T-Bone

Did you happen to notice my phrase "and when it's not on something clear cut [like a moral issue i.e. "Is adultery wrong?"] I feel it's always wise to suspect my own viewpoint may be lacking/skewed/erroneous – and to respect the other side for the valid points they present. Maybe Tom is right and I'm wrong. So? What's the big deal?" ? That's why I mentioned the speaking in tongues issue – or a recent one on this thread – the Trinity/Unitarian issue. I see valid points on both sides of the issues. If it's that big a deal to God – perhaps He should have been a lot clearer. Why do you feel you have to figure everything out? Why do you feel you have to know your viewpoint is correct? Those are some tough theological topics to explore – I'm not making light of theology. For me, the bigger issues of Bible study are the ones that have big practical consequences – that's why I brought up the moral issues in the Bible – I think that is a big part of why God had this stuff written. Jesus summed up the extent of the Bible written at the time by saying it revolved around loving God and neighbor. That covers a whole lotta moral ground! What's the correct viewpoint on the two great commandments?....And I think we're all being graded on this. Whoa….let me stop you right there…I said I was an expert on how PFAL screwed me up! That's your opinion of what it did to others….Let's see – at the time I took the class I was elated to hear about the magical law of believing – that I could alter reality by what I thought. At the time….it sounded like a good idea.

I don't know !!!!!!!!!!...And do you know what? I don't care!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't buy into PFAL's theory of the reason we have so many denominations is because of rampant private interpretations of the Bible…Wanna hear something else even wackier? I believe there's a godly design in the fact that we all don't think alike – God's idea of a checks & balances system. At one point during our discussion on Oakspear's thread Speaking in Tongues – after locking horns with Tom [who believes speaking in tongues is still available and practices it – as opposed to me – I believe it ceased at the early stage of the church] – I conceded that he and I were looking at the Bible from two different viewpoints – and when it's not on something clear cut [like a moral issue i.e. "Is adultery wrong?"] I feel it's always wise to suspect my own viewpoint may be lacking/skewed/erroneous – and to respect the other side for the valid points they present. Maybe Tom is right and I'm wrong. So? What's the big deal? Jeepers – I'm not leading a ministry or writing books cuz I'm an authority on nuttin'. I'll periodically throw out my standard disclaimers [I may be whacked out on this… In my opinion…I think… this may be off the wall…I could be wrong…just thinking out loud here] as a means of provoking folks to use greater scrutiny when reading my posts – I want their critical thinking activated – I want them to give my best shot their best shot. I don't profess to be a theologian, a philosopher, a psychologist, a genius, former bass player for the Cream, or the man in charge of the bathroom on the bus. I just claim to be the foremost authority on how PFAL screwed me up and what I did to fix it. Of course that's just my opinion of myself - I may be wrong .

You’re making this very difficult for yourself. You need to review the passage I quoted [John 14:15-27] – read it a few times – you don’t even have to do a big word study – just think about…what each sentence implies. There’s a reason why I put more Bible in that post than my own comments. There’s enough info in the passage to justify what I’ve said – there IS a very simple instruction in it. I’m not interested in going around in circles – but if your serious about wanting to understand and not wanting to argue – please read the passage – let it sit for awhile – think…..I’m a firm believer in the Holy Spirit as overseer of the written Word – and He speaks to every searching soul that reads it. We can talk more about it later…I’ll let you get to work.

Perhaps who to pray to is another point of distinction between Trinitarians and Unitarians. In my opinion, TWI made more of an issue out of it. To me, that's the influence of the PFAL-mindset that likes to draw up rigid rules, formulas, and principles for everything. While I do see passages that speak of prayer to the Father – I also find instances of prayer to "the Lord" – a title applied to Father and Son: Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV 1 The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." 2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! 3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. 4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. 6 He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries. A simple prayer calling on the name of the Lord: Psalm 116:1-19 NKJV 1 I love the LORD, because He has heard My voice and my supplications. 2 Because He has inclined His ear to me, Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live. 3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow. 4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!" 5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful. 6 The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me. 7 Return to your rest, O my soul, For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you. 8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD In the land of the living. 10 I believed, therefore I spoke, "I am greatly afflicted." 11 I said in my haste, "All men are liars." 12 What shall I render to the LORD For all His benefits toward me? 13 I will take up the cup of salvation, And call upon the name of the LORD. 14 I will pay my vows to the LORD Now in the presence of all His people. 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints. 16 O LORD, truly I am Your servant; I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant; You have loosed my bonds. 17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the LORD. 18 I will pay my vows to the LORD Now in the presence of all His people, 19 In the courts of the LORD's house, In the midst of you, O Jerusalem. Praise the LORD! Corinthians is addressed to all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ: I Corinthians 1:1-3 NKJV 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. II Corinthians has a noteworthy prayer by Paul to the Lord about a thorn in the flesh. The Lord's answer was that His own strength ["the power of Christ"] would empower Paul! II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. I do not find any Scripture forbidding prayer to the Son nor passages that require us to draw sharp distinctions in the "process of prayer" – for want of a better term – that sounds so cold and mechanical. I view prayer as basically talking to God. I also think this has bearing with the recent discussion of a personal walk with Jesus. I thought of a few verses: I John 1:3-7 NKJV 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. I Corinthians 1:9 NKJV God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. "Fellowship" in the above verses is koinonia [strong's # 2842] in the Greek text. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words by William Mounce, says of koinonia on page 247: …koinonia generally means "fellowship, communion, participation, sharing." …Paul uses koinonia to refer to the intimate fellowship shared between the believing community and Jesus Christ …John uses koinonia to refer to the Christian fellowship we have with one another . This fellowship is centered in and based on our common fellowship with the Father and his Son, Jesus . End of Excerpts The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out.

Have a good one, love Tonto & T-Bone

Mstar - the real world is full of funny things - is it not...Oh, Temple Lady - better crank up the printing press - I think there's going to be a run on Permits to Reincarnate !!!!!!!!!!

Sunesis, earlier Tonto said how much she appreciates what you bring to Grease Spot. I also wanted to add that you are one of our favorite posters – we've even talked about some of your posts off-line [i dunno – is that talking behind your back? ]. I've been enjoying Barnhouse's Revelation commentary that you recommended to me in a pm......the spiritual intensity and love for Christ in your posts makes you one of my favorite "commentaries" as well…good stuff!!!!!!!!!

[shrug] okay – I'll continue to play along – I wonder why you're making it so difficult – it's plainly stated in the gospels - in this passage below it kinda ties it all together…the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit working together… John 14: 15-27 NIV 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. The "personal walk with Jesus" has something to do with loving obedience to His teaching – don't yah think? Does any of the above passage answer some of your questions? Are you even interested in the type of relationship mentioned in the above passage?

Yes isn't it...Some things Jesus lets US figure out - all by ourselves...oh, the wonders of the human mind . I edited out the first part of my post # 128 from that thread - maybe I should have left it in - so here it is below...Even without consulting language experts some of us suspected it was gobbledygook! Interesting indeed !

No - language experts did ! The following quote is from Oakspear's thread Speaking in Tongues, how come? in Doctrinal, it's my post # 128:

How do you know all that with your speaking in tongues? It's possible your speaking in tongues is gobbledygook too.

Yup – and when you couple that line of thought along with TWI folks being afraid to consider an alternate viewpoint – you've got an effective way of insulating people from the real world…It was never about a relationship with the real Jesus – but about a relationship with an organization – did you conform? Did you fit it? …Another thing – looking at the passage where they more than likely got this idea: II Corinthians 11:3,4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. It looks to me like the passage is saying if someone PREACHES another Jesus - one different from that of the Bible, there is the possibility of receiving another spirit – one that is NOT the Holy Spirit given to those who accept the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Paul was talking about people PREACHING another Jesus. In other words, someone presenting an alternate view of the real Jesus. Paul is talking about a counterfeit doctrine – not a devil spirit impersonating Jesus. Would TWI's "Christ in you is the real you" doctrine be considered an alternate view of the real Jesus?...Just a thought. In order to spot a counterfeit, you've got to be familiar with what is genuine. Where else but in the gospels do we find the greatest amount of info on the real Jesus. And it is by following the teachings of Jesus that we gain an experiential knowledge of the real Jesus: John 7:16-18. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. ~~~ It all depends on if you rightly divide his post. Where would you put the comma? "Verily verily I say unto thee today, it's amazing how bizarre this stuff all seems." Or "Verily verily I say unto thee, today it's amazing how bizarre this stuff all seems." If you get that one little comma wrong – Waysider's whole post just falls to pieces.

TWI's "Christ in you" doctrine is NOT about a relationship with Jesus Christ – it's about recognizing the supposed "real you." John L**n wrote a couple of books developing that theme, Will the real you please stand up, and Will the real you please remain standing…This doctrine fostered an identity crisis with folks trying to find the "authentic self". It's a homogenizing process – so everyone would think alike, respond the same way - - it was really the "Ideal TWI follower in you." "How do you know you're not "communing" with a devil spirit?" – I don't think a devil spirit is going to encourage one to follow the moral dictates of Scripture, love people, worship God, etc.…And another thing – that soooooo reminds me of their fear tactics – whenever they want to manipulate people's thinking they make it like you'll get possessed if you go outside their boundaries. That particular trick was rampant around the aftermath of PoP – it was part of their crisis management.

Another Dan - that is one weird funny story...Your Uncle Edward can always tell folks he starred with Telly Savalas in Kojohn. Thanks for a great story!!!!!

I think TWI's strict adherence to dispensational thinking and focusing on the church epistles has a lot to do with it. They said the gospels weren't addressed to us...Where else in the Bible is a person going to look for getting a better understanding of what Jesus was about? Do you think that would have any influence on the reader's relationship with Him?

If it's any consolation to you, Oldies, my dear brother – since I left TWI, I don't think a lot has changed for me in the way I perceive God or relate to Him – perhaps my exploration of Trinitarian doctrine has only brought on more questions! I'm not setting myself up as the norm for how a Trinitarian prayers or worships – but after thinking about a few of your recent posts – I'm beginning to think maybe Trinitarians and Unitarians are not that much different on a practical level – as compared to a doctrinal level. What I'm about to share is an overall summary of my personal prayer and worship. I'm just speaking off the top of my head – it's not like I keep a running tally of who I'm addressing – or that I make a conscious effort to "change the channel" to communicate with the other person. But your posts have caused me to reflect a little deeper on my frame of mind in prayer and worship. I just go with the flow – what comes naturally. When I'm blown away by a gorgeous sunrise or sunset – my heart just explodes with praise to God – as the creator of the heavens and the earth – maybe even the classic picture of God with the long white beard seated on His throne is back there somewhere in my mind. When I pray for my family or something I'm concerned about – it's usually directed toward the God I just mentioned…Sometimes, if I'm very troubled – my heart races to my savior, my high priest who is well acquainted with human frailties. I would say my prayers are very much directed to Him in times like that. There's a great book I read awhile back, Jesus: Lord and Savior by F.F. Bruce. Bruce makes a few interesting points about the title "Lord": New Testament believers applied to Jesus the title reserved for the God of the Old Testament believers. And there appears to be some confusion in the New Testament - places where the reader is not sure if the "Lord" mentioned is in reference to God the Father or Jesus the Son – one can only wonder if it was that big a concern with the author.

That makes Him a truly unique person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. I shared this on another thread:

Now click the mouse three times and say, "There's no place like Grease Spot."

And I won't argue with that. But I will say when it comes to religious beliefs we all make concessions to some things that defy understanding. That comes with the territory of faith. Thinking about the God of the Bible can be an affront to the intellect. He inhabits eternity – He has no beginning and no end. No one made Him – nothing caused Him to be. This does not agree with my understanding of cause and effect...of space and time.... Sort of like analyzing time-travel movies. Take the funny scene in Back to the Future, for instance. Michael J. Fox fills in on guitar for Marvin Berry who hurt his hand. While Michael is playing Chuck Berry's tune Johnny B. Goode, Marvin Berry is on the phone calling his cousin Chuck Berry – telling him "I found that new sound you've been looking for." Some good points in these posts: I like to keep my options open…allow God to expand the walls of my theological box.

Don't think I'd trust anything by the author of JCING though…Seems that vpw liked to re-define things using a twisted logic. Take for instance a little word like "with" [Greek pros] in two PFAL studies on Who is the Word in John 1 - the Word was with [pros] God and the Word was God. vpw says pros means together with yet distinctly independent – he then reasons that the only way that's possible is in God's foreknowledge! So that makes God schizophrenic! It's like saying the thought of a man who is planning on having a child is together with yet distinctly independent of the man. vpw was great for skirting around logic. Like him saying God can only communicate with what He is which is spirit – and taught this in the Great Principle – God's Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind… I think Raf, WordWolf, Oakspear and a few others have discussed the break down of logic in that: God can only communicate with spirit – so He has to talk to your spirit. But somehow your spirit can talk to your mind. Maybe God is a little shy and doesn't like dealing directly with people, or else His universal cosmic translator is busted.

I agree !!!

It appears your opinion of Trinitarian doctrine is based on what vpw said about it. He's the one fabricating meaningless communication - according to your quote. vpw's equation makes no sense to me. Well…speaking of titles, names by which we reference someone, here's another tidbit of confusion in the Bible – look at the names applied to Jesus in Isaiah, one of the names for the son will be Eternal Father…oh my : Isaiah 9:6 NASB For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. …The way I find myself thinking – I must have received some great inspiration from my upbringing in the Roman Catholic Church. Two BIG items, anyway: an awareness of a moral code built into us by our Creator and the mystery and wonder of God Almighty. For me, PFAL gave people an illusion of solid answers – because I'm of the opinion there's much in the Bible, and in life that can't be figured out…maybe that says something about the author of it all. At least it makes for an exciting journey – with a seemingly inexhaustible choice of paths.

Great posts, Socks, Oakspear, WordWolf, Another Dan!!!!! I like your posts because it's thinking outside the PFAL box. And for that matter, I think an awareness of our own theological box is a good thing…I'm not interested in defending Trinitarian doctrine, nor consider myself a firm believer in all things Trinitarian. I am drawn to Trinitarian doctrine because it helps me organize the biblical data around a common theme – an apparent relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But I try to remember it's an impossible task - to cram a God that inhabits eternity into my little Trinitarian Box. I can imagine all sorts of things – but cannot even remotely understand a being that is infinitely powerful, sees past/present/future, and created the cosmos out of - - nothing…I think it was Augustine who likened theology's pursuit of God – to scooping a bucket of water from the ocean. We think what's in that bucket tells us all we need to know about the vast ocean. Some of what drove me to Trinitarian doctrine was a need to explore outside the confines of PFAL the central element of my faith – God, and more specifically, MY relationship with Him. For me, PFAL had reduced God to a semi-powerful being who painted Himself into a corner when He made the law of believing, put me out of touch with the one person who reveals God – His own son, Jesus Christ, and transformed the Holy Spirit into a car battery at my disposal.