T-Bone

Twinky, that's a lot of great stuff – and very important to our discussion. You've got me thinking about a lot of things – how children were raised in the Judaic culture…Perhaps the parents modeled decision-making and the will of God around Scripture. The early chapters of Proverbs sound like a father giving his son practical advice. Something I believe we often fall short of at opportune times is to explain our thought process on a decision to our kids. What better way is there for them to start learning the ins and outs of making decisions then by having mom and dad break down the whole complicated process, the whys and wherefores. And getting back to your point of godly parents raising exceptional kids - makes me think of your earlier post speaking about a multitude of counselors…I thought of Psalm 119:24 NIV Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors. Perhaps this passage alludes to the use of Scripture in the thinking process…And like I mentioned earlier in this thread – that God leading us is predominantly moral guidance – is the same for Scripture. Proverbs is rich with principles for developing good business savvy – but God's wisdom also has a distinct moral aspect to it…for in the same book of Proverbs we read of God delighting in honest weights and measures in business transactions.

Praying for you and Dad.

Great story Jeff, thanks for posting that! Now I understand why my Shetland pony reference hit you funny. Sounds like that little guy had it in for ya! Going for your knee, huh…musta been a dwarf mobster. …Speaking of horse bites - I love animals – but as a city boy don’t know much. Years ago, a neighbor asked me to feed his horses while he was gone. I’m in the corral – this one horse is walking over to me – I’m thinking I could pet him when he gets close…but surprise attack – he bit my upper arm – it hurt like a sonofagun!

Bliss – the humble attitude expressed in your posts is exemplary! IMHO this whole decision-making process works best as we recognize biblical values [the things that would meet God's approval and give Him glory]. That is something that's mission-critical! Our attitude is what's at issue – not the critical and creative functions of our thinking ability. The honesty of your post got me thinking of how we may harbor a fear of failure at times. Thinking about God putting Adam in charge of things I have some speculation – how much autonomy did he have?…for instance – Adam assigns names to God's creatures – how long did he deliberate on each species? Did he change his mind on naming some after reconsidering certain details? Was there trial and error involved as he worked in the Garden, developing maintenance programs for Paradise? Did he research what worked best for certain issues? Did he revise some procedures and routines? Did he make checklists?.... I'm trying to be more resilient in failure. It's not the end of the world. And I'm trying to learn more from the experience. I have a few scars that remind me to be more careful with tools. :) Another Dan – Yup…cooperation…that's a great way to put it! I especially like your mention of an active connection with God…My view of the Christian life has changed considerably since leaving TWI. I no longer view the Bible as some kind of magic lamp activated by believing. I see the Bible more as a means of activating the mind and connecting with God. Yes – God is working in His children – but how much do His children respond by working in Him? How does one learn His principles? Is it merely academic – or more experientially based? How do we mature in thought to choose the best course of action? I used to shy away from making decisions – lacking confidence in my thinking ability. Now I enjoy the freedom to sort through options, details and preferences. In TWI I had this idea the Bible was all about showing me how to listen for that still small voice, to walk by revelation…But where does it say in the Bible we're to be alert to first thought? Where does it say we should look for signs or feel for promptings? Seems to me all that would tend to make one impulsive, prone to rash decisions. IMHO the Bible does have a lot to say about things like cultivating good attitudes, having patience, giving thought to our ways, making good moral choices, setting priorities in order – things that affect our decision-making process. Twinky – I agree – consulting others is a great resource - the value of another viewpoint! The older I get – the more aware I become of my own shortcomings – and have grown to appreciate the insight gained from others. Maybe it's a combination of dropping my pride and trying to be more efficient. And there's a lot of wisdom and respect behind another point you brought up – conferring with those who are touched by a decision – allowing them to participate in the process. That's something to think about in raising kids [or any training situation for that matter]. Consider how children mature as they keep pace with new challenges and responsibilities, as they get to make more and more decisions for themselves. How they will learn the importance of setting priorities, the power of focus, understand the ramifications of their decisions/actions. How else does confidence grow and skills become fine tuned? What if we're getting more out of the whole process than just coming to a decision on something? What about all the work, thought and prayer it takes to get there? Just thinking out loud here…Imagine decision-making like mapping out a journey. Is there a difference between having someone drive me to a destination and me driving myself there? Yes. The driver could have taken me there ten times – but if you ask me how to get there – I wouldn't know – I never pay attention when I'm a passenger…But let me drive there a time or two – and I'll note landmarks, find short cuts, observe street names, explore alternate routes, etc. Being the driver can be more stressful at times – but the payoff is feeling like you're more in control and an awareness of where you are on the journey.

I've been thinking about two passages in Proverbs that IMHO stress a critical point in a Christian's decision-making process. Proverbs 16:9 NIV In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. Commenting on Proverbs 16:9, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank Gaebelein General Editor, Volume 5, page 1005: "The Lord sovereignly determines the outworking of our plans. The Bible in general teaches that only those plans that are approved by him will succeed…The point is the contrast between what we actually plan and what actually happens – God determines that. As Paul later said, God is able to do abundantly more than we ask or think [Ephesians 3:20]." A similar idea is expressed in Proverbs 19: Proverbs 19:21 NIV Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails. Page 1036 of the The Expositor's Bible Commentary says: "The success of our plans depends on the will of God. In the form of a contrast, the proverb teaches that only those plans that God approves will succeed…" What I infer from the above passages is that WE are responsible for making plans. As Christians, we may sincerely want or even claim God's direct guidance in formulating our plans – but the basic idea I see in these verses is that plans originate from man's heart. And perhaps the sentiment in Proverbs is a wise decision-maker develops plans with a humble heart, acknowledging the sovereignty of God.

There is a big assumption hidden in the phrase "Done right." It implies a standard…some criteria that the one speaking a personal prophecy has to meet to qualify as authentically from God…It also seems like the validity of the prophecy is solely based on the perception of the recipient – is it helpful, does it have resonance, etc… Whoever is judging the validity of it is using some set of standards to do so. And as Word Wolf pointed out – there is no scriptural support for personal prophesy…doctrinal support relies heavily on speculation, assumptions, personal opinion...much of their reasoning hits me as a wishful thinking. Something about this discussion reminds me of all the technical details vpw blabs about in the Advanced Class – the ultimate "how-to" class on operating the manifestations. In my humble observation of miraculous instances in the Bible: God looms large in the forefront and stuff happens regardless of the know-how of all participants.

His Guns, Germs and Steel is a fascinating book and I enjoyed the three part TV series of his book.

_. Exclamation Point asleep \. Exclamation Point on break (. (. (. (. Yoga Class for Exclamation Points \./ Schizophrenic Exclamation Point i A depressed Exclamation Point ,/ Exclamation Point used in Clockwork Orange =: How Exclamation Points reproduce .X A former Exclamation Point [aka Ex-Exclamation Point] ? An Exclamation Point filled with self-doubt C. An Exclamation point in need of Viagra

Don't Worry Be Happy, this is one amazing thread! An interesting juxtaposition of two paths: 1. The ramifications of holding/developing certain erroneous doctrines of TWI while still harboring certain aspects of the TWI mindset [as evidenced in the CES/STFI issues] – really a continuance of the same old treacherous path that was mapped out by vic [same bu11$h!t, different name]. 2. The healing, insight, wisdom, understanding and compassion that is found on the trail of true humility – obviously the path that YOU have chosen DWBH – qualities that abound in the great folks at Grease Spot – that's why I come here! It's an environment conducive to mending…strengthening…empowering! A humble person realizes where they made mistakes and with resolve takes appropriate action to ensure it won't happen again. I've said this before about offshoots – former TWI-leaders have no business starting their own thing soon after leaving that insanity/corruption. I don't know how long a time span to specify – but IMHO their logic is flawed if they think they're qualified to lead folks to anything other than confusion and heartache.

Have a good one!

In keeping with the spirit of this thread and in honor of a certain plagiaristic dynasty – it's okay with me if you want to claim you had the original revelation for the parody on the Athletes of the Spirit video.

The Evan – love that YouTube clip – sheer genius!!!!!!!!! But Now I see, sorry you feel sick…but ya know - some theaters are sensitive to the feelings of their audience:

Wow – amazing…and a little disturbing…Yeah – I can see that, Water Buffalo…in most sci-fi movies robots commit great acts of violins. [edited for a PG-13 rating]

Naw Rhino, you're way off there – we're talking about The Twilight Zone - not The Erogenous Zone.

Linda Lawson

Ava Gardner

Birthday hugs and warm wishes from Tonto & T-Bone.

TWI leadership are the key players – heck, it’s their game – played by their rules! Whether they appealed to one person’s base motives or another person’s altruistic tendencies, TWI leadership always represented the organization as the facilitator –with their priorities, agenda, principles, teachings, practices, etc. being the means to satisfy your desire.

Great thread, Polar Bear! Yup – I bought the farm…Soon after leaving TWI I remember reading in some booklet on cults what the church could learn from cult followers – commitment. Well, maybe so but at the time I read that I was so angry and cynical over letting some counterfeit church gobble up 12 years of my life as I blindly bought into their priorities and agenda. I would revise that booklet to add commitment without wisdom is foolish. I think of commitment as making a personal investment. I'm willing to invest a certain amount of time, energy and resources for something I believe in…even making some sacrifices when necessary – but call me selfish if you want to – I expect something in return. And it doesn't have to be anything material – it can be something as simple as getting a good feeling from helping someone…As you said – I see great joy in life again using wisdom in commitments. When I bought the farm – I signed over a blank check [my LIFE] to TWI – I bought into a lopsided deal. TWI being a parasite, sucked the life out of me - - and in return would stroke my ego ["…you're so spiritual... you've really grown... you must really love God... what a sharp leader - we want you to run a twig/class/branch…"] and tell me I'd have oodles of rewards in heaven for supporting God's ministry.

Speaking of email…I think spam should be re-labeled as something I find very distasteful – asparagus! …and another thing – why do I have to go to the Start button to stop my computer? Doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't there be a Stop the Stopping button for starting the PC? Oh, I know - some folks want to have access to that Restart feature – yeah, like that's gonna make a difference. Let's call a spade a spade – re-label Restart to reflect the PC accepting culpability – Alright, so I screwed up – now you can sit there all day long and whine about it or give me a reboot where the sun don't shine and start from scratch.

Have a good one!

Sounds very similar to my experience. In the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch, it was like being in a big highway wreck – and slowly realizing that no one is going to help me. Deciding to leave TWI in 86 was like using the Jaws of Life to cut my way out of that mess. For a long time after I left I had to take my belief system back to square one, re-evaluating the most basic things – even recalling what I thought about God and life as a child.

Happy Birthday Ol' Smokey, our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Yup – that is an even better analogy…In my opinion, the healing process for anyone involves taking a step back to take in as much of a panoramic view of our own viewpoint – to analyze our own belief system. I don't know if that makes any sense – I'm trying to describe how one would pick apart a thought process on any given topic – to ask Why do I think that way? Where did I get that idea? Do I still consider that a valid source? Does it have relevance to the way I feel now?, etc. Like an atrophied muscle, our thinking process will heal and strengthen with use…And maybe with that comes a unique feeling to anyone escaping the clutches of a mind-numbing group - - a newfound confidence in the ability to THINK!

Have a good one !