T-Bone

Just for grins, I categorized the "benefits" into three groups – loosely based around the way I think they function in our belief system. Establishing a viewpoint has the biggest impact – to which I've devoted the most comments. Establishing a viewpoint This is about absorbing PFAL – or the demise of critical thinking. Enables you to separate truth from error This works out to be vpw asserting the superiority of his interpretation of the Bible over anyone else's. Of course it doesn't come across as his interpretation. By ignoring the context of II Peter 1 on the origin of Scripture, he argues the Bible is of no private interpretation – so it must interpret itself. By his inept use of interpretive keys, twisted logic and plagiarism forges a patchwork theology – his standard of truth. And with the assumption that this is how the Word interprets, itself students tend to think PFAL is the God-breathed textbook for the Bible. After PFAL 77 was filmed many assumed it would replace the original class. But I remember upper leadership saying "Paul didn't have to re-write Ephesians." What is sad, is the fact that PFAL grads have a hard time separating vpw's interpretation of the Bible from the Bible itself. Grads wear PFAL-colored glasses – a filter that only allows the wearer to see Scripture vpw's way. Maybe it should say "Enables you to separate things that differ from PFAL." Quality of thinking is only as good as the intellectual standards in place. PFAL students were expected to accept vpw's intellectual standards – which were very poor – and he liked to keep it that way - after all, "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Explains apparent Bible contradictions I think PFAL made a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe vpw's piece de resistance was the four crucified – which of course he plagiarized like a lot of other stuff. He makes such a big deal over this – as if adding two more crosses somehow increases the power of the only cross that matters – the cross of Christ! On this and other details [like the day Jesus died] he declared if you don't have the great accuracy of the Word – your whole Bible will just fall to pieces. vpw sets PFAL students on a journey to find the "holy grail" – the original Word of God – you'll know it when you see it because it will have a "mathematical exactness and scientific precision and fit like a hand in a glove." To which I say – what major themes of the Bible would be impacted if we found the original writings of the Old and New Testament? Would we find out that God wasn't in the original text? Would it drastically alter our prayer-life, worship, and service or how we deal with our fellowman? Bible contradictions can be a matter of viewpoint. In my opinion, vpw mishandled John 1:1, the timeline of creation, the Holy Spirit & Charismata, sin, faith/believing – just to name a few things. ~~ Navigating by Viewpoint Overcomes worry and fear Establishes and maintains a positive attitude Disciplines the mind by believing Teaches how to pray effectually What is your mental map of reality? How does life work? What map or viewpoint do you use on life's journey? It's different for everyone. Sometimes worry or fear can be a good thing – as in causing concern and activating a self-preservation process. A positive attitude is a good thing – but not to the exclusion of reality. The class promoted the law of believing as a way to alter our world. PFAL was a pre-packaged paradigm of how to look at the world and handle anything that came up in your life. Grads view it as the road-map for success. vpw said he seldom prayed in his understanding – speaking in tongues was praying effectually. Which makes me wonder – if God said He knows what we need even before we ask it of Him – then why pray at all? Perhaps God wants us engaging our minds in prayer so that we're conscious of a "partnership" with Him. He knows what we need. But do we know…trust…God to supply our need? ~~ The Prevailing Viewpoint Makes Life meaningful Promotes prosperity and health Develops more harmony in the home When I say, "prevailing," I mean it's prevailing over the PFAL grad – not prevailing over circumstances. Purpose in life is seen as what you do for TWI. Your spiritual status is governed by their criteria. The purpose of a PFAL grad is to make more PFAL grads. Prosperity, health and a harmonious home life revolve around TWI's definition of them. Fulfillment in life has nothing to do with your personal preferences, goals or desires.

So many books.....so little time. :(

Wow, Mark – that is a powerful production! Amen, Bliss on Jesus getting the glory for the deliverance. And another thing unlike the Athletes of the Spirit video that pitted the man-o-gawd against wrong seed, this production highlights the spiritual battle experienced within. I actually shuddered for a second at the climax of the production when Jesus was embattled with everything that sought to destroy her life. It reminded me of one of the darkest moments of my life. I was around 20 years old – in the middle of having a very bad acid trip – when a simple life-altering prayer came to my lips "Jesus Christ help me." Whenever I thought back on that day I would wonder what possessed me to say that [oh, the freedom to use "possessed" in a sentence ]. Seeing this production has me wondering now how much Christ tugs on our heartstrings.

Nothing...It will just make for a very short thread.

Gosh, thanks. But I fear if we continue in this trend we'll have to change the title of the thread to What do Larry and T-Bone Know? <_<

What a bunch of BS coming from someone who lacks basic comprehension of a poster saying “I’ll get back to that later.” ….And spare me the pseudo-intellectual reason “for discussion’s sake” when you exhibit the patience of a five year old and the attitude of a bar room brawler.

Yeah – what Another Spot said - I feel the same way about your posts, WordWolf. Your posts never go unnoticed by me. I’m still mulling over the stuff you posted near the start of the thread…And I agree with your take on a certain poster setting up traps. It hits me as a tactic to belittle folks and control the thread – seems to be happening a lot around here lately.

Perhaps the sour taste is folks discerning the "additives" to the Word of God. How much of what food processing plants put into stuff we consume even provides genuine nourishment and promotes health? Some ingredients are down right addicting – caffeine…sugar. The added ingredients are in reason # 2 – noted as the effect they produce. The TWI-mindset links PFAL with the Word of God – putting PFAL on par with Scripture. In TWI teachings, alongside Bible passages comments are added – sometimes words that sow subtle ideas - playing off this association of PFAL/Bible. Who else out there rightly divides the Word? Where are you going to go? Remember who taught you the Word. Judas walked out on Jesus – and it was night. If you leave God's ministry you're walking out into oblivion. These manipulative thoughts serve the purpose of entangling the follower, like a spider web...folks become bound [addicted] emotionally/intellectually to TWI...The adulteration process includes any erroneous doctrines [like the law of believing] as well as these manipulative tactics...Could God's "deliverance" come through [to whatever degree] in spite of all that? Sure! I imagine one could survive indefinitely on a diet of nothing but Twinkies and Coca Cola - not sure how healthy the person will be though.

Seeing how this discussion is over books – are you referring to the Colon Cleanse? That may be something an over zealous editor would like.

Please refer back to our "pure" soft vanilla ice cream and unprocessed/processed food discussion.

People stuck around for two reasons: 1. The genuine deliverance that God wrought despite the adulteration of the Word, and 2. The manipulative, coercive, and life-dominating principles of TWI. The biggest “spiritual hitchhikers” were the upper leadership of TWI. It’s like the Matrix movie. We were all like the humans in the pods hooked up to the matrix. The matrix generated a program [a make-believe world] into everyone’s head to help maintain certain functions - - so that in turn the matrix could suck the life out of them – providing power for the matrix.

You just thought it was pure soft vanilla ice cream. Was there anything else in it? Tonto's statement makes a lot of sense to me! It's like the difference between unprocessed and processed food...Like Paul talking about adulterating the Word of God: II Corinthians 4:2 NASB but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. The blessings come from the unadulterated truths of the Bible. And the same goes for the Spirit of God. Any junk that we add in the mix is unable to stop the power of - - - GOD !

Thanks guys!!!! I needed a good laugh after a rough day!!!!!!!!

Actually it shows the amount of BS some folks will generate to "prove" vpw’s law of believing worked.

For your penance you need to send me all those books. And toss in a few Robert Ludlum books, as well…Oh, and if you throw in anything by Arthur C. Clarke, Kurt Vonnegut or Stephen King I guarantee God will spit in your direction.

That’s just it - whenever reality proved inconsistent with his law of believing he could always pull out one of the many aces up his sleeve as the exception. They’re great for stringing folks along: The reason you didn’t receive was because it wasn’t available…the revelation changed because the circumstances changed…it was available upon a condition…it was available but fear kept someone from receiving it…etc.

Another Dan, there are a couple of books that address God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility that you might enjoy: What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God by Dave Hunt and Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler. Two good books with lots of food for thought. Hunt in What Love is This? [page 220] quotes from H.A. Ironside’s Full Assurance [pages 93, 94] and points out that passages on predestination make no reference to “either heaven or hell, but to Christlikeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in Scripture that God predestined one man to be saved and another to be lost.” And on page 233 Hunt makes an important distinction: “The blessings that God has eternally purposed to bestow upon the redeemed have nothing to do with how they are saved but follow their salvation.” Geisler’s Chosen but Free goes over the variations of Calvinism and gets more technical than Hunt. I found something interesting on page 45 that I thought was appropriate for this discussion on what does God know: “Let’s again illustrate the harmony of predetermination and free choice. Suppose you cannot watch your favorite sports event live on TV. So you videotape it. When you watch it later, the entire game and every play in it are absolutely determined and can never be changed. No matter how many times you rerun it, the final score, as well as every aspect of every play, will always be the same. Yet when the game happened, every event was freely chosen. No one was forced to play. Therefore, the same event was both determined and free at the same time. Someone may object that this is so only because the event has already occurred, and that before the game occurred it was not predetermined. In response we need only point out that if God is all-knowing [omniscient], then from the standpoint of His foreknowledge the game was predetermined. For He knew eternally exactly how it was going to turn out, even though we did not. Therefore, if God has infallible foreknowledge of the future, including our free acts, then everything that will happen in the future is predetermined, even our free acts. This does not mean these actions are not free; it simply means that God knew how we were going to use our freedom – and that He knew it for sure.” End of excerpts

Abigail, folks here would be surprised at how often Tonto has suggested I temper some of my posts for just that reason. Thinking what the newbie may be going through is becoming more of the prevailing process when I draft certain posts [which was expressed in my post # 155]. But I also think the whole Grease Spot experience is a reality check for visitors. I no longer hold to the soft-sell principles used in my TWI daze – where Dale Carnegie's How to win Friends and Manipulate People was the game plan. I tend to think the honest feedback that the genuine newbie experiences are very helpful in getting them to think.

It's a telltale sign someone still has a strong TWI-influence [either directly or via offshoot], when they barge in with a certain belligerent attitude. It has NOTHING to do with their viewpoint – it has everything to do with their attitude. I thought Tonto's choice of words "people who choose to be ignorant" was good – one of the dictionary definitions of "ignorant" is "lacking knowledge or awareness of the thing specified." I can understand if someone has never been touched by the overt acts of the predator. If they were impressed with the pristine Christian image of vpw presented [either directly by TWI or via offshoot], then they will hold his ministry in high regard. It hits me as odd though, whenever someone comes here and begins whittling away at folks who have firsthand experience of TWI's dark side – and threads become a let's-turn the tables-around-on-the-TWI-critics game. In my opinion, the person is either a plant [of TWI or offshoot] or they're in denial after hearing some shocking information. If they are a plant – they have chosen to attack those with experiential knowledge of TWI's dark side. To them I say, "Shame on you !!!!" If they are merely someone who likes vpw's teachings and fond memories of their sweet TWI experiences – that's okay – I would warn them though – that visiting Grease Spot will more than likely have a negative impact on their thoughts about TWI. That's their choice if they want to risk that. Grease Spot is not like TWI – where the only attitudes welcomed are the ones favorable to them. Nor is Grease Spot a church where everyone is encouraged to drop all their petty differences and have a group hug with Jesus. I like the atmosphere here because it gets people to think. I like the freedom here. I don't have to agree with someone, and don't have to like someone's belligerent attitude either – I can even say so out loud. I spent 12 years selling a pristine image of vpw to folks – and I'm certainly not interested in whitewashing that image now, because sales are down.

Scripturally, it appears sovereignty and foreknowledge is intertwined. What is the extent of God's power and knowledge? Unknown – from a human perspective. What may be inferred from prophecies though – is that God knows the end even before the beginning – and is aware of and prepared for all contingencies along the way. Looking at one of the first prophecies in the Bible, the winner of the spiritual war is already announced: Genesis 3:15 NKJV And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. A very simple prophecy in Genesis declares the outcome of a battle spanning the entire length of mankind's existence on earth, culminating in the book of Revelation: Revelation 20:7-15 NKJV 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Thinking of the point Ware made in his book The Diminished God of Open Theism [see my post # 21, concerning 15 years added to Hezekiah's life] the contingencies across this great a span of time [our entire human history] are mind-boggling – and yet a favorable outcome for the woman's seed is predicted in Genesis – fulfilled in one of the Bible's final prophecies, Revelation. If we are to accept the words of Revelation as true – then what does that imply about the extent of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge? For that matter, I think it's rather bold of God to tip His hand and have it all detailed out in Scripture ahead of time. Why wasn't Jesus killed as a child by Herod? Why didn't He starve to death in the wilderness? Why was an angry mob unsuccessful in taking Him by force? Why was He not drowned in a storm tossed boat at sea? Because it was not His time. God had chosen the time and the means for Christ to die: Matthew 26:1-25 NKJV 1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, 2 "You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified." 3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. 5 But they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people." 6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor." 10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her." 14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, "What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?" And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. 17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?" 18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."'" 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover. 20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." 22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?" 23 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it."

Just wondering...would you elaborate on that, please.

Having a discussion where some folks re-interpret what vpw actually wrote is like playing Battleship with someone who cheats. They keep moving their boats around.

Rainbows Girl, everyone has some interesting stuff inside! It's just a matter of getting what's in you – out! I like drafting stuff in a Word document offline. There's no pressure…Somehow a thought can come out different on paper – it's not the same as when I mull something over in my head or talk with someone…On paper, I get to fine tune the thought…get it out in the open where I can analyze it better. I'm still new at this – and marvel at the punch packed into the posts of old timers on Grease Spot…That offers hope – the more we do this the better we become at getting what's in us - out! [sorry for the digression folks, I'm just trying to bring a new person to twig ]

On page 12 of his book, when describing simple foreknowledge Erickson explains that God sees all points within time as if they were simultaneous with him. The events of history being like a parade. A person watching the parade at ground level, sees only the portion of it in front of him at that time. Whereas, God having a higher vantage point [outside of time] sees the entire parade simultaneously. Thus for an atemporal God, there is really no past, present, and future. All things simply are simultaneous. And speaking of time – Hugh Ross in The Extra-dimensionality of God – Beyond the Cosmos talks about the space-time theorem and defines time as a dimension along which cause and effect phenomena occur. The creation event includes our time dimension as well. Whoever caused the universe, then must have a least one more time dimension [or some attribute, capacity, super-dimension, or supra-dimension that encompasses all the properties of time]. The Creator's capacities must include at least two or more, time dimensions. No wonder He calls Himself the "I AM," the Alpha and the Omega. [page 23, 24] I imagine time as a sequence of events moving down a one-way street. We are stuck going in one direction. But if God could access another timeline or create another timeline – how would that relate to our single time dimension? Placed 90 degrees across our street – it would be like an intersection of time - enabling Him to operate however long He wanted to at that point in our time. A mere moment in time to us could be billions of hours, days, or years to Him. "How can God hear and respond to my prayers while millions or even billions of other people are praying at the same moment around the world?...In a timeline perpendicular to ours, God, for example, could divide up two billion hours into six billion twenty-minute segments…God can give individual undivided attention to any number of prayers simultaneously." [Beyond the Cosmos page 64, 65]