T-Bone

Perhaps the confusion is over your definition of "one" and Deuteronomy 6:4's definition of "one." A weakness I see in the TWI-mindset is the tendency toward reductionism – where ideas, concepts, things about life, spiritual matters or even about God are reduced to formulas, rules, oversimplified statements, pat answers…The Ford couldn't explain Henry, but Henry could explain the Ford and vpw could explain God….vpw had an explanation for everything dontchaknow… Peter, Paul and Mary are one musical group. Personally, my favorite rock gods were Eric, Jack and Ginger, also known as one musical group, Cream. Oh yeah, it's obvious on this thread that "accuracy" is a relative term. TWI's accuracy is based on the "great intellectual standards" of a plagiarist, armed with a doctorate from a degree-granting mill, who made up his own definitions of biblical words when it suited him, claimed he took all the Greek classes Moody correspondence school offered [i've posted a letter on GSC from Moody that proves otherwise], referred to non-existent texts ["I wish you could see it in the original"], and said "you can't go beyond what you're taught."...Yes, yes - these traits testify to his great desire for "accuracy." Either TWI needs to re-calibrate their accuracy gauge or I need to de-sensitize my BS detector. I do agree with you there on Jesus is Lord! And that brings us to considering the practical consequence of Trinitarian versus Unitarian doctrine on God. If we each serve Him as Lord – what's the diff? Where it gets nasty on either side is when they use the difference to polarize folks – draw a line in the sand and ask "which side are you on?" That was a major thrust of TWI's JCING campaign. One more reason to think of them as the only group on earth rightly dividing the Word. That's why it mattered to TWI. It was their greatest tool for painting up every Trinitarian church as counterfeits! "Where else are you going to go? Who else serves the one true God?"

There's always the possibility of coming up with contradictory interpretations on any passage that may have multi-level meanings. And with that in mind I think it behooves any serious Bible student to be disciplined enough to exercise good hermeneutical skills – like observing the grammatical, contextual, historical, geographical, and cultural data pertinent to a particular passage. One weakness that I find with PFAL's difficult verse understood in light of the clear verses that you mentioned is that the difficult verse is a matter of opinion. Another weakness I see with the difficult verse/clear verses thinking is the assumption that the clear verses are addressing the same issue as the difficult verse. As a Trinitarian, I would like to point out concerning your reference to John 10:30 – that not all Trinitarians believe that Jesus, the Son of God and God the Father are one and the same person. That is however, the way vpw described Trinitarian doctrine in JCING. I have no difficulty with any verse that shows a disparity between Father and Son – because I don't see them as one and the same person. Matter of fact, it might be an interesting study for some folks to look at one of the Old Testament words for "one" – which I made reference to in my post # 173 [see below] on Son of Arthur's thread Honest Discussion of the Trinity:

And judging by your nice picture of USDA Choice, Another Dan - it's obvious the integrity of the Word is always at steak!

Yup – vpw has a field day with interpreting the Scriptures as he sees fit but forbids that of others. To me, that's intellectually dishonest – and hits me as nothing more than a ploy to make his viewpoint unassailable. Since he ignored the context of II Peter 1 which deals with the ORIGIN of Scripture and not its interpretation – I have to ask where does it say in Scripture that there is only one interpretation possible? Is it possible there are several levels of interpretation of a particular passage? Literal, figurative, spiritual, allegorical, etc. Consider also Old Testament passages re-interpreted by Jesus or Paul in the New Testament. And for that matter, there's plenty of passages – that have stymied the best of biblical scholars on exactly how something is to be taken - judging from the variety of commentaries I've read. And speaking honestly as a mere student of the Bible, the percentage of puzzling passages is even higher for me. Fortunately my salvation is not based on a thorough [or "throughly" ] accurate knowledge of the Bible but on a fear of the Lord and an experiential knowledge of the Holy One [i.e. Proverbs 9:10].

Wow - that's great! It was a big hit at the breakfast table - family says "thanks, George."

Well, I did warn you I may be whacked out on this…When I said “fitted” I was suggesting how God may custom fit each soul with a unique body…This has all been conjecture on my part – I was merely thinking out loud on how God would work things out. I believe the soul is immortal and that it was meant to inhabit a body of some kind – a mortal one in this life – an eternal one in the next. I’m thinking the soul [whatever that is] - requires a vessel…a physical means to interact with its environment. Yes, I’m suggesting heaven and hell will be literal, physical places – with dimensions and properties…The way I was using “eternal state” was in reference to one’s final destination – heaven or hell. From passages like Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 25:14-30; Luke 12: 42-48, I infer there are degrees of punishment and rewards. Now this is all conjecture on my part - variables of punishment or reward could be accomplished internally as well as externally of the recipient, perhaps even by a combination thereof…Take two residents of heaven – one is to receive more rewards than the other. It’s possible God could design a body for the one due more rewards with a greater sensitivity to enjoy the things of heaven than the other person. The perception and enjoyment would all be internally based – there would be no envy, no place for comparison. The same for two people in hell – to the one deserving greater punishment – a body more sensitive to the things of hell.

Well, alrighty then…this is my post # 90 on Speaking in Tongues, how come? thread by Oakspear http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=247761 - a great thread to read all the way through, by the way – they’re all great posts on it, in my opinion.

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's muster up some like-minded believing to be "heeled."

Great post and thread, IamSteve!!!!!! Not long after leaving, I realized that the problem of idolatry was rampant in TWI. I know I sounded like a raving lunatic when I wrote about this to our friends still in the Corps…It's weird – isn't it? How can a belief system that focused on God and the Bible morph into nothing more than a cherished facsimile? I've often thought of what happened with the bronze serpent God told Moses to make – he was to lift it up – people who wanted to be healed – were to look on it for healing [Numbers 21:6-9; and see the typological reference used by Jesus in John 3:14, 15]. Evidently, the people held onto this bronze serpent and it became an idol to be worshipped. For in II Kings 18:4 we find Hezekiah removed the high places, the idols used in the worship of Baal and Asherah and "…broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it…" There's an intriguing aspect to this legacy of the bronze serpent. God meant for it to be a means of healing to those plagued by the fiery serpents in Moses' day – and in New Testament times, served as a model for the salvation that comes by looking to the Cross. Yet, the bronze serpent became much more to the people of that time. Was it the power of association – seeing it as something still linked to God? Perhaps the means of the miracle became their dominant memory instead of the author of the miracle. Being on the outside, looking back – we all have different opinions of vpw, PFAL and the experience of TWI: What was good/bad, what was of God/the flesh, what was genuine/artificial. Speaking for myself, back then - I had a tendency to overlook anything that would tarnish my idol – so to me it was all of God. Initially TWI helped me come back to the Bible as a means to re-connect with God – but my continued involvement with TWI became a ball and chain that hampered my relationship with God.

Wow, that's not how I pictured Oakspear! For some reason I've always imagined him wearing a green hat.

Good point, Another Dan! I would agree with you there. When I wrote that I was thinking more along the lines of the enemies of God on a supernatural level – i.e. Satan and his demonic hosts. I don't think I should love them or bless them….However, I think you have in mind the flesh and blood enemies of God – like Saul, the persecutor of the church until Jesus knocked him off his high horse….Yup – love God's enemies – that would be a tough one – makes my little brouhaha at work look like an exciting game of tiddlywinks. ….And really, I've never been on the receiving end of religious persecution – though I do admit to harboring an arrogant and spiteful attitude toward outside Christians in my TWI daze – that might qualify me as a wimpy persecutor of sorts.

Happy birthday, Rumrunner!!!!! May your rum keep a runnin' for many more years!!!!! Love Tonto + T-Bone America's most notorious rumrunner, the 50 ft. Black Duck was powered by twin aircraft engines and was capable of speeds over 30 mph., fast enough to out-run the Coast Guard cutters of her day.

And thank you for keeping an eye on T-Bone

First, here's my extension fee now onto matters of lesser importance… Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U True. And He loves me anyway. Amazing grace! I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U Unsure. Is this a trick question? The text reads "love YOUR enemies" [Luke 6:27] – it doesn't say God's enemies. I believe I should love my enemies. This passage really hit me between the eyes after going through a personal crisis at work. Had a knock-down drag-out fight [of words only] with my supervisor over scheduling work operations – and the argument reverberated throughout the office. I was in such turmoil for a while. Another Christian who sided with my ideas suggested I pray for God's judgment on him – in other words, wishing him harm. It was like he handed me a gun and said "take him out." That Luke 6 passage jumped up and bit me! I couldn't do that – wish him harm. I started to pray for my supervisor, asking God to bless him and his family. Don't know if he ever noticed any blessings but I sure noticed a big change in my attitude at work and toward him. All my anger and frustration just melted away…Oh great, now all my enemies will read this and do something to get me pi$$ed off so I'll bless. Why that gets me so angry just thinking they'd pull something like that…I could just…just…pray for them ! There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U True. The book of Revelation is one of my favorite books. Not saying I understand it – but I get the general idea – God's got some neat stuff planned. This current universe is great in my book – so I can only imagine what's next. Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U True. Sick happens. Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U Unsure. I believe in the old earth – don't subscribe to the gap theory. I believe in the harmony of science and Scripture – both authored by God. However, exactly how these two fit together is a matter of interpretation. As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U True. I'm a big fan of time out. Five minutes might as well be five days to a kid that has no concept of time. God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U True. Besides overt acts of God [which are according to His prerogative] – I believe He works healing through medical professionals as well. There's much I don't understand…about life…sickness…suffering…death. None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U Unsure. My best guess from what I've gathered from Scripture [and I could be whacked out on this] is that the soul is meant to have a body. I do not believe in annihilation. In light of heaven and hell, I think each soul will indwell an appropriate eternal body designed to accommodate their eternal state. For those heaven bound, it will be a glorious body, like unto the Lord's – and perhaps tailor made so each can enjoy the particular level of responsibilities and rewards they deserve. For the hell bound, there will be a body fitted to endure hellfire – and experience punishment commensurate with their evil works…Not sure if any of this has answered your question. I'm especially adept at missing the mark, ya know - and have a longsuit in befuddlement . Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U True. Jesus said stumbling blocks will come – but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes [Matthew 18:7]. I think TWI had such a lackadaisical view of sin – minimized it to "broken fellowship." And they had such an arrogant I'm-going-to-heaven-so-whatever-I-do-here-that's-bad-doesn't-really-matter attitude. Did God mean for us to have such attitudes? There's some passages that lead me to think an awareness of our precarious spiritual status may be a good thing – maybe fostering some humility…and even driving us closer to God…I'm thinking of the difference between the prayers of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18. God be merciful to me a sinner! Requiring a narrative answer: Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name. I used to think "in the name of Jesus Christ" was like an official stamp or formula we were supposed to use in order to validate prayers. I've come to think of it now as being in harmony with Jesus Christ or as something representative of Him – as one acting on His behalf. Sometimes this idea crosses my mind as I'm drafting a post for Grease Spot or having a heart-to-heart talk with someone. Now I'm NOT saying what I'm doing at that moment is inspired of God, or that I'm assuming some kind of authority, or role-playing. It's more like I'm using it as some sort of criteria to keep myself in check: Is what I'm saying in harmony with the wishes of my Lord? What will my words/actions lead people to think about my Lord? Or the ol' standby What would Jesus do? Not saying I'm 100 % in harmony or that I always do the right thing – but it keeps me humble and mentally active. It instills a sense of responsibility. It leads to self-examination and maybe can turn into viewing the other person through the eyes of Jesus. It is becoming less self-centered and more Christ-centered.

Here's something that may be of interest from Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology by J. Dwight Pentecost, where he quotes extensively from an article by Schwarze, pages 559-561: In Matthew 25:41 the Lord said to the wicked, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." The word "prepared" literally is "having been prepared," suggesting that the lake of fire is already in existence and awaiting its occupants. It is the thesis of C.T. Schwarze [C.T. Schwarze, "The Bible and Science on the Everlasting Fire," Bibliotheca Sacra, 95:105-112, January, 1938], then of New York University, that such a place as a lake of fire is known in science today. He writes:"The word lake must connote a body of matter having liquid form. Therefore, if Scripture is truth, this eternal fire must be in liquid form… …the very simple proof of the portions of Scripture we have been discussing lies in the existence of the singular phenomena of the skies known as midget or white dwarf stars!...a midget star is one which, because of some things which have happened to it…should be roughly 5,000 or more times as big as it really is!...This enormous density…has a great deal to do with our subject…Most people know the sun, our nearest star is rather hot…there is a general agreement that the temperature at or near the center of stars is between 25 million and 30 million degrees Fahrenheit!...at such temperatures, much can happen, like the bursting of atoms, which helps to explain the phenomenon of the white dwarf… …It would cause the atoms to lose their electrons even though the attraction between nucleus and electrons is an octillion times the attraction of gravity. The separated parts could then be better packed in, particularly under great pressure…With the constant activity of X-rays, atom walls could not be reformed; therefore enormous densities, such as are found in the midgets, can be attained. Now, please note, at such high temperatures all matter would be in the form of gas…in a white dwarf the pressure is so great that gases become compressed to the consistency of a liquid although they may still respond to the characteristics of a gas…Although we cannot say that God will actually use these lakes of fire in fulfilling His Word, the answer to the skeptic is in the heavens where there are lakes of fire…" End of excerpts ~~ And from the Encyclopedia Britannica under White Dwarf Star any of a class of faint stars representing the endpoint of the evolution of intermediate- and low-mass stars. White dwarf stars, so called because of the white colour of the first few that were discovered, are characterized by a low luminosity, a mass on the order of that of the Sun, and a radius comparable to that of the Earth. Because of their large mass and small dimensions, such stars are dense and compact objects with average densities approaching 1,000,000 times that of water…

Now think for a moment - do you remember if you were standing next to the zucchini? I would have stood by the string beans.

That is very interesting thought, Seth! It makes me wonder about a lot of things. What would I change about the way I live and interact with people? I dunno…That’s a tough one for me to ferret out. I believe I’m basically a good person – but that’s just my opinion ….How much of what motivates me, what is important to me is intrinsic to my being and how much did I assimilate? Geez, I’m not a psyche or philosophy major and wouldn’t know where to begin. I will say this for any religion – because I fall prey to it myself many times – it seems like religious folks have more of a tendency to be hypocrites – which I see as one is not being true to their own stated beliefs….Great post, Seth!!!!!!

I’m glad Grease Spot is not a Christian website! It dawned on me one day that GSC is one of the ways for a recovering TWIt-for-brains like me to get back into enjoying the real world. As life goes on – I’m thinking more and more it’s unhealthy to keep my belief system in a vacuum. More than doctrinally, I think Grease Spot has had a HUGE impact on my worldview. Some things that continue to have a curious effect are ideas that occurred to me during Garth’s thread Talk about something that turns PFAL on its head. I realized how narrow minded my understanding of the Bible and Science is. And there’s more to it than that – I’m still sorting it out – will get back to ya later with more details …There’s a lot of food for thought on this thread. Back in my TWI daze it was very comfortable to live in a make-believe world where I had “all the answers.” It was also stifling, boring – and especially frustrating when my mental map of life had nothing to do with reality…I don’t know why I’m posting this stuff – not sure if I qualify to contribute on this thread…As life goes on – I’m finding out there’s more I don’t know… Great folks here at Grease Spot! Thanks a million for the perspective you all bring here! And I do apologize for the times I’ve been disrespectful on threads.

Maybe the old guy was confused and thought it was the Advanced Class. He asked for the laying on of hands – and wanted more than just healing – he believed for the raising of the dead! Two, put your junk in that box…

That CF & S incident hits me as so freakin' weird! Golly, it's almost like a "gateway mindset" – when someone loses a sense of decency, of what's inappropriate, blurs the lines of boundaries – is the next level a questioning of what's morally right? Does it throw the moral compass all off kilter? With a mindset like that - is it any wonder moral depravity is a real problem with some folks of TWI?

Doggonit, Another Dan - every time you post my picture all I think about is eating !!! I'll post something in the next day or so - I want to give your survey some thought...I know, I know, it's a spot survey - but I really like this stuff because it gets me to thinking about my beliefs - in ways that I haven't addressed them before...or simply haven't thought about what I do believe on something.....ok - what's the fee for getting an extension?

I fail to see a comparison. Saul – was a man chosen by God to institute the monarchy. A religious ceremony at Gilgal confirmed God's appointment of Saul as king, divine approval shown in the defeat of the Ammonites . Along with a parting exhortation to the people to obey God, Samuel called on the Lord to send thunder and rain as another confirming sign . The "screw up" of Saul was pointed out on three occasions by Samuel – Saul disobeyed the terms of his appointment – terms involving utter obedience to every command of God. His downfall was tragic because he was a visible representative of God's rulership over Israel…David recognized that the Lord Himself had made Saul king – and so left the judgment and removal of Saul in the Lord's hands: I Samuel 24:5-7 NIV 5 Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe. 6 He said to his men, "The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD's anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the LORD." 7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way. ~~ vpw – was a self-appointed "man of god for this day and time and hour." His ministry was "confirmed" by his yarn about the voice of god and snow on the gas pumps. You might want to read Word Wolf's thread The Way: Living in Wonderland – it's amazing the amount of contradictory details that can be found in a book authorized by vpw! The title of "doctor", by which he adamantly demanded to be addressed – was from a degree granting mill ! He plagiarized other men's work, palmed it off as stuff that God taught him - the Word like it hasn't been know for centuries – called it PFAL. His downfall was tragic - letting sin become the master of his life – he assumed the place of the "absent Christ," ruling over people as his sins ruled over him. If you're looking for comparisons – may I suggest looking at passages that deal with false prophets and false teachers – noting the criteria for spotting them and what your response should be.

Rather than an obsession – I see it as a process. People work out their hurts in so many ways – sorting things out, identifying critical issues, seeking support – a friend…being a support - a friend…Ever think about the effect this stuff had on people touched by his ministry [including the offshoots]? Are you going to play God and say what should and shouldn’t bother someone? How do you know what damage this stuff has done to someone’s faith? Rather than a cockroach I think vpw was more like a termite that laid eggs. Long after that termite died, those destructive doctrines live on - gnawing away at one’s mind. Being a firm believer in pest control, I will continue to speak out about the conscience-deadening effect many of vpw’s doctrines have – because that is part of being a responsible Christian. A healthy conscience is the clear skylight that let’s in God’s light – for the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I do not hate the man. I pity his poor soul. I think he may have been a good man at some point – but succumbed to the pleasures of sin. This is a sobering lesson to anyone who doesn’t think a moral awareness is that big a deal in the Christian walk – this is what happens when sin goes unchecked. It will dominate your life and taint every aspect of what you do.

Welcome class, today’s de-sensitivity training is by our own illustrious sexual predator, New Knoxville’s foremost expert on moral depravity. His expertise spans a wide variety of skills as I’m sure you’ve heard of his How I Plagiarized for Glory and Profit story – it often goes by the subtitle A Few Big Things I Stole to Make PFAL.

I guess you weren’t “spiritually heavy enough” to handle it when you were in residence . “Fortunately” he deemed our Corps including the Junior Corps “spiritual ready” in 85. [sorry you missed out <_< ]