T-Bone

…And speaking of toxic TWI-residue, it's the vestiges of vpw's moral depravity lingering in the hearts of his defenders that corrupts sound judgment and sedates the conscience. Quite an insidious legacy vpw bequeathed to his fans – to treat the precious blood of Jesus as nothing more than a whitewash for unrepented sin. vpw had such a Gnostic flair for deeming the flesh of little consequence and a flagrant disregard for the moral demands of Scripture. I Peter 2: 16 NIV Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. I Corinthians 15: 33, 34 NIV 33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Yeah, Waysider & Rascal, TWI's toxic doctrines and twisted mindset are potent – even after folks leave it takes some effort to look inward and smoke out residual TWI-crud. Some folks do need to get over the compassion-less and heavy-handed approach with people, along with the tendency to minimize sin, deny the consequences of sin and ignore culpability…It's a telltale sign of TWI-poisoning when serious moral issues are downgraded or blame is shifted to the victim - in order to preserve the man of god persona of vpw. If you relate the unconscionable acts of vpw to an outsider [someone who is not enamored with vpw] your typical responses would be disgust, outrage, a call for justice. But when you tarnish someone's idol you jeopardize their belief system – their only defense is willful ignorance…and that's a real big thing to get over right there…pride…that you've been deceived by a cult leader

Welcome to GSC, FriendoFinnie! Excellent questions! I can't speak for others – but when it comes to my own involvement with TWI in my early 20s – I was raised in a good Christian home, attended Roman Catholic Church but didn't know squat about the Bible. I'd say the two biggest reasons for me joining a cult were the lack of critical thinking skills and the lack of a Bible knowledge base. There's a lot more to it than that when we talk about the emotional and social needs of a person – don't know if you can come up with a typical profile of a cult-candidate….psychology isn't my thing. Developing critical thinking skills takes time and experience , wasn't something promoted in my schooling or home – but after being burned by TWI – I've tried to make up for lost time in that regard. The book of Proverbs has so much wisdom on developing critical thinking – it's one of my favorite books. TWI encouraged us to ABSORB their teachings - NOT ANALYZE them. And we all assumed – not only that the teacher [vpw] was a genuine scholar with good intentions – but also that God Himself revealed to him the stuff he taught us…He was a drunken plagiarizing sexual predator with a doctor's title from a degree-granting mill. I've read in one of those cult books that cults are the unpaid bills of the church – I agree. At the time that I got involved with TWI the Roman Catholic Church that I went to wasn't big on teaching Bible stuff – just a lot of rituals, ceremonial pomp and a lot of the Mass was in Latin…Since leaving TWI – I have aggressively pursued systematic theology, studying biblical languages, biblical hermeneutics and reviewing Bible commentaries by reputable theologians [in other words – folks who are real scholars with high intellectual standards who honor biblical hermeneutics and use good critical thinking methods].

That would explain the fan behind the phone book. One could work up a sweat "speed-dialing" with a hand-crank phone.

Great posts Another Spot!!! I started a thread awhile back Decision-making and the will of God with some ideas from a book of the same name – the book gets into God's sovereign will and moral will. I think the terminology is good - and this subject is a BIG DEAL when it comes to the Christian walk!!!!!! I hope you don't mind me quoting my first post from that thread - I think it goes right along with your post here. You ought to check out that thread - I also quote some great stuff from Jonathan Edwards too. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=310314 The book is Decision Making & the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson, 1980, Multnomah Press. This kind of stuff I find very interesting because of the practical consequences.

I don't buy vpw's definition of discerning of spirits. Socks' and Kit's posts touch upon what I think discerning of spirits may be about. It is listed in I Corinthians 12:10 after prophecy - so I'm inclined to see it as having a relationship with prophecy – i.e. believers having the supernatural ability to determine if prophecy or a revelation came from the Holy Spirit or maybe an insightful analysis of something that was said. I Corinthians 14:29 "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge" comes to mind in that regard. Not sure about this - but perhaps Peter supernaturally knowing Ananias and Sapphira were lying [in Acts 5] and Paul discerning the purpose of Elymas the sorcerer [Acts 13] may be along this line as well...Also, if memory serves me right, in the Greek Text of I Corinthians 12:10 it is just "discerning spirits" - no "of" - which makes me wonder - is it in reference to the person with this ability? Similar to saying "kinds of tongues."

When talking about death in the Bible – it all depends on one's definition of "death." Some Bible scholars describe three types of death as a status of separation: Physical death = separation of the life force [soul] from the body Spiritual death = separation from God [i.e. what "died" in the Garden of Eden] Eternal death = separation from God forever

DMiller, sorry I have to take issue with you on a few cat details . We had a cat for 7 years [while in TWI – had to give her up to go in the Corps :( ]. Though she would occasionally lounge in my bass guitar case – she'd invariably hop into our luggage while we packed for some out of town TWI meeting – why she wanted to go to those boring meetings is beyond me ! Speaking of desks, we had an oak library desk – my favorite place to study the Bible – and our cat would plop right down on top of my Bible – great bookmark on windy days though…Okay – she wasn't crazy about cookies – I'll give you that – but she loved ice cream – the only way to keep her away from my ice cream was to put it in a ice cream cone. For some reason she was afraid of those. Tom, that's actually a post-it note from Tonto [Rocky is right], reminding me to put in for vacation days for our daughter's Special Olympics Swim Meet and the GSC BBQ…Now we come to the true confessions part of the show…Why is that note still on my computer about past events?...Basically I am a clutter-bug. I leave stuff sitting around forever. The real reason I use the ottoman as my desk is that it forces me to put up everything when I'm done <_< .

There I was relaxing, Grease Spotting, enjoying peanut butter cookies [with extra peanut butter smeared on top] and a diet coke when I came upon this thread…My desk is the ottoman in our sitting room, it's my favorite spot in our home. I had to run, get my camera and take a quick picture while fending off my dogs from gobbling up the rest of my cookies – that's grounds for the beatin'-of-the-week!...Geez, we take em for walks, give em treats, let em lounge on any piece of furniture in the house – all I ask is that they leave my cookies alone! I swear if I have to…oh…what's this thread about again? Oh yeah, right…here's a picture of my "desk".

The wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is just the way I see things. There's other kinds of payoff besides money for the hired hands. Like Rhino talking about the ego-boost from being in charge of something. You didn't have to be Corps or paid staff – just serving TWI's agenda…so many folks thrived on the recognition given to those signing up lots of people for PFAL, abundantly sharing [and letting others know how much they gave], hosting a class at their home, etc. …and many of us slaves believed the crap about how we were stacking up rewards in heaven for setting up chairs "with the love of god in the renewed mind in manifestation" – Wow! Talk about cheap labor – we were working for free! Unbeknown to many hired hands - the CEO was a wolf! Jesus warned us in Matthew 7 about wolves in sheep's clothing. What I infer from Jesus' words is that these spiritual wolves know how to dress up their words/actions to give the appearance they are sheep. These wolves are very crafty....smart!!!!!! Sheep are dumb - hate to admit it but I'm a dumb sheep... This whole wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is a very distasteful idea to think about - I was so thankful for Twinky sharing after I did at the BBQ - that was so uplifting...full of hope. She talked about actually seeing a shepherd working his flock and of the passage about the shepherd finding the one lost sheep. Her words resonated with me and offer hope for any Christian subjected to spiritual abuse.....yes - my shattered faith was healed by returning to the true shepherd - Jesus Christ...or should I say He rescued me!

Yup - that's why I specified "the MOST LOYAL hired hands" were the ones who looked the other way! They willfully ignored, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized, justified or minimized any unconscionable acts of the wolf. Yes – we equated TWI's agenda with doing the work of the Shepherd.

This thread reminded me of something I shared Sunday morning at the Texas BBQ: John 10:11-13 NIV 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I see the Way Corps program as a very twisted indoctrination process – the wolf groomed people to be hired hands serving TWI's agenda. The most loyal hired hands would look the other way when the wolf preyed upon the sheep – these hired hands cared nothing for the sheep…They only cared about what the wolf thought of them.

I read an interesting book a few years ago – so I’m fuzzy on some of the details…anyway…in The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness by Antonio Damasio, he talks about patients with severe brain trauma to the portion of the brain that handles emotions – and observed they found it extremely difficult to make decisions….So, from my Christian perspective – I tend to think we were designed to incorporate our feelings into the decision-making process – that’s opposite of what we were taught in TWI.

[sshhhhhhh.....I ain't got the heart to tell her she's from the cabbage patch]

Man, I must be sleeping at the switch – it took me awhile to get that one. E = DWBH

Speaking from personal experience – I have 3 points to share on the subject: realistic expectations, problem solving, and re-directing resources. This is what works for me – I'm not playing doctor or expert or making any recommendations – just sharing MY experience. Realistic expectations: Meds and cognitive therapy make it manageable. I set realistic expectations – meds don't fix the problem - but allows me to fix other problems by freeing up my processor from unnecessary tasks – i.e. trying to fix or get rid of depression. Meds don't make me feel happy – what makes me feel happy is a sense of accomplishment. When I'm not distracted by depression I'm able to focus on stuff I can fix – and in the process of handling those things I see progress and find I feel good about myself. Problem-solving: With proper meds and cognitive therapy it's like discovering the minimize/maximize buttons on a Windows program called "depression" – it's always running – I can't shut it down. But by use of cognitive therapy and meds – I'm able to determine how much attention and resources that particular Windows program will get. It's something I can't fix or delete – but it can overload my processor if I fixate on only trying to deal with that program. Decision-making, analyzing situations, etc. are affected by how efficient my processor is running. Without meds/cognitive therapy it's very burdensome to handle any other problem - it's like showing up at a service call, being handed a square peg and a round hole and someone says "make it fit." I will get bogged down all day trying to figure that out. But when I manage depression properly – I'm more efficient, resourceful and decisive on a service call. To fit the square peg in the round hole I may use a hole saw to make the hole bigger, a lathe to round off the square peg, do some research on finding an adapter, or stand back and ask "What's the priority on making them fit? Can I get some help on this? What's the worse that can happen if I can't make them fit? Who says they're supposed to fit?" Re-directing resources: I try to turn a liability into an asset. So when depression tempts me to fixate on inward problems and failures – I often turn it into a self-improvement task: Feeling inept handling a project at work becomes finding out what training and resources I need to tackle it properly…Feeling sorry for myself over certain problems [like depression] can be directed to empathize with another person dealing with the same problem and seeing what we can work out together to resolve, better manage or minimize things. 2 good books: Feeling Good by David Burns [gets into cognitive therapy and how meds work] and Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert [explains how meds works, the intricacies of mind/body medicine]. Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy Revised and Updated Molecules Of Emotion: The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine

Happiest of days to you!!!

We pulled the security tape on Fancy at the food bowl: the cat is startled - turns around and says one word "strange"

Wow - a great time with great folks! What a unique way to make new friends – join/leave a cult ..... Ex10 and hubby are super-gracious indeed!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!! The experiences of this weekend were precious at so many levels. (((((((Hugs to all )))))))

RichandCrispy, Twinky versus the challenging counterfeits.

Thank you, WordsandWorks - you've done a fantastic job of speaking in TWIngues with interpretation. ...uhm...well actually - I did the speaking in TWIngues and you provided the interpretation...We'd better re-read the Receiving the Wholly TWIt Today book - I think we're doing something wrong. no kidding - love your interpretation !!!!!!!!!! [edited to confuse the plagiarists]

WordsandWorks, I hope you’ll meet her again. Liz’s story just infuriates me – especially how she was treated by Corps and lcm! This has to be one of the most blatantly evil things I’ve ever heard! My God – what a bunch of hard-hearted…cruel…inhuman ba$tard$ !!!!!

Yo, Tony - you're killin' me - those are so funny!!! Did you write those? They're great. I love stuff like this....Okay, okay...let me add one Dear God, I hear humans are getting new bodies in heaven. Any chance of extending that option to dogs? I'd like to be a rottweiler. Weenie, the beloved Chihuahua

Using the preposition "for" expresses the goal or focus of believing – which in this case the focus is on a new car. I think that is a shift from the focus shown in the Bible. The following excerpts are from pages 410 to 413 of The New Bible Dictionary [editors J.D. Douglas, F.F. Bruce, R.V.G. Tasker, J.I. Packer, D.J. Wiseman] under FAITH: "…The characteristic construction for saving faith is that wherein the verb pisteuo is followed is followed by the preposition eis. Literally this means to believe 'into'. It denotes a faith which, so to speak, takes a man out of himself, and puts him into Christ [cf. the expression frequently used of Christians, being 'in Christ']…It denotes not simply a belief that carries an intellectual assent, but one wherein the believer cleaves to his Saviour with all his heart. The man who believes in this sense abides in Christ and Christ in him [John 15:4]. Faith is not accepting certain things as true, but trusting a Person, and that person Christ. Sometimes pisteuo is followed by epi, 'upon'. Faith has a firm basis. We see this construction in Acts 9:42, where the raising of Tabitha was known, 'many believed in the Lord'. The people had seen what Christ could do, and they rested their faith 'on' Him. Sometimes faith rests on the Father, as when Paul speaks of believing 'on him that raised up Jesus from the dead' [Romans 6:24]… …In the Fourth Gospel faith occupies a very prominent place, the verb pisteuo being found ninety-eight times…John…uses the verb pisteuo more often than any other writer of the New Testament, three times as often, in fact, as the first three Gospels put together. His characteristic construction is that with the preposition eis, 'to believe into', 'to believe on'. The important thing is the connection between the believer and the Christ. Accordingly, John speaks again and again of believing in Him or of believing 'in the name' of Christ [e.g. John 3:18]…" End of excerpts ~~ The shift in focus with TWI's "believing for something" is actually counterproductive – since it inadvertently severs a connection with the Christian's power source for signs, miracles, and wonders – God! Consequently, there is no relationship with God in a particular situation – since He is not brought into the picture. There has been the tendency to disguise the self-centeredness of it by appending God to the thought, as you put it – "believing God for something." This reduces God to a puppet. This image of God is really an idol forced to do our bidding. I don't see much difference between that and Webster's definition of "sorcery" – "the use of power gained from the assistance or control of evil spirits." By focusing on what is desired a believer loses all around – neither receiving the object of their desire nor strengthening their relationship with God.

Let's look a little further down the road…by this time the newcomer has learned to tap into the "law of believing"…in a little episode I like to refer to as Clash of the Titans Baldy: I'm believing for you to come to Twig tonight and teach something from the Blue Book. Shorty: I don't believe so.