T-Bone

That it didn't agree with his theology - that's why he wished we could "see it in the original".

Oak, I would say the concept is inferred, and will cite a few references suggested in systematic theologies: Physical death – Genesis 3:19; I Samuel 2:6; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; 12:7; Matthew 10:28; Luke 20:34-38; Romans 5: 12-14; I Corinthians 15:21; Hebrews 2:14, 15; James 2: 26. Spiritual death – Genesis 2:17 [noting "…in THE DAY that you eat from it you will surely die."]; 3:7, 8; Isaiah 59: 2; John 3: 3, 5-7; Ephesians 2:1, 2, 5; Eternal death – Matthew 25:41-46; John 11:26; Revelation 2:11; 14:9-11; 20: 6,14; 21:8 [also referred to as "the second death"].

Excellent analogy, Imagine – I think that's more in line with the critical thinking process we must do to move forward. I've shared this on Grease Spot before – read a commentary on Galatians by Kenneth Wuest, Galatians 1:11-19 NASB 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. 15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. Speculating on Paul going to "Arabia" [a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning "an arid, thus a sparsely populated place"] stating he didn't consult with anyone after his conversion – Wuest suggests Paul wanted to be alone with God: "…He needed time and isolation to think. The revelation of the Son of God had blasted away the foundations of the Pharisaic thought structure which he had been building with such consummate skill and zeal, and it had come tumbling down in ruins about his head. This revelation also furnished him with another foundation upon which to build a new theological structure. But the replacement of the ruined structure with a new one could not be the work of a day or a month. There in Arabia, isolated from all human contact, alone with God, the great apostle restudied his Old Testament scriptures, not now with the Pharisaic traditions vitiating his thinking, but, led by the Holy Spirit, with the central fact of the Cross of the Lord Jesus as the controlling factor in his meditations. Out of all this study emerged the Pauline system of doctrine as we have it presented in Romans…" [Wuest's Word Studies: Galatians in the Greek New Testament, page 52] Talk about seeing a light at the end of the tunnel! The above commentary was one of the first I purchased after leaving TWI in 86. In the middle of my having a crisis of faith, wondering if anything I learned of the Bible was worth a darn – I found solace in the idea of Paul having a similar experience. I think it's something experienced by every Christian who leaves TWI. At the time - this was like a "revelation" to me – I don't mean that literally – but it was at this point that I became aware of the need to develop critical thinking skills. That's when I dove head first into systematic theology – with the specific goal of analyzing my entire belief system – coupled with a lot of prayer! That's not to say I could then figure out everything and come up with the perfect doctrinal system. But in studying various theological systems and commentaries – I got a better idea of the lay of the land [never underestimate the value of another viewpoint – that's the great benefit of Grease Spot too], identifying things that I thought were essential to my faith, things that would have significant practical impact. Thinking about where I am thus far – I am as one awakened from a nightmare of an ego-trip. I realize there's SO MUCH of the Bible that I do not understand. But I feel I am closer to my Lord now than when I was with the Pharisees.

Great thread, great posts! Thanks for that link, Bliss – there's a lot of interesting stuff there – I'll have to read some more later. Reading this thread I kept thinking about something I came across in systematic theology… Some biblical scholars define three types of death: Physical death – separation of the soul from the body Spiritual death – separation from God Eternal death – separation from God forever In the Bible, death usually has a negative connotation – being disconnected – with reference to God it is alienation from Him. The Bible speaks of death as a punishment for sin - as seen in the first mention of it in Genesis 2:17. Some speculation here: I believe that refers to a spiritual death. I think physical death is a natural part of this present world – Adam and Eve observed death all around them - happening naturally in the plant and animal kingdom. However, even though the first humans were pristine beings, fresh from the factory so to speak – they needed something to maintain perfect health – I assume only humans were allowed to eat of the tree of life. After Adam and Eve sinned – they were denied access to the tree of life, Genesis 3:22-24…Which makes me wonder – what would life be like if we could do whatever we want but not reap any negative consequences? Certainly, we would feel like gods – but what would save us from our own self-destructive tendencies? Death has an antiseptic quality – a means of inhibiting the growth of sin – of putting an end to something terrible…and that gets me thinking about the death of my mother – mercifully ending the suffering from cancer that literally sucked up the quality of her life. Death is not always a bad thing, if we think about passages that speak of death to our old life and crucifying sinful desires – again the antiseptic thing…Passages like Ecclesiastes 12 and Luke 13:1-5 speak of our own mortality as cause to reflect on our relationship with God. Jesus personally neutralized the greatest weapons of our foe – His sacrificial death, resurrection, and role as high priest provide ample support against our mortal enemy, Hebrews 2:14-18 NASB 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. Through the commission of sin - death is earned, so to speak. Perhaps the devil is said to have the power of death only in that he tempts us to commit what induces death – sin. Romans 5:10-12 NASB 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- Romans 6:20-23 NASB 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. James 1:15 NASB Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. I believe God is sovereign – His rule extends over all things – even death Psalm 90:3-11 NASB 3 You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." 4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. 5 You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew. 6 In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades and withers away. 7 For we have been consumed by Your anger And by Your wrath we have been dismayed. 8 You have placed our iniquities before You, Our secret sins in the light of Your presence. 9 For all our days have declined in Your fury; We have finished our years like a sigh. 10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away. 11 Who understands the power of Your anger And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You? 12 So teach us to number our days, That we may present to You a heart of wisdom. 13 Do return, O LORD; how long will it be? Ezekiel 18:4 NASB Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die. Revelation 1: 17, 18 NASB 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." Revelation 21:1-4 NASB 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." Revelation 22:1-5 NASB 1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Happy birthday Pawtucket – love Tonto and T-Bone Some Wikipedia info on Pawtucket: Originally known as Pawtucket (Harbor Tug No. 7), the USS Pawtucket (YT-7), later reclassified USS Pawtucket (YTM-7) until disposition, was a district harbor tug serving in the United States Navy in the early 20th century, during the era of the First and Second World Wars. This was the first of two USN namesakes of the city of Pawtucket, Rhode Island and the Native American tribe bearing the same name. Pawtucket was ordered on 3 March 1897, laid down at Mare Island Navy Yard in California on 22 July 1898 and launched 17 November 1898. The 19th century designation "Harbor Tug No.7" was officially replaced with "YT-7" (meaning district harbor tug) on 17 July 1920. Pawtucket's entire career was spent on the Pacific coast, active in the 13th Naval District, the Puget Sound Navy Yard being her permanent base for more than thirty years. During World War II she was armed with a single 20mm. gun and served as a patrol craft and minesweeper in the Puget Sound area, with an increased complement of 16. Pawtucket was redesignated "YTM-7" on 15 May 1944. At the war's end, Pawtucket was declared surplus, placed out of service 13 December 1946, and transferred to the Maritime Commission. She was then sold to the Northeast Merchandising Service, which operated her briefly in Puget Sound before scrapping her in 1947.

I'm so thankful to be free from a life-sucking outfit…to now devote my time and energy to what matters most – my wife and kids! To radically modify something said in an old class, "What power we have in the freedom to think and choose, if we only knew it back then."

Yo Paw and everyone at the greasiest spot in town – have a wonderful Thanksgiving!!!!!!!!!!

Oh by the way Tom, Meow Mix IS NOT an alternate turkey stuffing.

I'm just curious…are you related to T.H.E. Cat ? I used to watch the show – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060030/plotsummary from the above is the plot summary: "Thomas Hewitt Edward Cat is a retired acrobat (also a retired thief) who has become a bodyguard. He works out of his friend's cafe, El Casa del Gato, where he uses his skills to protect his clients. Many of his adventures involve using his cat burglar's skills." I thought it was merely coincidental [you both having the same last name and all …uhm…Cat is a fairly common name ya know...] but when I found out T.H.E. Cat worked out of his friend's café – man oh man, the alarms started going off! ….Anywho…a hearty "howdy" backatcha! Can I offer a "new" old-timer a fresh cup of coffee? It has a little catnip in it – I call it cattuccino.

Here's Tom calling his bookie...

Oops - double post - darn you, Lex Luthor!

The Adventures of Uber Vic Faster than a Xerox Copier! More powerful than a keg of Drambui! Able to leap sheer logic at a single bound! "Look! Up in the pulpit!" "It's Bullinger!" "It's B.G. Leonard!" "It's Uber Vic!" Yes, it's Uber Vic… strange visitor from a mythical snowstorm, who pretends to have powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men! Uber Vic… who charges for his course the almighty dollar, bends Scripture in his bare hands… …and who, disguised as Doc Vic, mild-mannered theologian for a great manipulating outfit, fights a never-ending battle for truth - just his...and The International Way!

Hey, I'm the same way – love to go all over the map too – nothing wrong with that. I think it only becomes a real problem if you lose your moral compass .

We've gone from "What does God know?" to "What does man know?" - - now a variation on the latter – "What did vp know?" Sometimes I refer to him as the New Knoxville Gnostic, because of a few similarities I've noticed in the philosophy of vp and Gnosticism. In Gnosticism, knowledge is THE key to salvation [rather than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ] – a "superior knowledge" that only an elite class of folks could attain. This "superior knowledge" is revered as well as the folks who possess it. This "superior knowledge" is considered spiritual in nature and the adherents view the material world as inferior. The practical consequences of this Gnostic mindset is either asceticism or a tendency to act as if the flesh is of little or no consequence. Colossians 2 and I John may have been addressing some early form of Gnosticism.

I think of God as an artist and the entire creation as His interactive canvas. As a Christian, my perception of things is "filtered" by my faith. As one of "the details" on this canvas, I am trying to survey as much of this canvas as possible with the intent of catching a glimpse of the artist - that being a better understanding of Him. Another detail on the canvas is the Bible. My understanding of it has changed quite a bit over the years [especially since leaving TWI]. I no longer think it gives a thorough explanation of how things came to be, nor why things are the way they are. I believe the Bible gives us more info about an ultimate purpose and how we should respond to experiences here and now…In my opinion God's intent with the Scriptures was not to satisfy our intellectual curiosity – but as a means of connecting with Him. Dot's questions in bold blue: If God was here forever – where did he come from? Haven't the foggiest idea a) So, he was alone for umpteen gazillion years then decided to invent the earth. (?) As a Trinitarian, I refuse to address the assumption of God being alone on the grounds that it may incriminate me. b) What was he doing before earth? Dunno c) Wasn't he bored? What does an infinite being do for entertainment? If he knew Lucifer was going to "blow it" why did he create him? Dunno…I can't relate to this – but do have an idea when it comes to us – see my answer about Adam and Eve. If God is a loving God why did he allow sickness and death? Dunno…maybe they were always a part of the original creation – see my answers below. a) If sickness comes from the devil – why doesn't God protect us? I tend to think that sickness [and ultimately death] are the natural course of things in this life. b) Is sickness from sin? If so, when we confess our sin, and ask for forgiveness, why are people still sick? In a manner of speaking, yes. This is my idea of what transpired in Genesis: I think Adam and Eve were perfectly healthy – as pristine beings right out of the "factory." But they needed something to maintain perfect health [the tree of life]. I think they saw sickness and death around them [occurring naturally in the plant and animal kingdom – maybe these were some of the issues God had them address in their maintenance of the garden - i.e. being responsible to keep it healthy, thriving, and disease-free ] – for only they were privileged to eat of the tree of life. After the Fall, with humans no longer having access to the tree of life - coupled with the eventual changes in diet and the environment - both noted particularly after the flood of Noah's time - may account for the increase in health problems and the drastic reduction in life span. Concerning the environmental change - I'm thinking about the collapse of the water canopy in the upper atmosphere of the earth [referred to as the windows of heaven opening up for Noah's flood] - we lost the filter to harmful UV rays. If he KNEW Adam and Eve were going to muck it up, then why not bypass them, and invent "Jill and John" ? Maybe it was part of God's plan….I sometimes wonder – that if we never experienced an imperfect world how little we would appreciate a perfect one…Maybe it even serves to satisfy some deep curiosity of humans – as perhaps a parent allowing a child to make a wrong choice – so the experience will deepen them. I hope in the next life – I will remember all the wrong choices I made and bad things I did – just so I'll never wonder about pursuing options like that again - - and will probably really appreciate what my Savior has done for me.

Wow!!!! Very well said, Waysider !!!!

Nero, great thread…and don't think I've said this before so welcome to Grease Spot. I've been re-reading the first part of this thread several times – there's some great stuff to think about! For me the thing that stands out most is a mindset that suppresses feelings prevents folks from fully processing their experiences. Thinking of emotions in the Bible, Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed their sick [Matthew 14: 14]. Of course, there's the mention of Jesus looking at the Pharisees in anger for their hardness of hearts toward the man with the withered hand. And maybe we could consider His healing the man's withered hand as shock therapy for their withered hearts – but if you wonder how the Pharisees felt after Jesus healed him – they only became more obstinate and unresponsive to the truth [Mark 3:1-6]. And when we read of Jesus cleansing the temple, making a scourge of cords, driving out those selling sheep and oxen, dumping out coins of the moneychangers and overturning tables – it doesn't say what He was feeling – but I bet it wasn't happy thoughts [John 2:17 refers to the zeal that consumed Him]. Emotions are part of our thinking process – how we understand/interpret an experience and often provide an impetus to take action. In II Corinthians 7:11 we find true repentance cannot occur apart from the sinner understanding what they did was wrong and feeling genuine sorrow over sin. By encouraging the suppression of emotions, manipulators have an effective tool for altering the perception of experiences and motivation can be re-directed or diffused. People become puppets on strings, as manipulators deem which emotions are valid [which emotions are okay to act upon] or reduced to being human camcorders, taking in experiences like an emotionless piece of recording equipment. If emotional capacity were like a muscle – for a typical TWI follower it was atrophied. If experiences are not fully processed by the individual – issues remain unresolved in the mind. Take for example a matter of forgiveness as you mentioned in your post. The point of forgiveness is reconciliation. You want person A and person B to resolve their differences and get back together. Person A is NOT genuinely sorry as indicated by their attitudes and actions. Person B thinks it's the Christian thing to forgive them anyway – and says so. Nevertheless, the forgiveness on the part of person B may be genuine but with the unrepentant attitude of person A – the feeling of forgiveness is frustrated, any signs of reconciliation are just going through the motions – issues are left unresolved with both persons. Excellent posts, Rascal and Eyes Open!!!!!

Thanks, Another Spot! And thanks to Word Wolf for starting this thread as well as everyone else’s contributions….I’m going to take some time and review this thread, especially your latter posts – they’re chock full of goodies to think about, very practical, and I think they honor God [because I believe He designed us to USE our brains that way]! In one sense, this type of decision-making process can be burdensome…in that we feel the awesome weight of responsibility…that it’s up to US to decide certain things. And we strain and work hard to do our best thinking, to weigh the options and consider the ramifications of each choice. But then there comes with that a sense of freedom, control, success, creativity, flexibility. A goofy analogy but it’s the best I can come up with right now: The traditional way of making decisions by some is a paint-by-numbers approach; expect God to tell you what colors to use in certain areas of the canvas. The alternate way – is God handing you a canvas and says “you decide what colors to use and where to use them.”

Sure do!....Except I'm keeping it teaspoon size. While working the kitchen in-residence I grabbed a BIG soup spoon or something piggish like that and shoved a huge scoop of peanut butter in my mouth – and it was that sort of dry, clumpy, healthy peanut butter brand like Deaf Smith…anyway, nearly choked – couldn't breathe!!!!!!! Thought I was gonna die…....not a bad way to go though - the last taste of this life...I could just see my tombstone: Awaiting the Return… Oh Deaf, where is thy sting That sounds like something Tonto told me her mother used to do. The Twinkie options on your link looked great - except for the one with the hot dog...That doesn't go - it's like Ham Soda Pop.

Yeah, you're right, Belle - but that's way too much sweet for my taste buds - my tongue will freak! I prefer salty stuff - which brings me to Chatty Kathy's post: My all time favorite snack is dipping a pretzel stick in peanut butter. mmmmmmmmmmmm yum.....Hey, I haven't tried peanut butter on Twinkies or Moon Pies......be back later....have to do some research.

Yup - it was also another way for TWI leadership to exert control over folks. Manipulating people by fear – "don't trust that person, they're possessed…don't doubt/disobey our teachings, and for goodness sakes don't walk away from this ministry - - or YOU risk getting possessed – at the minimum, your life will be ruined by heavy devil spirit infiltration." For some reason, this scene in The Jungle Book comes to mind: Ka the snake, looking hypnotically into Mowgli's eyes says, "Trust in me."

Yup - they're cream filled and go great with Yoo Hoo chocolate drink...Moon Pies are good too - but go better with milk.

Even as we speak, factory employees are working overtime in preparation for next year's GSC Texas BBQ Okay...that's for Eyes Open, Tom Strange, Chatty Kathy...and here's a Twinkie for Twinky...tee hee

Eyes Open, good to mention that here. PFAL hosts the most virulent strain of vpw-crud…which is parasitic in nature - leeching off the work of others [plagiarism], adulterating Scripture [twisting Bible passages to justify moral depravity, promote unsound doctrines and manipulate people], ultimately ensnaring folks in a life-sucking organization……That’s not enlightenment - it’s entanglement.

Another Spot – tremendous posts – very thoughtful and thought-provoking…keep it up. I’m enjoying this thread - an interesting progression…from “What does God know?” to “What do we know?” ….Great stuff! This is the kind of thing that helps reorient the wayward Christian in decision-making – especially one coming out of a cult that prides themselves on having God on their side. I’m of the opinion a humble Christian would desire to be on God’s side…I remember vpw saying “We don’t know it all but we know Him who knows it all.” Yeah, right…that’s what he said – but he sure acted like he knew it all!