concerned for the technical details of the ceremonial law than for the weightier matters of the moral law; and of Paul's change of focus – from being a legalistic zealot to pursuing a greater relationship with Christ. Luke 11:37-52 NIV 37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised. 39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. 42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it." 45One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." 46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. 47"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. 52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Philippians 3:2-10 NIV 2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. 7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death…

Aw, you all are so funny!!! [note to self: verify orifice before inserting brain.]

Questions for our illustrious panel of grudges: Temple Lady - that’s poetry, sheer poetry my dear!!!! You’re the greatest SDFODAT in my book! When is your quotable quotes book Sand Lines coming out? Another Spot - In spite of your spat with either group and your tendency to spotificate – my organization is in dire need of funds – can you spot me a twenty? My inner child loved your “Silly ostrich. Nuts are for squirrels.” NY Unknown – You make a valid point about TWI’s sinking ship. But think about it – if passengers ignore their sinking ship long enough – eventually the problem WILL go away – literally. Can I hear you say “Titanic”? Hammeroni – I’m waiting to hear from your attorneys. Who is bringing the nuts to the meeting? Doojable – I think that word “hippo…etc.” has gone over into prophecy. When was your last excellor’s session? Sir Out There – Directions to Erehwon are nowhere to be found. You seem to be inundated with a punctilious reverie of punitive prose that befits a knight of your caliber. But I confuse the issue - since you now prefer sword over gun – you are really an ex-caliber. So – you think I joust do you? Have you ever seen a picket fence? Excathedra – when sand gets in your eyes, life looks like a beach. Would you keep an eye out for Murine? Waysider - Is machinery afraid of sand? And if fear is believing in reverse how come I don’t hear the back-up noise when I’m afraid? Groucho - Has Rosie ever heard a hormone?

From the law firm of Nutbone, Feather & Squat, representing TWOFAN: We would like to schedule a meeting at a suitable time. Attached is the standard plagiarism contract for your review. Any further details may be discussed at the meeting. Attachment Part 1 of Unbeknownst Plagiarism Participatory Clause: Whenever the party of the first part [hereafter referred to as the first party] imparts an idea that becomes of particular interest to a second party – the second party shall "notify" the first party of intent to partake in the glory and financial benefits of the aforementioned idea through the following disparaging means. By no means, does this mean that the second party is limited to being thus mean to the first party in the meantime. A third party shall host a party for the first party on behalf of the second party with the legal notice "To the unknown business partner" emblazoned on all party hats. Half of the party glasses shall be partly full, and half of the party glasses shall be partly empty. Participants of the party must be full-time employees of the first party, all part-time employees are excluded, all the dearly departed secluded, and all partisan folks deluded. The third party hosting the party for the first party, reserves the right to cancel or reschedule the party if it looks partly cloudy on party day. As long as the first party does not have a clue of the second party's partial participation in the glory and financial benefits of the first party's idea neither party needs to part company.

Then she’d be known as The Unknown Cult Leader.

Another Spot - “The Way of Feathers and Nuts” – great idea! That’s exactly what I’m going to call it in my memoirs...I think I did come up with that name first anyway, but was believing for someone else to blurt it out in echo-static form… My cult has been in existence a lot longer than Sir Out There’s/Sir Squirrel’s. The main difference is my flock operates totally above ground whereas the Secret Order of the Knighted Ostriches of the Underground Table conduct their business…uhm…underground. They are flocking beneath us – even as we speak. My group is totally flocked up. There is no middle ground here. Decisions have to be made. A line has been drawn in the sand – free range birds must respond to the carrion call. What is your response to this line in the sand? Will you bury your head in it? Will you make it the property line for your castle made of sand? Will you sweep it with a metal detector and return any loose change to its rightful owner? If you decide to accept this Mission Insensible, our administrator, B. Tiddlywinks Anna Tuesday, will take you through the enrollment process. However, should you or any of your Mission Impossible team [a.k.a. The Way of Feathers and Nuts…a.k.a. No Flocking Way We’re Crazy] be captured, de-feathered, de-flocked, debauched, or de-planed - - our administrator will disembowel any credibility of your existence…Good luck, Another Spot. Hammeroni - think I’ll have to plagiarize your classes.

Temple Lady – excellent points!!!!! My, what a powerful tool ostrichization is! I’m glad there is some regulation of ostrichization – but in my opinion, not enough. The current permit carries a small fee and is nothing more than the standard release of sensibility form: “I, ______________ do hereby intend to ostrichize all out of proportion, exceedingly, abundantly, thoroughly and throughly below the IQ of my superiors; to have and to hold onto their beliefs, in sickness and in health, and with common sense I do part.” Another Spot – [T-Bone speaking in a hushed tone] You’re onto something really big! I fear for your levity! Sir Out There and Sir Squirrel are amassing an elite force of knighted birds – the Ostriches of the Underground Table. That’s all I can say right now… Be advised - speak in guarded phrases on this thread…sshhhh, the walls have birds…I will try to send you help as soon as possible. Your contact person will identify themselves by the phrase “There’s sand in the fax machine, slow transmissions are murder on plagiarized documents.” To which you must respond with, “Bury my plagiarist at wounded beach front property.” …till we speak again…bird is a word…peace out…

Ok - just please don't drink and Knight! I like you, Hamm...friends don't let friends knight drunk.

How about tequila shots?

I do hope you've had your tetanus shot - and for that matter anyone else you've knighted.

From Java Lines: “Nothing happens without me quoting other folks.” “It’s like a lot of quotes, kids.”

Yikes!...Just an aside to you folks at home, Hamm has been acting a little edgy lately...He is handy to have around for holiday meals though - I don't care what you throw at him - turkey, duck, ostrich, emu, t-bones, hamm - he slices, he dices, he can even make julian fries...And that's just his warm up act that he does bare-handed - wait till you see what he does with a knife!

Hammeroni - I get your point in post # 12 and 14 – that bird needs a Cranial Rectal Extraction to get rid of its crappy outlook on life. Another Spot – I agree. By their very nature TWI's simplistic formulas are unrealistic – they are based on assumptions/viewpoints that ignore reality. Out There – You are on a roll, my friend! I am recommending to Hammeroni your immediate Knighthood! Penguin – I can relate. I am a natural worry wart. When I got into TWI – I worked on suppressing my natural tendency to check/double check/triple check stuff – buying into that positive-thinking-has-got-it-all-covered BS. I mentioned realistic thinking at the end of post # 1 because that seems to harness my "worrisome energy". I check out the whole spectrum of data [positive, negative, neutral...even other viewpoints] on something I'm concerned about – identify that which I can control and that which I can't. Maybe it's because I no longer have to maintain that image of "the super-believer who can do anything" – that I have no problem accepting what I can't control. It's weird but – by doing that I have tremendous peace of mind - my "worry meter" gives me a good readout on the "status report" in my head.

The Challenging Counterfeit

Excathedra – "guess we should fear the sand, eh ?" – For anyone who has that phobia I recommend a day at the beach – good therapy. Out There – I had the hardest time pronouncing "ostrichization" – and finally quit saying it out loud…Whether it's talked about or not – ostrichization has become an underground movement. Hammeroni – I guess colonization by ostriches is possible…there's probably a word for that…if not, I'm sure you'll make one up! Polar Bear – Well, there is a Grammar Nazis thread…now we're talking about the Ostrich Nazis! Waysider – Maybe fear is a sandwich in the machinery of life – and I'm stuck in a pickle…I hadn't thought of a Fluffernutter in years ! Bolshevik – Wasn't the evolutionary history of the ostrich first written in Aramaic and not Greek? Java Jane – The principle of ostrichization comes in handy for a lot of things, don't ya think.

Sometimes the believing images of victory are just below the surface.

The other day Tonto mentioned an interesting word she read about – ostrichization. Urban Dictionary defines ostrichization as the act of placing one's head in the sand. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...=ostrichization That got us talking about positive thinking. For TWI folks - it's associated with the law of believing. Positive thinking tends to be goal-oriented. Attention focuses more on the goal itself rather than on the necessary steps to get there. Positive thinking typically elevates a goal above analytical thinking – and as a rule, ignores any negative aspects. Hiding one's head in the sand may bring "peace of mind" – but it is not real and throws caution to the wind. Perhaps to the TWIt-head, positive thinking is the preferred operating mode – to achieve optimum results from the law of believing. According to PFAL – "fear is sand in the machinery of life." I remember some TWI teachings defining "fear" as "false evidence appearing real." Talk about ostrichization! It is the fear of reality to hide one's head in the sand and ignore the machinery of life. Are the blisters on your fingers false evidence that touching a hot stove is a fearful experience for your skin? I prefer realistic thinking. It's process-oriented. There are goals in realistic thinking – but they may go through several revisions as you continue to process the data. Realistic thinking looks at ALL the data – whether it's positive, negative or neutral. A sensible version of positive thinking might be the genuine confidence you acquire by due diligence - you've checked out an issue from all angles – and now you're ready to act. I usually have a better attitude about handling a difficult situation if I've done my homework – and my idea of what's going on is reality-based!

DrWearWord, you may want to check out the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, General Editors: Leland Ryken, James C. Wilhoit, and Tremper Longman III, InterVarsity Press, 1998. I find it useful being different from a concordance that is verbally based – in that it obviously organizes biblical references by images, symbols, motifs, metaphors, etc. For example the Dictionary devotes pages 286 to 288 to FIRE – and covers quite a bit of ground – not going to repeat it all here – but the article does try to be comprehensive and so among other things refers to fire as being an instrument of warfare: "…the victors…burning down the city of the losers [e.g., Josh 6:24; 8:8; 11:11; Judg 1:8; I Kings 9:16; cf. Mt. 22:7]. This is why war itself or its fury can be likened to, or spoken of, as fire [Num 21:28; Is 10:16; Zech 12:6]. Fire can be the instrument of execution for criminals [Gen 38:24; Lev 20:14; 21:9; Josh7:15; cremation is otherwise not practiced in the Bible; see Crime and Punishment]... …sacrifices – not just 'burnt offerings' – are typically burned [cf. Lev 2:2, etc.]. Perhaps we should find here a symbol: the fire represents God's desire to destroy sin and to purify his people [cf. Is 6:6-7]… …In Genesis 15:17 the presence of God appears as a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch, and in Exodus 3:2 God makes himself known to Moses 'in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush [RSV; see Burning Bush]… …That God should appear as fire is appropriate for many reasons. Just as all physical life depends on the fire that is the sun [cf. Rev 16:8], so does all spiritual life depend on God…" [Page 287] WATER is covered on pages 929 to 932: "…Because water is an element essential to life, its meaning and evocativeness are universal. Yet the significance of water was heightened for biblical writers, who lived in a region where water was scarce and drought [see Dry, Drought] a constant threat to life. Water figures in the Bible in three ways – as a cosmic force that only God can control and govern, as a source of life, and as a cleansing agent. We can also detect a polarity at work in the six hundred biblical references to water: water can mean both life and death, blessing and affliction, order and chaos… …the waters of chaos suggested in Genesis 1:2 by the term deep…" [Page 929] End of excerpts My point in posting these excerpts was just to give you an idea of this interesting dictionary – I find it helpful to explore more aspects of a topic. You've started another interesting thread – I may contribute more later but for now I'm reviewing fire and water in this dictionary.

MarkO, thanks for the quotes from The Imitation of Christ. I read that a long time ago – I think I still have a copy in my attic somewhere – now you‘ve got me wanting to read it again… I agree…I recall a line from some book – think it’s from The Kingdom of the Cults – something about cults being the unpaid bills of the churches – basically goes along with what you said.

Have a good one, Lori !!!! We're glad we got to meet you at the BBQ! Tonto & T-Bone