T-Bone

Aren't you glad toxic faith is not a communicable disease.....well, I guess it's not...once you're outside of the breeding grounds . [edited to remove parasites ]

Great post, Sirguessalot….your posts always get me thinking…feeling…I love your phrase "bandwidth of faiths" a poetic rendition of spiritual technology - just kidding…about the spiritual technology part ….but I do love the phrase. Stuff like this is one of the many reasons why I come to GSC. ….Feeling very small in a HUGE Cosmos…..Here is a simple picture of my faith back in my TWI-daze. I had a darkened dome overhead. The underside [facing me] had the stars painted on them. I used that for my navigation system on life's journey. Anybody else in a TWI-daze would have a similar darkened dome – so our reference points would often concur and offer some reassurance we're headed in the "right" direction…. …..I'm not claiming to have gotten rid of the dome at this stage of my life….just trying to scratch off the paint and see more of the real sky. The more I engage folks who DO NOT THINK LIKE ME the more transparent this dome becomes….I sometimes pray, "Lord, help me to be aware of the limitations of my perspective and grant me an adventurous spirit to explore beyond it."

Suda, after I read this - your mental picture stayed with me all day long. A fantastic image! All your posts have been great, by the way – but this one – it just floored me! The new students of PFAL were not aware of the web being spun. Typical grads of PFAL didn't see the web for what it is – a manipulative framework of thought – because they were acclimatized to it – like putting on rose-colored glasses. After awhile, you forget they're on and think everything is supposed to have a rose tint to it.

Love your stories, Another Spot!

Great thread, Oak! I enjoy learning about stuff like this. Unless I make a conscious effort to analyze a particular TWI viewpoint…a lot of their old BS just sits there in my head…great article, Larry – thanks for posting that.

What do you call smog? Air Apparent.

Rosie Palm: "The guy is a real jerk - he had it coming."

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [pulling Seth aside: I sure hope you checked with your leadership first, before doing something like this].

Wow, this is like six degrees of the board of trustees...lcm hands over the kingdom to Rosie Palm and her five sisters.

I talked about this on TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread and on Shifra's Agape or Arrogance thread – how there seems to be a common sense of decency and morality in people of any time and culture – we see that laws are usually made to protect life, promote honesty, protect ownership, etc. It appears to me that there is something inherent in people – that transcends culture and belief systems that enables folks to discern right from wrong. And perhaps it takes a deliberate act of the will or rigid conditioning to dull this function....of course, that's just my opinion.

That is an interesting thought, Linda…If memory serves me right [i'm at work right now – can't look it up] the Greek text reads "o monogenes huios" = "the only begotten son." If you look at the word monogenes – it is composed of two words mono = one and genes = kind…..and perhaps could mean Jesus Christ is one of a kind.

Note to self: Maybe now would be a good time to start The-Beatles-will-get back-together-if-you-pass-on-this-chain-letter-PM.

Was with TWI for 12 years. Left in 86 – it’s taken me all those years up until now to discover the flaws – and the list is still growing. But it’s really more of a hobby now – my main thing is enjoying life without TWI’s intellectual ball and chain around my head….And oh yeah, I mindlessly absorbed everything in PFAL. Oh…there’s a bunch of PFAL slop highlights – I can think of one right off the top – the Vickster talks about the Bible being of no private interpretation – suggesting the Bible interprets itself – and from the II Peter text goes into how the Word interprets itself. However, reading the CONTEXT of the passage it’s obvious to me that it’s talking about the origin of the Scriptures and not the interpretation of the Scriptures. I don’t know about you – but that shows me the teacher doesn’t know how to use the "keys" to the Word’s interpretation that he's presenting. Incompetence! I guess his version of making it his own was to plagiarize Bullinger’s stuff and slap his name on it. Not sure what you’re looking for on your last question. There’s always gullible folks. But I think if people applied the critical thinking skills they used in everyday life to PFAL – they’d probably notice a lot more of its intellectual shortcomings.

The onus is really on the uninformed observer – the one wanting to make an informed decision. If they were smart, they wouldn’t just listen to one person’s opinion. And what is the decision they’re needing to make, anyway? Is PFAL everything they claim it is?...I would think a smart uninformed observer would find some helpful things from my response: “I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.” To elaborate on the helpful hints in my reply – I would suggest the uninformed observer get familiar with things the class covers: read other translations of the Bible, systematic theologies from various authors, study the field of biblical hermeneutics, have basic knowledge of biblical languages, critical texts….then take PFAL – and apply the same intellectual standards used in all the stuff I just mentioned with the content of PFAL…I did it in reverse order – I took PFAL first – after leaving TWI I checked out these things and found out how slipshod ol’ Vickster was. Besides plagiarizing, making up his own definitions of biblical words, he’d fabricate texts.

Agreed. A discriminating shopper will check things out for themselves and comparison shop. Seems like there's a lack of criteria or intellectual standards when most folks talk about PFAL – that's why I said "based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI". In my opinion, PFAL is a sloppy patchwork of systematic theology, philosophies of questionable pedigree and Gnostic-like commentary that is solely based on one deceitful, lewd, deluded, egocentric man…When it comes to Bible study - the PFAL grad is not into "comparison shopping", checking out other viewpoints…other commentaries, doing their own research – or even checking out a "consumer report" [like this thread – listen to all the satisfied customers of PFAL ]….Really, I do agree – I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship. …by the way, I was responding to your post by saying what I would tell someone about PFAL. Did I say there isn't anything good in PFAL? I said, "I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL." I'd enjoy going over every point in PFAL – to quantify "a substantial amount" but I bet I'd bore everyone here to tears…and this is not the doctrinal forum anyway. I love talking about what I believe - did so on Another Dan's Spot Survey thread…It seems most PFAL grads have a hard time analyzing something they've mindlessly absorbed for years – and so it's difficult for them to articulate what THEY THINK point by point with PFAL.

I see PFAL as being more trouble than it's worth to get much good out of it. That's just my opinion, of course – based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI. I'm not saying I'm right on everything that I believe now – but when I consider that I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL and anything I thought was valid could have easily been found elsewhere without having to pay for and sit through a long class – I've just gotta say – why bother? I wasted a whole lot of time and energy to find out that a lot of PFAL is worthless. So, if I were an honest salesman trying to sell PFAL – I'd say "The teacher quotes a lot of the KJV Bible – a translation I find inaccurate and hard to read, I disagree with over 90 % of the teacher's interpretation of it, and you've got to watch out for the practical consequence of that 90 %. You risk the possibility of spinning your wheels trying to make God do things for you, making screwball decisions based on feelings and elusive first-thoughts, screwing up your life, losing friends and family, becoming an arrogant & judgmental a$$ toward Christians who hadn't taken PFAL – but if you're okay with all that – hey, I'll be more than happy to take your $100 dollars."

I think a smart way to reflect on my past is twofold: be aware of where I am now and know what direction I want to go. It’s viewing life as a journey. It’s not re-writing my history…maybe a little of re-interpreting it through different eyes…getting my bearings, making course adjustments. I liked the translation Excathedra referred to: Philippians 3:12-14 The Message 12-14I'm not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me. Friends, don't get me wrong: By no means do I count myself an expert in all of this, but I've got my eye on the goal, where God is beckoning us onward—to Jesus. I'm off and running, and I'm not turning back. I like this translation because I get that idea of a journey – Paul is running – like a long distance runner – life’s journey. Paul is focused on a goal. He knows the direction he wants to head toward – and will not head back to where he came from. I was a Christian before I got involved with TWI. Being in my late teens, I believed…or hoped there was some meaning to life. I don’t think I saw it that clearly back then – but I was definitely on a spiritual journey - I was searching. I looked into Eastern Religions, astral projection, and ESP. The reason I took PFAL was for the one claim on the Green Card: Makes Life Meaningful…. Guess some of this would sort of fit on the A Few Big Things I learned Taking PFAL thread….Back in TWI daze - I think I was looking in the right place [the Bible] but looking at it the wrong way – thinking the secret of life was in a book – that it was the end of my search. I now view the Bible as a means of connecting with God. A relationship with Him – and not a book – has brought meaning to my life. My journey isn’t over yet….I’ll tell you a big thing I got out of PFAL – not being afraid to read the Bible. And a really big thing I enjoy now after leaving TWI is not being afraid to think when I read the Bible.

Great point, Polar Bear – that’s my take on Paul in Philippians 3 also!... In TWI, I got it mixed up so many times: ignoring things in my past that were within my control, that would have made a difference if I responded this way or that - while believing I had power over things beyond my control…just spinning my wheels…I like what Another Spot said on the Spiritual Abuse thread: Your experiences don’t define you – but your response to them does…In Philippians 3, I see that Paul didn’t let his past control him – his response to Christ changed his focus.

Go with it, Rascal... I'm at work right now - and will definitely contribute to it - I would like some more think time and mull over other contributions too. Geez, this is a fun place!

For me - it was in the crisis management phase after POP. I felt so frustrated with leadership walking around like chickens with their heads cut off. The thought occurred to me that maybe there's something wrong with the way we do things. TWI's mismanagement triggered the analytical section of my brain. I began to question...to think.

In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed. What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level. To avoid reflection is to stymie healing, growth, understanding, character development.

Wow wee !!! You are on a roll, sister!!!!!!!!

Outfield…you might want to check out the rest of Grease Spot…My goodness - - there’s the Just Plain Silly forum, the Doctrinal forum [two of my favorites], there’s all kinds of topics in the Open forum…take a break…have some fun…dialogue with folks in one of those forums. Gee wiz…there’s the Friend Tracker, Prayer Room, Reading Room, etc. There’s A LOT MORE that goes on here than just that one thread!!! Great counsel, positive, healing, enlightening, empowering, loving, stuff! Relax....enjoy!

(((((((Another Spot))))))) Words…thoughts fail me anytime I hear stories of abuse. I love what you said, "your experiences don't define you. Your response does." We live in a fallen world – I agree with your aunt – life isn't for sissies. The world can be a jungle – with fierce predators. I've heard the real turn on for the rapist is the feeling of power. I don't think predators are very powerful – they just seek prey who they perceive as less powerful than them. You have no idea how much this stuff just angers and disgusts me.…As parents of a child with special needs, Tonto and I often have to reign in our fears and worries with prayer, trust in God and stay alert and proactive for the safety and security of our daughter. As I've followed this thread I've been thinking about a passage on spiritual abuse: Revelation 2:1-7, 12-15 NASB 1"To the angel of the church in (A)Ephesus write: The One who holds (B)the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks (C)among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2'(D)I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you (E)put to the test those who call themselves (F)apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3and you have perseverance and have endured (G)for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. 4'But I have this against you, that you have (H)left your first love. 5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and (I)repent and (J)do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your (K)lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. 6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the (L)Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7'(M)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (N)To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of (O)the tree of life which is in the (P)Paradise of God.' [skipping to verse 12…] 12"And to the angel of the church in (AF)Pergamum write: The One who has (AG)the sharp two-edged sword says this: 13'I know where you dwell, where (AH)Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny (AI)My faith even in the days of Antipas, My (AJ)witness, My (AK)faithful one, who was killed among you, (AL)where Satan dwells. 14'But (AM)I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the (AN)teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, (AO)to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the (AP)Nicolaitans. 16'Therefore (AQ)repent; or else (AR)I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with (AS)the sword of My mouth. 17'(AT)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (AU)To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden (AV)manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a (AW)new name written on the stone (AX)which no one knows but he who receives it.' ~~ I found an interesting note in The MacArthur Study Bible on verse 6 "the deeds of the Nicolaitans": "2:6 the deeds of the Nicolaitans. A problem in Pergamum also [vv. 12-15], this heresy was similar to the teaching of Balaam [verses 14,15]. Nicolas means "one who conquers the people." Irenaeus writes that Nicolas, who was made a deacon in Acts 6, was a false believer who later became apostate; but because of his credentials he was able to lead the church astray. And, like Balaam, he led the people into immorality and wickedness. The Nicolaitans, followers of Nicolas were involved in immorality and assaulted the church with sensual temptations. Clement of Alexander says, "They abandoned themselves to pleasure like goats, leading a life of self-indulgence." Their teaching perverted grace and replaced liberty with license." End of excerpt Now that got me thinking about another passage in II Peter: II Peter 2:1-22 NASB 1But (A)false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be (B)false teachers (C)among you, who will (D)secretly introduce (E)destructive heresies, even (F)denying the (G)Master who (H)bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their (I)sensuality, and because of them (J)the way of the truth will be (K)maligned; 3and in their (L)greed they will (M)exploit you with (N)false words; (O)their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4For (P)if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and (Q)committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare (R)the ancient world, but preserved (S)Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a (T)flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and if He (U)condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an (V)example to those who would (W)live ungodly lives thereafter; 7and if He (X)rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the (Y)sensual conduct of (Z)unprincipled men 8(for by what he saw and heard that (AA)righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9(AB)then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the (AC)day of judgment, 10and especially those who (AD)indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and (AE)despise authority Daring, (AF)self-willed, they do not tremble when they (AG)revile angelic majesties, 11(AH)whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12But (AI)these, like unreasoning animals, (AJ)born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as (AK)the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to (AL)revel in the (AM)daytime They are stains and blemishes, (AN)reveling in their [a]deceptions, as they (AO)carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, (AP)enticing (AQ)unstable souls, having a heart trained in (AR)greed, (AS)accursed children; 15forsaking (AT)the right way, they have gone astray, having followed (AU)the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved (AV)the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, (AW)for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17These are (AX)springs without water and mists driven by a storm, (AY)for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out (AZ)arrogant words of (BA)vanity they (BB)entice by fleshly desires, by (BC)sensuality, those who barely (BD)escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for (BE)by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have (BF)escaped the defilements of the world by (BG)the knowledge of the (BH)Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again (BI)entangled in them and are overcome, (BJ)the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21(BK)For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from (BL)the holy commandment (BM)handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "(BN)A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." Sorry for the long post with all the Scripture Doctrinal[/b] forum] – but folks, after plodding through the effects of toxic doctrine...the destruction it brings to people's lives on the A Few Big Things I learned taking PFAL thread – and a few folks yammering about looking for the good in PFAL – I hate to burst anyone's bubble but – DO YOU SEE A PATTERN HERE?!?! Destructive doctrine and morally depraved teachers go hand in hand. I see it in Scripture – and experienced it first hand in TWI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We don't even have to think about the stuff done in secret - just think about his drunken, lewd lifestyle that defined him at any campus. And I have yet to hear a vpw-defender justify him showing the porn video on a regular basis or coming on to a sixteen year old girl at our Family Corps pajama party.

[T-Bone throwing a big hissy fit, raising voice several decibels]…surely you’re not suggesting I plagiarized Doctor Who for this thread…why…why…why, that’s preposterous!!!!!!! I distinctly remember the revelation as if it was August 5, 2007…Snow was not in the forecast. I had just guzzled a 12 pack of Fresca at a convenience store. Walking by the gas pumps – I was struck by the idea that I could teach myself time travel like it hasn’t been known since H.G. Wells. I laughed so hard at the befuddlement of it all – I snowed in my pants. I took that as a sign that I should start this thread.