T-Bone

as clearly stated in my first post (see below also) - feel free to express yourself and move the thread to questioning faith forum.

well crap - there goes my next post

Ya know, I get that...it’s like when I’m watching a movie and see someone defeating an access control point on a door by shooting or blasting or using a jumper wire at the keypad or card reader....uhm those systems are a lot more complicated than that - unless you’re talking about a jerry-rigged do-it-yourself design for your garage door opener.

Hey Raf, “Shattered Glass” sounds interesting – I looked it up on IMDB and after reading Roger Ebert’s review (giving it 3.5 stars out of 4) – and knowing it’s based on a true story - I definitely would like to check it out. Ebert even said it deserves comparison with “All the President’s Men”…That’s saying a lot. Roger Ebert's review of Shattered Glass Shattered Glass on IMDB besides the fact that it has Chloe Sevigny – I love her work – first time I noticed her was in HBO’s “Big Love” as one of Bill Paxton’s sister-wives – man oh man – I would often say to my wife her character is definitely way corps material - - also she does great in a comedy format `- maybe you’ve seen her on “Portlandia”. There is something so convincing about the intensity she brings to a role. Thinking of movies about journalists, reporters and such - here's my short list of some good thrillers / entertainment / drama - in my opinion (some fiction, some based on true stories) – I have all these and will watch them at least once a year...in no particular order: as mentioned above All the President's Men To Die For Good Luck and Good Night Nightcrawler Spotlight Almost Famous Broadcast News Absence of Malice State of Play

Thanks Thomas & Don’t Worry, Don’t know if it’s that I’m just getting older or it’s the way I deal with the PTSD of surviving a cult but I have a hard time remembering a lot of details like that....either way - maybe it’s a blessing anyway.

Thanks for the link you gave for the commentary on Romans 13 - it handles a lot of these issues quite admirably

Oh yeah - my wife and I went to it - PFAL '77...hey, Grease Spotters, was it at Ball State U or was that Advanced Class '79 ? we've been to both live classes...yeah and I think "the teacher" was drunk at both of them most of the time we were in session.

Hi InfoAbsorption, As I expressed in an earlier post - I understand Romans 13 is addressing the institution of government (as something established by God) - and reiterating the commentaries I quoted in that post: those passages do NOT specify a particular form of government (democracy, monarchy, etc.) - nor does it assume any or all governments conduct their affairs justly. As I tried to express in that earlier post - speculating as a Christian with a flair for 2-bit sociology - - in the big picture, we are all made in the image and likeness of God; it follows from that - as the Creator has endowed us with freewill - there is always the possibility of a person or group of people choosing to go against the Creator’s wishes or intent - be it an individual act of evil or a group effort (like a government). That does not mean the Creator condones the evil act(s) simply because he gave humans freedom of will. I could be wrong but I think Romans 13 is addressing Christians in the context of whatever government they live under - for conscience sake - which again I could be wrong but I take that to mean I should obey the government as long as they do not direct me to do something in violation of the principles of my faith. Again - not trying to be repetitive- but my previous post did list some passages where believers did go against government wishes for conscience sake.

I fail to see the conundrum you’re talking about. could you explain your reasoning behind what you said: “...Here is something else to consider that makes this even more confusing: at the time Paul made these statements didn't Satan and the rest of the fallen angels have dominion over the gentile nations? Surely God isn't telling Christians to obey the dark side...“ I think it would be contradictory of Paul to direct Christians to obey the dark side - when he just said obey the authorities for conscience sake (Romans 13:5) besides the fact that it would go against what he said in other passages like I Thessalonians 5:5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. NIV. I tend to think obeying “the dark side “ would be a violation of conscience if one was a Christian.

Human , I’m with ya on all those...”Leon the Professional “ written and directed by Luc Besson - - check it out - - some of his movies are about empowering women : Lucy, the Fifth Element (probably ranks hi on my all time favorites), La Femme Nikita and remake Point of No Return. Yeah Grace , Harrison F is good as an understated actor...I like the first Indiana Jones Raiders - and the last one - Kingdom of the Crystal Skull - it’s jam packed with great scenes starting out with Indiana surviving an atomic blast rolling end over end in a lead-lined refrigerator to the crystal skull aliens wrapping up the end a-la-another dimension or something....check out Harrison F in “Presumed Innocent “ - good thriller for sure... I like Rocky 1 and 3 the best...I endure Rocky IV just to watch James Brown perform! I do think the last one “Creed” is really good too - there’s kind of a symmetry with Creed and Rocky 1 .

Grace you're talking about the good stuff now....the 70's a great year...like a fine wine ....again not to brag or anything but I have "Chinatown", and have bought Mel Brooks collection on Blu-ray, as well as "Godfather" collection on Blu-ray !!!! I think I need to invest in a good popcorn machine now

I bet she spends most of her day rolling in the dough !!!!!

Grace, I LOVE "All the President's Men" - I had a regular copy of it on DVD - but then when they came out with a 2 disc special edition on Blu-ray I had to get that - has a bunch of extras, documentaries, etc. "Wizard of Oz" is a GREAT movie - I loved it ever since I watched it as a little kid

If I wrote it there’d be a lot of folks who would probably think i plagiarized II Peter chapter 2. II Peter 2

Understood- I figured all that - but just as an aside to all who follow Grease Spot, I always have in mind the wider audience when I craft a reply - it’s usually not just “addressed “ to the person I quote. And so.... replying to what you said on the frustration and futility of trying to apply TWI’s solutions to real-world problems- - I agree; just from my 2-bit analysis of the typical TWI mindset I tend to think - - other than someone’s proclivity to promote TWI doctrine, which may certainly be the case here too - - that frame of thought has failed to identify the cause of the problem. Ya know, many religions try to answer the problem of evil, why bad things happen to good people, why people do bad things, etc. - - but to suggest the law of believing (i.e. someone’s lack of believing or fear of something) or that focusing on bible verses or this thing called “The Word” will prevent negative things from happening is nothing but fantasy or setting one’s hope on magic. And I think if one has a tendency to hide their head in the sand to ignore the news - there’s probably a good chance they’ll get trampled underfoot by some beach bum not looking where they’re going.

I'm assuming you're asking rhetorical questions. but to answer anyway - - if the perpetrator of such an act is a citizen of our country then they are a part of our society - like it or not - and still subject to the laws of the land...but if not a citizen of our country - though committing such an act in our country - then they are still subject to the laws of the land.

not at all...I merely made an observation of similarities and mentioned just one possible inference

great correlation there, OutandAbout !!!!

First a little background on what brought me to start this thread. Awhile back on another thread a poster referenced an article by Peter Enns. I liked it so much I purchased a few books by him – - and now I’m enjoying that familiar experience of reevaluating certain beliefs in light of some new information…new to me anyway. I will get to something from one of his books in a little bit – but let me finish “the background.” Recently on another thread I offered a very brief analysis of one of The Way International’s favorite buzzwords (Way-speak or ministry jargon) which is simply “The Word”. From which Twinky suggested I start a thread "The Word of God is the Will of God??". Well…after mulling that over for a bit - - I decided it might be more interesting to hear from Grease Spotters on what is their current view of the Bible. It could be a combo of past and present views, why a change in your viewpoint, how you approach putting the stuff you learn into practice, why you don’t think it’s a book of any practical value, what you think of the quote from Peter Enns' book given below…whatever…In other words – the discussion is open to anyone – not just Christians. I really wasn’t thinking of starting a what’s wrong (or right) with The Way or The Way’s Doctrine thread…although I’m not going to play thread-police-control, so whatever happens, happens. Hey, I don’t care - if this thread flops – I’m willing to go down with the ship – which just happens to be a submarine anyway . I titled this thread “Concerning the Bible” – and that gives you the ok to comment on just about anything that comes to mind when hearing that phrase... uhm.. also that was on the top of the page in Peter Enns’ book - hey, a young plagiarist has got to start somewhere! …I also had as a subtitle “confessions of a former fundamentalist” so that readers might understand where I’m coming from. I have stated a few times over my years of being on Grease Spot that my beliefs are in a state of flux. I used to be such a study bug and checked out numerous versions of the Bible, a wide variety of systematic theologies, commentaries, biblical studies , etc....And so it was with perhaps a simple unspoken criteria for choosing what to read and study loosely based upon my preferences: -> the authors were NEVER associated with The Way, that they stuck to general academic standards, had reputable credentials – or at least honest in representing their area of expertise, - > that the things discussed made sense to me (they didn’t use double-talk or screwball “logic”) especially in areas that differed from what I was taught in The Way - >. and lastly and perhaps most important especially after leaving a dishonest and controlling cult – the books I chose appeared to be an upfront presentation of information (in other words, not having a hidden agenda of treachery) and of course arming myself with the nuanced understanding that they may have arguments intended to support or defend a particular doctrine. Going back and forth on what I think of this or that in my studies - - a few things seem to have been fairly constant in my belief system: there is a Creator, Jesus Christ is an actual person who once walked the earth, and the Bible is instrumental to informing me of the moral demands of the Creator. And it’s really the last point – the Bible as part of my moral navigation system that has always captivated me. There’s been quite a few times while reading some theological work that I would get the feeling I’m a cop-out for not holding to the fundamentalist mindset that I had in The Way Ministry…that I am a sub-standard Christian…my faith being damaged goods…who knows…maybe so… but if the will is still present to pursue a life of faith – then how screwed up is that? Okay – don’t answer that question - - I’ll just get to a quote from a book that offered me a glimmer of hope in understanding - at least in part “what a long strange trip it’s been.” There is something a little scary but also exciting when you cut loose the moorings of familiar dogma and set a course for uncharted waters. Granted, many way-points are probably familiar to others but not for someone like me who started on a journey with the idea that PFAL was the end-all for everything you wanted to know about anything. This is not a post to defend the Bible or my beliefs but simply a declaration of the course I have set. And now on to an excerpt from one of Peter Enns’ books… (And please don’t gasp when you hear the first part of the title of the book and start having PFAL flashbacks – please read the rest of the title as well as the quotes – you may be pleasantly surprised) The following is from page vii of The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It, by Peter Enns, Harper One – Harper Collins Publishers, co. 2014: "The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘The Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its overall message… We might have expected, we may think we should have preferred, an unrefracted light giving us ultimate truth in systematic form – something we could have tabulated and memorized and relied on like the multiplication table…But there is one argument which we should beware of using...God must have done what is best, this is best, therefore God has done this. For we are mortals and do not know what is best for us, and it is dangerous to prescribe what God must have done – especially when we cannot, for the life of us, see that He has after all done it." End of excerpt == == == == Well…that’s all I wanted to share for now and would like to see to what other folks have to say - - - oh hey, forgot to mention the above quotes from Peter Enns' book - – well…he did NOT actually say those things... ....at the bottom of page vii, Peter references where he got them from… C.S. Lewis ...in his Reflections on the Psalms… I don’t know about you - - but as a former fundamentalist still nervously treading along a self-guided journey and realizing those words came from a very familiar author who I have respected and loved ever since I first laid eyes on The Screwtape Letters (and since I never read or heard of his Reflections on the Psalms) it was a combination of shock, euphoria, and validation all at once. Praise Jesus and pass the bookmarks! Okay - - now I’m done…anybody else have any thing they want to add? == == == one other thing...addressing the Moderators now - i just realized maybe I should have posted this in questioning faith forum...I don't care if you need to move it - go ahead

hmmmm...ain't no two ways about it, my friend...we're both gonna take a beatin' ah yes...that takes me back to the good ol' daze before I got involved in "the proper church lifestyle" - I used to get hammered with my friends

apology accepted........just kidding...no need to apologize... it's just part of the clarification process in cyberspace and maybe some of that "iron sharpens iron" a la Proverbs 27:17 thrown in si-mo-tane-e-us-lee while happening at the same time (how's that for the more redundant life?)

Hmmmmmm....same set up as Adam had in the Garden of Eden...look how that turned out....there seems to be a pattern here.

Maybe if the society he’s talking about is the Borg and there’s a glitch in the hive-mind

Hey just thought I’d back track and address a few incidental comments in your posts – “As for the rest of my post (which you didn't comment upon) I feel that for the most part, we're in (basic) agreement…” Though I politely tried to address that by saying my belief system is in a state of flux and my perspective has probably changed quite a bit and differs from yours – I don’t think I expressed just how divergent we are on many things – but don’t think now is the time to get into all the details – or that it’s even necessary to later. I’m afraid the sentiment in your above statement tends to overgeneralize and thus obscure many salient points of a discussion. by the way, having an opinion or perspective different from mine is great - but that’s not the issue.... the issue is trying to smooth things over for a group hug - to tip toe around controversy may often obscure the details - whether the details are in contrast to one another, complement one another - - or perhaps opposing details reveal there's more to it than what's been discussed so far. I appreciate opposing viewpoints - helps to bring many angles to light that I hadn’t thought of before. If you dull the tips of point / counterpoint you blunt the tools of sharp thinking. I don’t think you’re trying to be deceitful or manipulative …and maybe it’s just me but I feel like someone is NOT listening to what I’m saying when they say something like “for the most part we’re in agreement” ... I say “whoa whoa whoa back up a minute – for the most part? What part is that? Please be specific!” == == == == Also, I beg to differ on your comments: “For all you know, what "you decide" to look into just might be God himself allowing you to suppose those are "your great ideas" --- when in all reality, it just may be that HE (just as written) "is working in you to do of his good pleasure"! If you can "read between the lines", consider the possibility of 1Co 12:11 meaning that (as you're already willing, by your own choices and personality) God is behind that already --- according to his plan for you personally...leading you RIGHT WHERE YOU WANT TO GO ANYWAY! Just remember to give him the credit for "those good ideas of yours", because they're probably his to begin with anyway!” I don’t mean to be picayune on stuff – but for some reason this reminds me of an old wierwille Sunday Night Teaching tape called “Carnal vs Spiritual” – that went along the lines of carnal man is a dumba$$ and it’s only when you have God’s spirit that you are really smart and can be creative… To me this truly insults the Creator as well as his creation (us ) – and if you think about it – wierwille's "logic" also relieves folks of responsibility and limits their options..."don't blame me - blame God - it was his idea.". or ...."the reason you failed was because you didn't listen to God's spirit in you"...yeah - how stupid and lame it is to think that -... .. instead , why not review your thought process - kick your critical and creative thinking skills into high gear and work out the problem! …If the Creator truly made us in his image and likeness – then don’t you think being creative might be something godlike? As a Christian I consider the level of intelligence behind the design of the cosmos and it’s truly mind-boggling! So is it no surprise then to stand back in wonder when looking at all the amazing advances in the fields of technology, medicine, the sciences, etc. that showcase our godlike talents of critical and creative thinking. Let’s give credit where credit is due and acknowledge our responsibility to use our God-given talents. I even think when we use our talents in benevolence toward our fellowman that is a glory to God – you are fulfilling the purpose for which you were designed.

"mind bottling" ...that's one way to say how cults encourage closed-mindedness....ya know, a bottled-up mind doesn't get out much...I'm here all week folks.. rewriting Jim Croce's tune: ...If I could save my mind in a bottle... (glad I don't get paid for my songwriting )