T-Bone

Doojable posted this great gem in A few big things I learned taking PFAL :

Great mind picture, Dooj ! I like that - and think that's pretty much how it was.

The greatest secret in the world today: how to avoid living a holy life but telling everyone else the Word of God is the will of God. <_<

Some folks do the other thing too...P - U ! Very funny post, Hap - thanks!

How holy was his secret life?

That reminds me….I think a big thing lacking in PFAL was the fear of God and sin-consciousness. vpw interpreted what Jesus Christ did for us as reason to believe what we did in the flesh was of little or no consequence. We heard in his class that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction. He had a tendency to make study of the Bible an intellectual pursuit rather than a moral guide. So vpw's application of that was to reprove and correct followers that didn't follow his doctrine…to his liking. There was definitely a fear of vpw when I was in TWI. It didn't matter if you were a goody-two-shoes or an unscrupulous son-of-a-b1tch – just don't buck PFAL stuff – or there will be hell to pay!

Wow…Another Spot – awesome post and thread…everyone’s posts…great!...I don’t have a blessed thing to contribute – because I just got my mind blown…like Rascal was saying – so many more pieces coming together [loved your story by the way]. I was busy buzzin’ around other threads and Tonto asked me if I checked this one out – sure glad I did…I’ve scanned The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse – will get back to it someday – right now I’m re-reading Hassan’s Combating Cult Mind Control…So much to read and think about…so little time.

If you have to plagiarize another man's fruit to get people to pick from your branches – you might be a bad tree. If you think the Way Tree takes the place of the absent Christ – you might be a bad tree. If your root is in the 45871 Zip Code – you might be a bad tree. If you think the way to prune a tree is to mark and avoid – you might be a bad tree. If you're rotten to the Corps and anyone else that supports your system – you might be a bad tree. If you find you spook the flock when you forget to put on your sheep's clothing – you might be a bad tree. If you prefer fleecing the sheep over helping the sheep – you might be a bad tree. If you think women's fellowship is a target-rich environment – you might be a bad tree. If you drug the females of the flock to have your way with them – you might be a very bad tree. Brother Foxworthy

Yup - I remember an Advanced Class with vpw showing a video of the guy massaging the skin, opening it and removing something - - without any surgical instruments. It was at Advanced Class 78. If memory serves me right - I think it was that Philippines guy...Yeah - in depth spiritual perception alright - he piled it high and deep.

Knowing that you can't go beyond what you're taught, Throg often wondered what to do with the round things he carved out of stone or wood – or what came over him to make such things.

The other day I was thinking about how TWI folks loved to point out a success story and attribute it to some PFAL principle or if some already professionally successful person took PFAL – folks acted almost as if all their achievements should be chalked up to PFAL…I then had the thought if the Vickster had a time machine – we’d never hear the end of it. There’d be tales of famous people throughout history making reference to PFAL.....Then it was a simple process of designing an appropriate time machine.

Hi Roses – take your time processing everything! The JC is God/not God was a big issue for me for the longest time after I left TWI…Now I’ve gravitated back to many of my beliefs before I got into TWI. I was raised Roman Catholic – and so now feel very comfortable in the Trinitarian camp. I am a study bug and this used to be one of the most critical doctrines I studied – not anymore. You may want to search the doctrinal forum here – there’s been a few interesting discussions on the JC is God/not God issue. Now I’m not saying this is the right way to go about it – but how I determine if a doctrine is critical is by looking at how well defined it is in Scripture as well as its practical impact. I think the issue of whether JC is God or not could swing either way from the amount of Scripture and logic both sides use. I go with what makes sense to me – so I lean toward Trinitarian…Now onto the practical impact – let’s look at one Christian who believes Jesus is God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. Another Christian believes Jesus is not God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. What’s the difference? I get along great with everyone – regardless of their beliefs – even if they’re not Christian. About the only time I run into a problem is when the practical impact of someone’s doctrine/beliefs runs counter to the moral dictates of Scripture. For example, if someone believes it’s okay to commit adultery, sexually molest women or plagiarize – I don’t get along with them very well. Maybe it’s just me.

Word Wolf – thanks for the clarification. I should issue a correction for my post # 79 by retracting "no one ever confronted him." I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes - but did try to qualify the lack of his being confronted by the fact that he surrounded himself with people that "kissed his a$$." Anybody that crossed him was - - phffffffft - blown outta there! And my apologies to all those who had the courage to confront him. Another Dan – everyone needs to go at their own pace processing this stuff.

The context of Matthew 7: 1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged" does not indicate a blanket prohibition on all judging – just self-righteous, hypocritical judging. For as you read on you'll find we're expected to use good judgment in a few situations: use honest criteria for self-evaluation and in counseling others [verses 2-5], know the difference between those who are antagonistic to the gospel and those who are receptive [verse 6], know when to ask, seek, and knock [verses 7-11], evaluate how you treat others by the Golden Rule [verse 12], know difference between the wide and narrow gate [verses 13,14], identify false prophets and false brethren [verses 15-27]. Judgment of someone's heart, intentions or destiny is God's job. But the exercise of good moral judgment is definitely a responsibility of Christians – as evident in the case of the Corinthians who allowed blatant immorality to defile their church – Paul had to exhort them to judge those inside the church – those outside God judges . vpw and TWI would always expect people to sever the connection between the eyeballs and the conscience – get people to doubt their own powers of discernment. I imagine IF the kind of moral uprightness that Paul called for in I Corinthians, expecting people to submit to the moral demands of Scripture – was active during vpw's ministry – things may have turned out completely different – as we read of the good that came from Paul's reproof in II Corinthians...But no - no one ever confronted him - the people closest to him that knew of his ways - and kissed his a$$ - were in charge of covering up his sins to maintain that pristine man-o-god persona.

I'm going to go with him being a false prophet. Jesus gave a very explicit description and criteria to help us spot false prophets: Matthew 7:15-23 NASB 15"Beware of the (L)false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves. 16"You will (N)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17"So (O)every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19"(P)Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20"So then, you will know them (Q)by their fruits. 21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' According to Deuteronomy 13 and 18, false prophets lead people AWAY from God and their words do not come to pass. In describing a false prophet as a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing, we are clued in to their nature – a very greedy predator intent on exploiting Christians through deceptive means. And it's possible the sheep's clothing is an allusion to the woolen attire that real shepherds wear! They're not sneaking in to the fold to take the sheep out one by one – but leading the whole flock astray! Jesus said the telltale sign is to look at their fruit. Some people misunderstand this passage – thinking He meant watch out for some bad fruit mixed in with the good fruit. But Jesus said we'll know what kind of tree it is BY the fruit. Apples come from an apple tree, oranges from an orange tree, etc. What is the fruit? Going on the verses following it seems the fruit may be the consequences of actions [verses 21-23]. I think of someone who has built a business and you could say of them – I see the fruit of their labor – the consequences of their actions. The whole point of a wolf's actions is to feed their voracious appetite! Where some people may get confused when having mixed emotions about TWI – is they fail to separate the bait from the trap. A hunter will use real food to lure his prey. TWI quotes Scripture out the whazoo and go through the motions of being Christian. An unsuspecting Christian is lured by the sweet taste of Scripture or the sweet fellowship – but everything comes with strings attached…the mechanisms of entanglement. A TWI follower absorbs a knowledge of the Bible that has not only skewed strands of interpretation woven into it but mental machinery designed to keep them trapped: "Remember who taught you the Word…Where else are you going to go?...Who else has this much rightly divided Word?...You're a member of the household now...You walk out on God's Word and you're outside of God's protection." …And so the trap is sprung – so that self-serving TWI can suck the time, energy, emotion, resources, finances…the very life out of its prey.

Through a series of extraordinarily plagiaristic events, the Vickster succeeded in outfitting his motor coach with time-traveling capability. By simply filling the flux capacitor with high octane Drambui and accelerating the motor coach to 88 miles per hour people would see some serious BS. Emblazoned on the front of the bus: Coming to you this day and time and hour…and on the rear of the bus: BS you abundantly. People across time have reaped the benefits of PFAL ever since. I have discovered a law that works for energy and mass alike. Believing energy equals receiving mass times the speed of light squared.

Super cool animation, Sudo!...oh...uh...guess I can say happy birthday to ya again, Raf......wow! that's a darn good animation thing...

Welcome, Outfield...the only test I recall from PFAL was when you ask the pendant "yes? no? yes? no? yes? no?...yes?...yes! - alright boys and girls - let's take a five minute break before we finish up tonight's session."

Welcome to Grease Spot, Roses To You – where there’s lots of options – but I’ll list just a few: The baby got out of the bathwater a long time ago. Put the baby up for adoption – use bathwater to make coffee for the Twig. Replace the baby with three men in the tub – TWI’s original board of trustees – tell them to play hide the salami. Install an elaborate filtration system to re-cycle existing bathwater. Drain bathtub – verify baby doesn’t go down the drain. Give baby a bath with Wet Wipes. Don’t let the baby get dirty to begin with. Run baby through a pre-wash cycle before main bath. Have baby dry cleaned. Train baby to throw bathwater out. Develop a throw baby / bathwater simulation program to run various scenarios, noting variations due to force of throw, wind direction and speed, mood of the baby and person throwing, etc. Build a mock-up baby / bathwater throwing demonstration using a poodle and keg of beer. Whoever throws the poodle the farthest gets the keg of beer.

The forecast for your birthday is...happy!

I think that is a bit strained – Genesis is a book about Moses? Genesis is a book of beginnings. Moses is not even born until Exodus 2. As to other New Testament references, Luke 24:25-27 ESV 25And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26(AE) Was it not necessary that(AF) the Christ should suffer these things and enter into(AG) his glory?" 27And(AH) beginning with(AI) Moses and(AJ) all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. In verse 27, Jesus began with Moses – did He begin with the person of Moses or the books that Moses wrote? I lean toward He's referring to the Pentateuch. Acts 15:1 ESV 1(A) But some men came down from Judea and were teaching(B) the brothers, "Unless you are(C) circumcised(D) according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." This may be a bit of a stretch – maybe not. The passage refers to circumcision as the custom of Moses. However, the covenant of circumcision was instituted by God with Abraham in Genesis 17. Genesis 17:9-14 ESV 9And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a(M) sign of the covenant between me and you. 12He who is(N) eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or(O) bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant." So why is the custom attributed to Moses? I don't know – unless it's another way of citing the reference – not by book title – but by author. Like I would refer to the book 7 Habits of Highly Successful People by Stephen Covey by saying "Real success is built on Covey's principles."

I had no problem believing any of the women who told their stories. My heart and prayers wish nothing but love and healing for them – and I admire their strength and courage to get the word out. I'll tell you why I had no problem believing them. I've shared this before on several threads – my being Corps and having to watch the vickster's favorite porn video at a pajama party. Well, after reading Grease Spot over Tonto's shoulder for awhile, I joined GSC and at some point was able to connect the dots in my de-TWItified brain. I remember thinking back on that pajama party and it occurred to me, "Here's proof enough for me what he was really like – and it was right in front of our [the Corps'] noses all along!" On stage [playing to the general TWI audience], vickster maintained the pristine man-o-god persona. Back stage [playing to Corps and Staff] he was not as guarded in his ways. Passing off his lecherous ways as if he was so spiritual, pure in heart, above all that. That not only revealed his true character but served to acclimatize us dumb-bots to his way of thinking….Grrrrrrrrrr …I think I'm gonna barf!...I ought to barf in a FedEx mailer - send that to TWI with a note – "I finally got my VCR to eject your porn video and thought you might want it back."

Cool thread, Another Dan [Love the family photo]! Great posts everyone!!!!!...Matter of fact – this is a GREAT thread because you want ME to talk about MY beliefs. Oh yeah, now we're talkin'…er…uhm…well, actually I'm doing the talking…well more like typing…okay, technically if you're reading this – I'm done with the typing – you're doing the reading… oh, never mind! Anyway - I swear by all that's boring I'm gonna make you regret the day I laid eyes on your post # 1 ! I am not the least bit shy in letting everyone here know how screwed up I am doctrinally. Your survey questions are in bold – my answers are in blue. Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U A qualified true. I believe Adam and Eve are historical figures – but I think they lived a little further back in the timeline. Hugh Ross mentions in one of his books – that cave drawings indicating religious concepts appear about 35,000 years ago. Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U True. Maybe at this point I should mention I'm a Trinitarian too – if that matters to anyone. That's right – I'm three times as confused about the identity of God. The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U Absolutely true! The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U False. Considering references to Job are in the Old and New Testament I believe Job was a real person – who really experienced those things. However, I don't think the book explains human suffering – but does show quite a difference between our wisdom/perspective and God's. The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U True. Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U False. The literary style and vocabulary don't hit me as that of Paul. Not really concerned about it – all Scripture is inspired of God. Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U True. Quite a few New Testament references attribute it to Moses. See second half of my response to who wrote Hebrews. David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U Unsure. Never thought about it until you asked. Again see my Hebrews response. Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. T/F/U Unsure – on how to resolve the two. I lean towards James giving Christians a way to evaluate their faith – if it is genuine or not. Four were crucified with Jesus. T/F/U Unsure – and don't see why it should matter anyway – Jesus should get top billing on this one! I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. T/F/U False. I stopped doing that years ago. Don't think what I did was genuine. God loves homosexuals. T/F/U True. Homosexuality is not a sin. T/F/U False. But I don't make a big deal over this like TWI did. I had a good friend in college who was gay - we still communicate with each other...Guess I'm not cut out for the hell, fire, and brimstone bandwagon. You may want to refer to my true confessions below under some of Jesus' teachings being impossible to carry out. God does not hate. T/F/U False. In the Bible, it appears God experiences emotions – who says I have to attribute God's emotional expressions to a figure of speech? 1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) T/F/U False or maybe unsure – how about Falsure? I lean towards cessation – that it was no longer available after the church was firmly established. And on another issue -my take on I Corinthians 12 "distributing severally as he wills" is in reference to God – in other words God decides who gets what – and not all nine…But like a lot of things – I may be wrong – there's nothing saying God can't distribute these manifestations again – or that He hasn't done so throughout the church's history…On this topic I have to defer to my own experiences. I've never been around anything that I thought was a genuine manifestation. The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. T/F/U False. I wouldn't put it that way – though I would say there's a partnership between God and the one who's praying. I acknowledge the sovereignty of God but cannot fathom it. Maybe at times – God deems the way something happens is through someone's prayer. Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW's are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U False. I'll let God be the judge on any religion. Heck, I sometimes wonder how much I've perverted Christianity! Besides, I think it's a beautiful thing that we all don't think alike – matter of fact I think God intended it that way – by a weird checks and balances system made up of the entire human race. Some of Jesus' teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U False. But I will say it does seem that way most of the time. Boy, I tell yah – I wish He wouldn't have made such a big deal over being angry with a brother or looking on a woman with lust – doggonit – I've gotta be the world's biggest sinner…But I am working to better myself. Figure if I don't do those things on the Sabbath [sort of a day of rest…from sin] [oops – I'm jumping ahead on the Sabbath question] I'm that much a better person for it. "Sin consciousness" is not in the believer's self-interest. T/F/U False. Since I left TWI I've quit sedating my conscience. You know gauges on a dashboard are a good thing – they serve a purpose. The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. T/F/U True. There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U Falsure [see my waffling answer to I Corinthians 12]. Requiring narrative answers (short or long): When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean? My Study Bible says the phrase literally means "born from above" – which emphasizes the source of the new birth – God! Which goes along with Him talking about the wind blows, you hear its sound but can't tell where it comes from/goes and those who are born of the Spirit. Again – emphasizing the source – the Holy Spirit – which cannot be controlled or understood by us. What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)? I don't think the commandment is mentioned that much in the New Testament – like the other nine – so I interpret that as it losing a big priority for believers. I do think it's a good idea to set aside one day a week to recoup, recharge the battery, refocus on what's important in life.

That is precisely what I meant in my statement – a realistic picture takes in ALL the details. I do a similar thing in dealing with my own TWI experience. I look at the good and bad experiences I've had…and doctrine-wise have tried to discern what's right/wrong/inconclusive/doesn't matter…It's my impression that's what a lot of folks do here. Now I think some folks who have never experienced the dark side of TWI's underbelly these horror stories can be a real shocker…maybe even a devastating blow to their belief system. And if their belief system has been hit that hard – it makes me wonder how much of it is based on reality. I think once people get past the denial phase and learn to accept reality – that's the whole picture – the good and the bad – they develop a much stronger belief system.

Those are great points to think about, Oak…and I'm not attempting to cite any doctrinal standards on this stuff. But I will share what I often think about on one of my favorite passages – not saying any of this is right – it's just thinking out loud. I think of the context – Matthew 5 to 7 is Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Near the beginning He mentions the kingdom of heaven and righteousness. Matthew 5:17-20 NIV 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. I may be way off on this – but maybe this relates to Matthew 6:33. When I think of doctrine and systematic theology – I have the convenience of printed Bibles and all that's been written on any given biblical topic. All Jesus' audience had were His words of the moment. What I gather from this Matthew 5 section – practicing and teaching God's commands are a BIG DEAL in God's kingdom! Actions do speak louder than words in my book, anyway. I'm so tempted to draw in Luke 17 where Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you [some texts read "among you"]. The kingdom of God is something spiritual...Jesus sends us on a spiritual quest of top priority...a seeking first...Maybe it's a matter of making our top priority - to conduct our affairs in ways that honor heaven - which might also provide a signpost for other seekers...I dunno...Am I seeking first to address everything from God's perspective?...uh oh - afraid I went from interpretation over into straight babbling...better have an exceler's session. In my opinion, Jesus always emphasized the moral aspect of God's commands – therefore the word "righteousness" is used. And that we should truly submit to the righteous [moral] demands of Scripture – unlike the hypocrites He mentions in Matthew 5:20. The way I see the personal application of seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness is how I focus on my day. I think about the two great commands love God and neighbor. Anything I'm involved with today - is it something that is legitimate? And not only that – but do my intentions, attitudes and actions honor God? What do my actions and attitudes say about God? What would my actions and attitudes inspire other people to think or do? One of my favorite books is Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. He makes the point in his book about true success is based on something of real value, like integrity, industry, love, the Golden Rule, etc. – and not on taking shortcuts. I'm probably all over the map here – sorry. But it all ties together for me. Like I was saying in a previous post – how God designed us with self-sustaining features. To me things like people applying themselves, being disciplined, working smart, being honest, having compassion, etc. honors our Creator who gave us that potential. And I think those are the things that not only help put food on our tables and clothes on our backs – but satisfies some deep psychological need as well.