T-Bone

Alright Twinky and Grace, Keep on with the keepin’ on

Well that’s a shame Twinky - I don’t think I’m alone when I say your input is always appreciated - so don’t let one person ignoring you put the kibosh on what you have to say! and another thing we Grease Spotters might want to keep in mind - that we’re addressing a wider audience than just folks on a particular thread (i.e. lurkers, folks still in TWI , offshoots, etc. who may read your comments too....or stumble upon them years from now - if Grease Spot is still around...I hope so.) Being ignored doesn’t keep me from enjoying the discussion with other folks. ...Heck, I tried a different approach on this thread in an effort to keep to the topic and not start a fight over anything: I did not quote the person who started the thread - though my points were distinctly at variance with his first post. I deliberately did not mention TWI or wierwille when referring to that know-it-all mindset I had in my younger days (when I was in TWI) I know how certain folks get all defensive or antagonistic and may even take it personal if you criticize something wierwille taught or did, or if you even just make yourself vulnerable by admitting how much influence he once had over your mind and lifestyle. ...but alas he ignored me too...maybe he hit the ignore button on me...I should be so lucky....to be honest , I think I need an ignore button for myself...sometimes I can really annoy the $hit out of myself....dang - I found the enema - and it is me!

Ya know, perhaps there’s been some confusion due to different expectations...I was thinking this was a group discussion in the doctrinal forum...maybe the person who started this thread anticipated a conservative church sermon setting - i.e. no interrupting the preacher kind of thing.

After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it a try and will employ a great technique I learned from the “master “ himself by plagiarizing a little bit from the gospel crucifixion account: It was about the ninth session, and the whole mess was plodding along like it always did - and there was darkness over the whole class like it was in the beginning with audio and Beta tapes. wierwille said to himself “ i am finished - ain’t no way I can pull this off again” ; then he cried in a loud voice “I thirst!” - and immediately one of his assistants refilled his cup with Drambuie. looking down from the double-cross he liked to pull on his adoring fans he said “my peeps, behold thy teacher.” Then one of the ordained who stood guard, shook his head and said to himself “this truly is a waste of time.”

Fat chance of TWI’s sexual assaults coming to light by the media - but your post got me thinking about the multiple methods of suppression in TWI. The abuse of power / sexual harassment have been a part of our culture for a long time. So I can understand the thinking of the victims in not coming forward in times past - being afraid of the backlash or the negative impact to their career, etc. But besides that - wierwille had several other methods to suppress word getting out about his sexual assaults. Things like “Lockbox” , adulation for the man of god, and even subverting the conscience of victims by saying things like “anything done in the love of god is ok”. Sorry - didn’t me to get off topic - but thought I should throw my 2 cents in.

Oh I get it...well if she doubled as a pimp (a booker for “appointments “ ) she could be called a booker hooker.

I’m sorry maybe I misunderstood the last statement of your previous post: “I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?” I was responding to your question by citing other passages that appear to speak of his preexistence. Concerning God’s foreknowledge, consider this verse: I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please....Isaiah 46:10 NIV And since God inhabits eternity as Isaiah 57:15 says... which would mean he is a being not bound within a timeline - I would assume he “sees” all participants in his foreknowledge of future events - including himself...sorry if I’m not understanding your point or missing a distinction you’re trying to make.

What’s a Booker?

Dear human known as Twinky, I am glad you asked. Currently I’m just getting by since I am on operating system DOS 6.0 ...prehistoric, I know...I’ve been wanting to upgrade myself to a Windows operating system - - but the engineers tell me I will first need to have a whole bunch of firmware replaced in my mainframe…oops, scratch that - I mean my body.

Robots can provide the critical listening skills you need when trying to spot shady sales reps as well as perform the standard raised eyebrow to anything dubious. Why not have a robot tag along on your next shopping spree.

Actually I was being sarcastic - i was mocking the assumption hidden in the statement made by the person on stage , to show my contempt for what he suggested: He asked “did Paul need to rewrite Ephesians?” I see that now as another subtle attempt by the goons in power to elevate PFAL to the status of the Holy Bible...and so my intention in saying “Did Paul plagiarize Ephesians?” was really alluding to the fact that wierwille plagiarized when he put together PFAL. I do apologize if my sarcasm did not come across as such - though I tried to indicate I was joking by using the goofy devil in sunglasses ( ) at the end of my statement...my opinion of the Bible is - by far - a lot higher than that of wierwille’s work - and do not wish to disparage the scriptures in any way. Though I must also add - the way I look at the Bible has changed quit a bit since I left TWI - - not to get off topic on this thread, I’ll make a shameless plug for a thread I started in doctrinal “Concerning the Bible: Confessions of a Former Fundamentalist” where you can read about that departure by myself and others - you and other Grease Spotters are welcome to contribute also - telling about your journey thus far after leaving behind the TWI mindset.

We’ll be right back after a word from my sponsor: hey, how come you never write ?!? ! I keep sending you money, money, money and more money. What’s the deal?

Whenever it was determined PFAL 77 was a royal flop - I do recall one of “the spin doctors “ (no actual degree is required for that) made an announcement from the stage (in between sessions ) - which I now think was a feeble attempt to redirect folks from thinking that this would replace the “original “ class...he asked did Paul need to rewrite Ephesians? While his statement may be chock-full of bull$hit it also raises another question. Did Paul plagiarize Ephesians?

The way I understand it – and I could be wrong – perhaps confusion arises from forgetting the dual nature of Jesus Christ – since John 1:18 in the Greek can be translated he is one of a kind (which if it is addressing that duality – again, I’m not sure - could encompass both his human and divine nature - - a hybrid if you will)…Replying to the last part of your post - there are other verses that one could interpret as speaking of Christ’s preexistence: John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" …John 1:15 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." … John 8:58 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….John 17:5 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ…I Corinthians 10: 1-4

sorry - you lost me after revisionist history ...it's also possible one is lost in an alternate universe

Recently my son and I went to see Blade Runner 2049. It’s been out for a while and we decided to go on a week night - catch the 9:30PM show – we figured we’d have the theater mostly to ourselves. True to our expectations, there were not more than 10 or 12 folks (mostly guys…this ain’t no date movie…it’s for true blue sci-fi fans); hey, lounge chair recliners ! this is as close as it gets to having your own personal world-class home theater room. Before the movie started I could sense great anticipation judging by the animated buzz in the clusters of the randomly seated audience. My only concern was this middle aged guy at the other end of our row that was going over every scene and detail of the original Blade Runner (1982) to his daughter/date/friend? (not sure of the relationship) – and he was loud – I thought he was either trying to impress her with his powers of total-movie-recall or he was trying to convince her this would be just as exciting as Thelma & Louise – only imagine them as biorobotic androids driving a car with jet propulsion that can easily fly over the Grand Canyon…which is now in L.A.…well…needless to say this guy was really excited about BR 2049…and I was worried he would talk and make comments throughout the entire film. …Anyway….uhm…oh yeah…the movie, the movie…my son and I are fans of Philip K. Dick stories; we really enjoyed it – if you liked the Blade Runner (1982 ) I think you might enjoy this one; it’s not a reboot but a sequel – and picks up some 30 years later. The cinematography and sound track of BR 2049 kept with the same style as the first BR - which takes an imaginative look at the differences between humans and artificial intelligence…sometimes it’s almost overwhelming to the eyes and ears…so there’s a lot to take in besides the fascinating plot and themes. As far as I’m concerned Blade Runner 2049 is the sleeper hit of the year – but not for anything that has to do with the movie. As I said at the start of this thread – it’s really not about the movie but about my movie going experience. BR 2049 is 2 hours and 44 minutes long …and praise the projector room gods, total-movie-recall dude was quiet! …until about two thirds of the way through the movie...what's that I hear? the total-movie-recall dude is sawing logs…heavy duty like…as if he was juggling chainsaws in his sleep…I’m sure the entire audience could hear it during lulls in the movie soundtrack – which by the way was often punched with loud low-end frequencies from synthesizers and sound effects on the order of 4 stroke engines through electric bass amplifiers that go up to 11. Interesting observation here - - his snoring appeared to be reactive to when the soundtrack volume ramped up – reminded me of something like an old-timey cartoon of the burglar sneaking by a sleeping night watchman of a jewelry store – the burglar steps on a creaky floorboard and the watchman stirs a little in his sleep. Well, so maybe the movie wasn’t your typical sleeper hit…more of a sleep-inducing hit – with this guy anyway. Blade Runner 2049 is a pretty engrossing show – and my son and I were really into it – so our neighbor sawing logs was no big distraction to us…besides I am not a confrontational-type person…and we kinda found the whole thing funny too. Toward the latter part of the movie a guy three rows in front of Mr. ZZZZZZzzzzzz got out of his seat and bent down low he approaches total-movie-recall dude as one might try to awaken a freeway driver who dozed off behind the wheel (well maybe it wasn't that dangerous a situation but it was a very heroic act of bravery in my book) – he was shining a flashlight in the guy’s face while at the same time reaching out to shake one of his feet perched on the recliner’s extended footrest ( I know that’s what he was attempting to do because we caught up with He Who Attempts to Awake Another on the escalator down after the show and compared observations and theories – did the guy have a few drinks before the show? Why didn’t the lady he was with try to wake him? Was she faking sleep to avoid dealing with this situation ? was she faking sleep because she was embarrassed to be in this situation?...I can imagine conspiracy theories as complex as those about the JFK assassination coming out of this night! ) ...oh yeah, oh yeah - back to the awakening attempt - at this point my son pointed a flashlight at He Who Attempts to Awake Another – which startles him so he withdraws – as if a burglar interrupted before he could steal another man’s sleep, he quickly retreated back to his seat – mission aborted. Monsieur Dormez-Vous remained asleep even as the credits began to roll by… We still have a good laugh about the whole thing – how odd and defiant of the mores of a civilized society. I think good movies are ones that get you to think and talk about them long after the movie is over. And I must say, when relating all this to my friends who are also sci-fi fans - this has got to be the only movie that I’ve spent almost an equal amount of time talking about the great sleeper incident as much as Blade Runner 2049. == == == == == Oh yeah…where was I? guess I better give a few movie-related details : Blade Runner 2049 Blade Runner (1982) Philip K Dick on IMDB Philip K Dick (from Wikipedia)

Grace, do you realize what would happen if I did that? I would have to practice what I preach...uh uh...no sister, that's where I draw the line...I've got principles ya know just kidding...thanks for your kind words, Grace

What a great movie and what a great scene! Thanks for that clip, Rocky ! I am ashamed to say it reminds me of my former life when I thought I had all the answers and would dole them out with the cold clinical efficiency of a Pez dispenser . That scene from Good Will Hunting resonates with me so much more now than when I first saw it - because it’s like the older, more real-world experiences me talking to the younger know-it-all me that lived in my own little idealistic world. I’m fascinated by how Twinky’s posts kind of gives an illustration of how one situation plays out in real life... sometimes there’s things, situations, relationships, etc. you can’t fix, or may not have all the answers to, or maybe you have to seek help from others...but you’re still involved IN it! You’re invested in it...it’s life in the real world... maybe my 2 cents on this thread about who do you love - is this: I love my family and friends - even when it’s tough - even when we’re acting ugly to each other...nobody needs to tell me I should love them or how to love them...it comes naturally...sometimes love is expressed as forgiveness...how my wife and I might express that after an argument or fight is quite simple really - - one of us will say to the other “thanks for putting up with me”.

Twinky I appreciate you sharing something so personal...and perhaps it’s something we all can relate to in some degree or another. I think by and large all families have various dysfunctional dynamics going on that’s unique to their “clan”. Guess that comes with the territory (the human condition).

Grace, I hear ya - there’s a part of human nature that doesn’t like to swallow pride, or reconsider the way one handles business or relationships - but the directive in Matthew 18 tells us to challenge that tendency in the one who is at fault....if you look at the usage of “repent” in the Bible - it really goes along this same line . i think repentance is an integral part of the Christian lifestyle - otherwise verses that say wherefore , put away lying or let him that stole , steal no more are pointless.

another thought to add to the passage Rocky brought up In Matthew 18, Jesus Christ tells us there’s a whole lot more to forgiveness than just granting some kind of clemency to those who’ve wronged us - because that will frustrate the reconciliation process - which is the whole point of forgiveness anyway if you think about it. 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector....Matthew 18:15-17 I think even Ephesians 4:26 may be related to this: BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, In other words - use the energy of your anger to work things out between you and someone else - rather than let it build up inside you - like carrying a grudge, growing resentment, etc. In my experience I’ve found that just forgiving someone who has wronged me rather than trying the reconciliation process of Matthew 18 has many times left me feeling frustrated and bitter and the wrongdoer doesn’t have a clue of the harm they have done and probably doesn’t see the need to change their ways.

good point Skyrider and that reminds me of one PFAL ‘77 session when he was going over one of his wooden phrases “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other” - when suddenly “rev” Bob M jumps up in the balcony (we were seated near him) - cups his hands around his mouth megaphone-style and yells “the transitive property of equality”...I can’t remember the reaction of wierwille on stage because I was awe struck - or maybe aghast - that someone in the class would call out while “doctor” was teaching. This goes to show you the students knew the material better than the “teacher” - if you want to call him that...he11, he couldn’t even be a substitute teacher...he would be the last resort if you’re short handed on substitute teachers - so you get the doofus who makes copies in the admin’s office figuring maybe he’ll at least be able to parrot some of the material that he copied and wing it to fill in the rest.

Yup that’s the point - the starter post did cast a wide net - sort of asking in a round about way ,for one’s journey thus far... “in a nutshell “ as you put it... Yes, yours and InfoAbsorption’s are exactly what I’ve been hoping for in continuing this thread.... and that’s really all I want to say for now since I’ve said way too much already. I think the starter post would have been right to the point if someone like you - who puts words together for a living - had started it rather than a technician who specializes in technical writing so as to deluge the reader with way too many details. ....ok now I’m done... that’s it ...finis...

ahem...if I may say a few more words... to all who view this thread, Honestly there is no right or wrong answer I’m watching out for…actually I think I’m wanting a taste of the good old days of Grease Spot when some of us (and sadly some of the posters I have not seen here in a few years) would set aside our differences and “philosophize” about the journey thus far. Come to think of it – I should have said something in my first post that described the enormous influence Grease Spot has had – and even continues to have when I process certain things. maybe there's something to "no man is an island" - especially when I'm trying to figure .my way out of a convoluted hot mess...whatever that is...I appreciate the help. Yes, we can be a hypercritical and argumentative bunch – and probably more so than any other “think tank” …and that probably has a lot to do with many of us being young and naïve when we were involved with a certain controlling organization…and in my opinion, it’s only natural that we bounce back with a vengeance…release the hounds of critical thinking I won’t say much more about what I’m personally looking for on this thread – as I said there is no right or wrong answer – I don’t get into judging one person’s approach as superior or inferior – intellectually or emotionally - from someone else's aprroach…perhaps if folks need a little more direction on what to say - - I would suggest consider what I did in my first post – I gave a few details on things I’ve read, my criteria – or preferences for reading material – and the core elements of my belief system during this journey…honestly I could be wrong on any and all of this (the core elements of my beliefs) – so I’m not fishing for validation. And for that matter - looking for some direction - look at Twinky’s posts - great input there - thanks Twinky!!! I happen to think in many ways people are more alike than different – but I am always fascinated by the different ways folks process stuff…so that’s it for me…sorry I’m still verbose dadgumit …and maybe this is just an exercise in futility…if so, sorry to waste everyone’s time.

indeed all views are welcome, as far as I'm concerned. and sorry to be repetitive and self-referencing - but one of the last points I made in my first post was - - hopefully - - setting the spirit of this thread...perhaps inspiring others to share the reasoning for the course they have set...and if folks would think about the bigger picture...context...the common ground of Grease Spot - that being most of us here were a part of a group (The Way International) that has a fundamentalist view of the Bible...therefore - - in my thinking anyway - - there is no reason for debate or defending one's choice of path since they left TWI (assuming all who respond have left - but it could be one is still in TWI - they too are free to explain the path of their choice ) I dunno ....maybe it's wishful thinking on my part...was just shooting for a discussion that wouldn't be another hostile bashing of opposing views on anything.