T-Bone

Thanks, Tom. I changed it a few weeks ago…You or anyone else is welcome to use it…as long as you make a donation to my Corps Sponsorship, of course.

Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.

Well said, Groucho !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps…he lost me on his contingency list for God to supply our needs. And besides - the passage he referred to [Philippians 4:1-8] mentioned nothing of God supplying our every need – but speaks of the peace of God guarding our hearts and being with us…I prefer something simple and direct - like what’s in Matthew 6:33 – “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”

Yeah…that reminds me of another "great" thing I learned in PFAL – the vickster's great moral standard, "Love God and your neighbor and you can do as you full well please." After all, anything done in the love of God is okay - - right? "Father says I'm supposed to help myself to you…I mean…I myself should help you…here, have a drink, relax…sometimes these ministering sessions can get heavy…just relax and soak up God's love…it will just bless your panties off…I mean socks…it will just bless your socks off…Why, there's been women I've had...er...I've had...to help that were so blessed they can't even remember what happened here."

Actually, a choice is made by each of us at some point early on in our TWI involvement – we choose to trust the teacher and contents of PFAL. Thereafter, our choices are based on assuming all that is reliable, trustworthy, of God – and any choice other than one that honors the teacher or PFAL is wrong! That is the fine art of deception! That is the power of manipulation! Obviously, those who still have PFAL/vpw poison in their heads are not going to see through the TWI mind games...I do not fault any of the women molested by Pervertwille - I fault the little kingdom started by PFAL/vpw.

Sorry - I don't like clutter in my theology. PFAL and TWI added so many unnecessary complications to how life works. Shifra made a great point in post # 122 commenting on the Lord's Prayer: Ah, the beauty of simplicity. And if I may tweak that just a little I would say it refers to moral guidance – asking to be led away from temptation and delivered from evil. We're given a model of prayer that identifies what is essential: food, forgiveness and moral guidance. And reading further down in the same chapter, believers are directed to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness – and God will provide essential food, drink and clothing. Matthew 6:7-13, 25-34 NKJV 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c] 25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Also interesting to note that Jesus speaks of God supplying the needs of birds and the grass of the field. It reminds me of a similar idea in Psalms: Psalm 104:21 NKJV The young lions roar after their prey, And seek their food from God. From the natural eye perspective, we know animals and vegetation are capable of accomplishing these things themselves. Like them, man has a natural ability to work for the necessities of life. God's design of life incorporated a self-sustaining feature. Now we have stumbled upon something that works for saint and sinner alike…[drum roll, please]…WORK! Do the birds sit there and wait for food to come to them? Do flowers wait for the gardener to come dress them? Do lions stay in their den and order-in food? The Matthew 6 passage doesn't specify how God will provide/add these essential things for us. I am just thinking out loud here with all I've said. Jesus said the Gentiles also seek those things. Jesus did specify the believer's first priority should be to seek the kingdom of God – assuming God has worked out all the details of providing the essentials for us. The point of Jesus' analogy was not to WORRY about the NECESSITIES of life. He didn't say "don't work" – He said "don't worry." I actually heard a TWI teaching using this Matthew 6 passage as a guide for getting a nice big house. For me that's typical of the lazy and greedy mindset that TWI's law of believing fostered. Wanting something for free, a shortcut or get-rich-quick formula.

My post indicated nothing about questioning/doubting God's ability or attention to our heartfelt prayers. Submitting to God's sovereignty acknowledges that He is in charge – that is the essence of James 4:15 – "If it is the Lord's will for me to have this…if it is the Lord's will for it to happen now…" Do I want what I'm praying for? Of course – or I wouldn't be praying. But I no longer put my faith under the gun by having a rigid prayer results-on-demand way of approaching my Lord. What is the criteria that determines a clear answer or knowing you don't have to pray for something anymore? How is that not putting more demands on God? To have that kind of thinking as part of my modus operandi is to reduce prayer to nothing more than a self-centered grocery list, ignoring God's sovereignty – and for that matter leaves no room for God to work in my heart…in my opinion, prayer is a two way street…between me and God. I believe prayer is an open dialogue with God that naturally occurs in our dynamic relationship with Him. Yes, we are in a partnership with God – but sometimes we're not aware of things happening on our side of a prayer. How much we are affected by Him through prayer. I think of Paul repeatedly praying for God to take away his thorn in the flesh. God never did take it away – but He did answer Paul's prayer – He gave him the strength to handle it. Many years ago I came to a significant turning point in my prayer life. I had a serious run-in with my supervisor – we had a major disagreement over the way operations should be scheduled – and it got nasty in front of co-workers. Afterwards, a well-meaning Christian took me aside and said, "If I were you I'd pray for God's judgment on that guy." In other words, pray for something bad to happen to him…I didn't follow his advice – but his words threw my belief system into a tizzy. I think for about two weeks I kept wrestling with everything I learned about prayer from TWI and a sick feeling in my gut over this Christian's advice [his thinking akin to TWI's doctrine on prayer]. I could not bring myself to wish ill will toward my supervisor. I was in such a troubled state of mind I could only look through the Bible for verses on prayer - and made a conscious effort to ignore TWI's twist on things. When I stumbled upon the passage about praying for my enemies – I took it to heart. I prayed for his family, his career, his projects…basically asking God to shower him with blessings. Nothing ever changed in our situation – except my attitude towards my supervisor – and that made all the difference in the world – my time at work was enjoyable once again.

The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year. [edited...because my believing wasn't there to get it right the first time.]

Most scholars agree Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon toward the end of his life. As an old man, Solomon reflected on his journey through life, including his drift away from and back to God. And judging by his closing remarks I would say Solomon did repent. Ecclesiastes 12:9-14 NIV 9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true. 11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd. 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

Well, to be honest – I don't waste my time examining anybody's sins – whether people in the Bible or in present day. What I do think is critical - is to observe the person's response when confronted on their sinful actions. We are a fallen race – we all sin. The high moral standards of the Bible confronts us all – we all fall short in measuring up to them. And God doesn't want some hypocritical religious cover-up of our condition – He wants us to repent. I'll tell you what – for me personally, it is a very sobering process whenever I do think of vpw's behavior – it shows me what happens to someone when sin goes unchecked! You've done this before – listing the sins of those who wrote the Bible and try to slip vpw into the same category. The difference is obvious – the Bible does in fact EXPOSE the sins of writers, they are CONFRONTED – and they REPENT! That's a big deal to God – that's why the psalmist wrote: Psalm 51:16, 17 NIV 16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are [c] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. The vpw-defenders should be so honest! Any time there was a chance that one of the women he molested was going to spill the beans – sure as shootin' ol' vpw and cohorts would turn the tables and make sure she was deemed possessed – and pffft!!! "problem" solved – the woman is run off and his little man-o-god persona was preserved…Unlike the people of the Bible that you try to draw similarities to - for vpw there was NO biblical confrontation, NO exposing of his heinous sins, and therefore…and most importantly, NO repentance on his part.

I think you're way off course here – elevating PFAL to the level of Scripture. You're confusing the twisted doctrines of a cult leader [vpw] with what real men of God wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 7 and II Peter 2 warns of false teachers and false prophets – they will be known by their fruit [fruit indicating what type of tree they are – the fruit of the wolf's labor has one goal - to prey upon the sheep], life-dominating sinful behavior, and poisonous teachings. No where in the Bible are we directed to honor such people – but rather to shun them – and as a service to our fellowman warn others! It is ironic that one of the beneficial claims of PFAL was that it enables you to separate truth from error. What PFAL students failed to realize was that the criteria for discerning between truth and error was vpw's skewed viewpoint.

Great post, Pond - that's some deep stuff!

Welcome to Grease Spot, Another Dan – good post! You've got me thinking about the fall of man in relation to loving God and loving neighbor as myself. In the first sin by the human race – I see a blatant disregard of these love principles. Adam and Eve's doubt and disobedience of God struck a devastating blow to their loving relationship with God. And ignoring God's warning of the harm they would bring upon themselves ["You shall surely die"] they showed little regard for their own well being as well as that of their companion.

I'm thinking others may not mind the list of Jay Adams' books – most of it is great stuff relevant to this thread of ministering grace. The books that I have of his are: Competent to Counsel The Christian Counselor's Manual Essays on Counseling More than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures Solving Marriage Problems A Call to Discernment: Distinguishing Truth from Error in Today's Church Shepherding God's Flock: A Preacher's Handbook on Pastoral Ministry, Counseling, and Leadership The War Within: A Biblical Strategy for Spiritual Warfare The Biblical View of Self-Esteem, Self-Love, Self-Image Christian Living in the Home Truth Apparent: Essays on Biblical Preaching Helps for Counselors: A Mini-manual for Christian Counseling The Christian Counselor's Wordbook: A Primer of Nouthetic Counseling Grist from Adams' Mill A Thirst for Wholeness

More like slain in the brain.

Great post, Jeaniam! I love Jay Adams' stuff! Excellent reference for this thread. Thanks!

Kids love the Happy Meal…comes with a Board of Trustee non-action figure.

Looking at the context of this passage, the biggest things that hit me are conflict resolution, being a help and not a hindrance to another, and helping each other solve problems. Ephesians 4:25-32 NIV 25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Thought I'd post some interesting excerpts from The Holman New Testament Commentary: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians by Max Anders, page 156, Ephesians 4:29, 30: "…Words of mature Christians seek to help the listener, not harm him…We are not saying that you can never say anything negative. Sometimes we are forced to talk about unpleasant things, particularly in solving problems in which people are involved. Teachers, ministers, employers, coaches, lawyers, police, and so on, all find it necessary to tell the truth about someone even if it is unpleasant. Whether you are solving a problem or not, you avoid speaking unwholesome words. Your intent is to build up, not tear down, to unify, not divide…" End of excerpts I was thinking how critical this is any time someone is going through a crisis, wading through issues of a problem…something we've all experienced leaving TWI…I think what ministers a lot of grace is simple counsel from someone who has no other agenda than helping to solve a problem. It's about working together toward a realistic picture of what's going on, identifying key issues, and sorting out the good, the bad and the ugly…I don't come to Grease Spot to win people to my way of thinking. I say what I say in hope that it inspires someone to do their best thinking.

I totally agree with that idea!!!!!!!!!!!! And I think for some folks it was the other way around – some twig coordinators "protected" the image of TWI. To cover up…whitewash blatant sin…to ignore addressing critical issues – is to condone what they did…it enabled TWI to continue on its evil way…To anyone in a leadership capacity who knowingly went along with TWI's line of crap I say "shame on you!" That's no different than the hypocrites Jesus talked about: Matthew 23:23-28 NIV 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Hmmm…I dunno…with him carrying on like that for a few posts and escalating to a larger font – I think he went over into idiocy.

Great posts everyone! One of the great PFAL "principles" that is debunked here at Grease Spot is "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Evident on just about every thread is that people don't think alike. Everyone has a unique perspective and experiences. Amidst all the clatter of folks talking about what's good about PFAL, what's bad about PFAL – there appears to be something that has happened…or rather continues to happen…and I think it's a NORMAL process…called growth. It's a natural byproduct of using our critical and creative thinking skills…We no longer allow ourselves to be fettered by the intellectual ball and chain of TWI.

Perhaps he's speaking in an unknown dumb...but I think I recognize a TWItish dialect in there somewhere.

[nervously looking about]...uhm...before I say anything...do you have some kind of witness-protection program?

Personally, I think vpw used phrases like "the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" and "when it comes to the Word I have no friends" as a deceitful tool – elevating his skewed interpretation of the Bible to be on par with Scripture! You're left with only two choices in PFAL – vpw's viewpoint which is always right or any other viewpoint which is always wrong. [P.S. In PFAL, "The Word" is code for vpw's interpretation of the Bible.]