T-Bone

Yeah I’m with you on depicting true leadership…I’m trying to cut down on my typical post length - and that may mean I don’t define all terms. Good leadership principles are important in any context - to provide direction, take risks, challenge the status quo, inspire others…my previous posts are from another angle - maybe runs parallel to the absent Christ thread - the frustration I felt in TWI. It was an inarticulate frustration - that took me many years after leaving TWI to figure out. I’m of the opinion whatever your physical role might be you can lead by example. I think of verses like I Thessalonians 1:6 you became followers of us and of the Lord…I Peter 5 reminds those who selflessly shepherd God’s flock will receive recognition from the Chief Shepherd. The leadership training program of Jesus Christ is learning to follow His example of service to others, in compassion, sacrifice, etc…If I could do a quantum leap back to my time in TWI with how I feel now - I’d probably get kicked out because I’d challenge the status quo of a cult’s groupthink, and then I’d flex more” leadership muscle “ by directing others to flee TWI and take risks in self-determination.

Charity, great post, and great link! How the way corps program views plasticity = turn up the heat to make one easily shaped or molded. The goal of way corps program is to instill a cult mindset rather than a growth mindset. Figuratively speaking, you get the living $hit kicked out of you…people suffer intellectual, emotional and for some physical and sexual abuse to within an inch of the life of one’s authentic self. Human beings are resilient – even under the worst conditions…out of necessity the adaptive self comes to the 'rescue' so you can survive in such a harsh and artificial environment. So, you stuck it out in the way corps program and hopefully (I now speak as a dishonest to god cult-leader ) you always check with upper leadership before making any major decisions. In TWI good followers make the best leaders.

I don’t believe TWI’s “vetting process” was even close to standard practices found in such fields as in education, politics, business - conducting a thorough investigation to make a well-informed decision…way corps leadership training program? Nope! It’s how to become the ideal follower. A cult's harmful and controlling leadership training program = A cult's harmful and controlling indoctrination program. Think you have what it takes to be way corps? All you need is money. If your money runs out, you’ll get run out. Program coordinators will come up with some bull-$hit reason to put the fear of The Way International’s puny demigod (wierwille) in the hearts of those remaining. ~ ~ ~ ~ Note of interest: Vetting is the process of performing a background check on someone before offering them employment, conferring an award, or doing fact-checking prior to making any decision. In addition, in intelligence gathering, assets are vetted to determine their usefulness. Etymology To vet was originally a horse-racing term, referring to the requirement that a horse be checked for health and soundness by a veterinarian before being allowed to race. Thus, it has taken the general meaning "to check". It is a figurative contraction of veterinarian, which originated in the mid-17th century. The colloquial abbreviation dates to the 1860s; the verb form of the word, meaning "to treat an animal," came a few decades later—according to the Oxford English Dictionary, the earliest known usage is 1891—and was applied primarily in a horse-racing context ("He vetted the stallion before the race," "You should vet that horse before he races", etc.). By the early 1900s, vet had begun to be used as a synonym for evaluate, especially in the context of searching for flaws. Vetting - Wikipedia

and the honey badger is a completely completely absolutely complete bad-a$$

Trouble is my middle name…well, actually it’s my confirmation name…Hyphen is my middle name: Thelonious Hyphen Trouble Bone I wanted them to put that on my Advanced Class diploma but they said it was too much Trouble …I also suggested they could use the symbol for Hyphen to save space but they felt that would be a bad sign - negative connotations and all…which I poo-pooed anyway after the fake doctor pontificating a bad diagnosis by flip flopping my name to Bone Trouble…that’s when I said “artios, amigos” …now I’m just another absent cult-follower of the Grease Spot kind…the integrity and accuracy of a choice piece of loin (gasp) is always at steak.

wish I had one of those when I was a kid...sigh...the absent toy.

Never said I liked anyone dominating a thread with a bunch of bull-$hit – although I have been guilty of that myself many times. I feel you’re being condescending to me – that’s why I believed I violated your rules of engagement. Now I’m thinking you’re trying to gaslight me into questioning my ability to understand and communicate. Well…maybe I’m not good at all that now – but I don’t know what I can say or do to please you…Maybe there should be a sandbox forum for posters-in-training – I’d be up for that…Or if anyone can provide some links to websites where a dumb-a$$ like me can have some simulated-discussions – I’d appreciate it.

In my opinion - it matters in an open and honest discussion - whether something is important, or about whether something makes a difference. That may not matter to you. And it may not matter to you but I like to think I’m being as open and honest as possible in a discussion and grant everyone else the same benefit of a doubt – not to divine their motives. You may think I’m a dumb-a$$ and so naïve as to be oblivious to anyone’s troll tactics – but I assure you I’m not a total dunce...in case you haven't noticed I have been pointed and selective in my questions and challenges with some sense of decorum in a DISCUSSION.

Right – I wasn’t expecting him to understand – I was simply explaining why I see no need for me to understand his dilemma. FYI – I consider numerous things – but - since when is it a requirement to read someone’s mind to determine if they care? I will look at the rules of Grease Spot again – but I’m pretty sure being telepathic is not a prerequisite for joing a discussion. And I have to confess I am confused on the rules of engagement for a discussion - in the forum rules it covers stuff about trolling - and I have repeated reported certain posts to moderators - and they tell me there's nothing that can be done since they don't violate the rules...I sense that you have your own idea of the rules of engagement - fine - you're entitled to that - no offense, just don't expect me to be all rah rah and accept them every time. Is there some memo I missed? Is there a group PM that didn’t include me? I know this might be hard to believe, but I try to pay attention to the flow of things here. I’ve seen your posts to remind everyone about the point of a discussion. I’ve been trying to tone down my a$$-hole abrasiveness - yeah - got a long way to go - but I don't think I'm still that bad that I need someone lecturing me . Why I keep up with the discussion I don’t know – maybe I’m a glutton for punishment. I have NOT seen an announcement for everyone to ignore a certain poster. Feel free to make an example of me – I’m 69 years old but like to come to the adult table anyway and join in the discussion – so truth be known I don’t care – in case you haven’t read my mind lately.

Mike, there’s no need to reiterate what I said, or give you the page number – just click on this hyperlink > T-Bone’s post February 13th, 2023, 11:23 PM, wierwille’s statement vs Mike’s It’s all right there – your post quoting wierwille and your post to warn others of the devil... and just so you know - I am not expecting you to somehow explain they are not contradictory - I actually tipped my hand in an earlier post, expressing my opinion of the two contradictory ideas.

It’s not that I’m incapable of putting myself in your shoes – it’s that I feel it’s unnecessary to understand a contrived dilemma of your own design. And if I may hazard a guess, the only problem – or challenge, depending on how one looks at it – is how to use troll tactics of dodging, redirection, disruption and derailment so that the effect can be blamed on others…But that’s just my take on things. Mike, please take it easy and dial back the perceived threat level midnight . this is just supposed to be a discussion…If my posts are too long for you just ignore them. Don’t feel obligated to respond to anything of mine – and if you think I’m throwing $hit at you, you’ll get defensive and combative anyway. So, if it’s going to lead to that, just ignore me. I like Grease Spot Café for the discussions – I don’t get out much so it’s one of the few ways I get to socialize.

Charity, that’s cool insight, “I counsel you" being present indicative active ! It speaks of the immanence of Christ. The MacArthur Study Bible notes the relevance of Christ’s presence even for us today, on page 1963, The MacArthur Study Bible notes of Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 : Although these 7 churches were actual, historical churches in Asia Minor, they represent the types of churches that perennially exist throughout the church age. What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ On page 208 of Revelation the Baker Exegetical Commentary by Grant R Osborne the author notes of the spiritual counsel in Rev. 3:18 “I counsel you”: the verb means to “give advice” and is used elsewhere only in John 18:14, where Caiaphas “advised” the Jews that “one man should die for the people.” It deliberately understates (using language language of advice for a command) the seriousness of the situation: “Let me give you some advice, You should…” The manager in Luke 16: 1-8 used his “worldly wealth” to prepare for the future and so was “more shrewd” than “the children of light” because he used his wealth resources for the future and not just the present. So too the Laodiceans should use their “wealth” to “buy” spiritual and not just material rewards. The key here is ἀγοράσαι παρ’ ἐμοῦ = to buy from me. [also see Revelation 3:18 Greek English Interlinear: I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire ] The commercial nature of the verb is perfect for this city.; they had “bought” everything from earthly merchants and so had gone to the wrong “store”. The παρ’ ἐμοῦ is emphatic. Christ is the only proper source of goods that will last, so they have to switch their broker from the marketplace to him… …This builds on the banking and commerce of the city. They think their accumulated possessions have made them rich (3:17), but they are actually poverty-stricken because they have purchased the wrong things…The idea of “purified” also appears in I Pet. 1:7 (“gold, which perishes even though refined by fire”) in a context of suffering and mat recall Ps. 66:10 (“you refined us like silver”; cf. Zech. 13:9; Isa. 1:25)…If 3:19 is understood to mean God is going to send trials, it reinforces this connection between purified gold and personal suffering. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ Circling back to Charity’s point – Christ’s message was / is significant and practical to the Laodiceans and the church today! The time to RSVP is NOW - to listen to His voice and open the door.

That is some earthshaking insight, Bolshevik! at least for me thats probably one of the biggest reasons I took the class and stuck around PFAL and TWI as the platform held such promise for me - “the Word” filling in for the absent Christ until He returns. man, what a let down but my attitude has changed for the better since I left the controlling cult - and learning about and exploring the dynamic quadruple principle the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > me yeah realistically speaking it can be a downer trapped in the space-time continuum but I feel the transcendence/ immanence feature of the Godhead makes things bearable for now.

Sorry to be a pill in this discussion - just trying to make sense out of your response - you say there’s no need to rewrite stuff because it speaks for itself - then you added more stuff, what needs to be read by all. How is this a discussion - when folks have questions about the first batch of stuff? This feels more like being in a classroom with an incompetent teacher who gets impatient with students who have questions about the lesson. I don’t think it’s fair when someone mischaracterizes confusion as having a rotten heart seething with hatred who can’t or won’t read a post. It makes me wonder what is the point of a discussion if clarifying what one says is irrelevant. I wish you would understand how disappointing and frustrating it is to someone who does try to follow your train of thought and wants some clarification only to be condemned for paying attention and asking questions. I get the feeling you’re trying to hide something. For example - Take this long post of yours I quoted. Your point is not revealed until the very end - it was all just an infomercial for wierwille / PFAL / the 1942 promise. You should pay attention to the honest feedback from your audience if you’re truly interested in running an idea up the flagpole. You KNOW FOR A FACT folks generally balk at the premise of wierwille / PFAL / the 1942 promise being unassailable truth. I was not playing gotcha earlier when I pointed out the contradictory nature of your post . I was giving you honest feedback - and if you really wanted to know what I was interested in - you would have realized I PREFER the personal freedom represented in wierwille’s statement rather than being bullied with fear of the devil in your statement…if you wouldn’t let yourself get so worked up over innocent questions we might actually find some common ground.

So in other words, you are shown contradictions in your ‘thesis’ - stuff does NOT fit - and you choose to ignore them. Yeah - no reason to write it up again and correct your errors…oh well - you had your chance…chalk another one up for why you have no credibility here - and nobody cares - not even you.

Now you really sound mixed up! Because earlier you said this: So what’s it going to be? wierwille saying “Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it.” or Mike saying: “the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus” wierwille said whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ - just do it Mike says to beware of having a fake relationship with a fake Jesus. The two statements are mutually exclusive of each other...in other words, the two statements are 'related' in such a way that each makes the other impossible ....each statement is not able to be true at the same time as the other - they can't both be true!

They’re probably talking about a goofball theory Mike posited in the NT Canon thread, The relevant posts and corrective analysis are: 1 here 2 here 3 here 4 analysis

I don't need any of this !

Understood sorry - I missed that - thought you were going in another direction

You’re crystal clear! Why do I sense we’re in disagreement over something? Is it over me citing the term inventors of evil? Hell, I dunno – if you don’t like inventor – how about architect? Of course, all the $hit wierwille has done has been done before and will be done again – seems like there’s a never-ending supply of Weinsteins, Epsteins, and religious leaders that abuse parishioners.

"Anything done with love of God is okay" was just one of wierwille’s methods to redefine Christian love – and that was for the ‘benefit’ of his followers – in other words it was twisted reasoning that his followers accepted. But wierwille was a sociopath – he didn’t need to rationalize anything to alleviate bad feelings. His own behavior didn’t bother him one bit! Not sure what to say about your 2nd paragraph other than the nebulous cauldron of indoctrination that went on in my head while in-residence when wierwille would throw out conscience-recalibrating-and-confusing phrases like that. Depending on how whacked out or inappropriate the context would be – the best I can remember is that I’d feel uncomfortable and childish – and that I had a lot of spiritual maturing to do to think like he did. If you look at my opening post in the thread TWI's sedative to the conscience note what I said: “Fast forward to being in the Family Corps in my early thirties. Sitting in a pajama party – VPW the master of ceremonies showing off his famous doggie porn video, and calling a sixteen-year-old girl up front to show her a porn pen. The most disturbing aspect of this memory to me now is that no alarms were going off in my head at the time of this incident.” With the great respect and extreme admiration I had for wierwille, the anesthetizing of my conscience had already begun by this time. Because NO red flags came up in my head at the time. It’s really freaky to realize that now! A fvcking sexual predator was hiding out in plain sight – but I didn’t see it… ...and some more afterthoughts in light of our present discussion. I never was - nor never became a sexual predator. I never committed adultery. I never cheated on my wife. I never sexually molested any woman… ...but I’m honest enough to admit that my conscience, my sense of boundaries and decorum was definitely tampered with by wierwille’s influence... and who knows how bad my character would have been corrupted had I stayed in TWI – especially in any kind of leadership capacity as way corps – the power structure corrupts…temptations and opportunities will abound.

Well, KJV does mention “inventors of evil things” or if you prefer NIV it’s “they invent ways of doing evil” : Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1 And in light of Romans 1 - I’d have to disagree with saying wierwille was just a vector for evil. Vector = an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another…To me that would relieve wierwille of any responsibility – whereas Romans 1 does NOT alleviate wierwille’s accountability. Borrowed from the “60s-free-love-counterculture”? Sure however you want to look at it. But you know, inventors usually don’t whip up creations out of thin air – they usually get inspiration from something. The Wright Brothers studied birds. It’s unclear to me what you don’t see a difference in. You don't see a difference between a sexual predator and counterculture ? Perhaps if you click on the previous hyperlinks in my sentence - then we convene , discuss and maybe come to an agreement on terms. You seem to be compiling and/or confabulating sexual predator, counterculture, sociopathic and narcissistic.

I imagine wierwille was original in that he was driven by his own lusts. I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general. Now if you want to recast the topic to mean what is the connection of a cult-leader-sexual predator and a change in the sexual mores of young women involved in that cult, the answer should be obvious.

In light of Rocky’s reminder to aim for progress in a discussion - I meant to ask you a few questions about this stuff too. 1. How does the devil tempt Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus? 2. Is it possible to have a real relationship with a fake Jesus? 3. Is it possible to have a fake relationship with a real Jesus? 4. What are your criteria to gauge if a Christian is having a relationship with a fake Jesus? 5. What indicates Christians are refusing to see and obey the church epistles? 6. What in the church epistles needs to be seen and obeyed? 7. Can you give examples of Christians seeking comfort in a lovey-dovey, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus. 8. What is the tipping point when the behavior in a relationship becomes excessively affectionate (lovey-dovey) ? 9. What is the difference between chatty or informal idolatry and official idolatry? 10. Is this 'chatting idolatry' done only in public – or can it be done in private as well? 11. Why does it sadden you to see this chatty idolatry? 12. Please describe genuine comfort. 13. What in your opinion is the biggest reason why said Christians cannot provide relief to those seeking reconciliation with God?

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name… John 20: 30, 31 Taking into consideration John alluding to other activities of Jesus NOT recorded in the Bible, it would be very remiss for one to assume the book of Acts is any different. I think one reason why the book of Acts was written was to record key events in the birth and growth of the church. One should not assume that’s ALL that happened in that time.