T-Bone

Great points George ! I was looking up "research" on Grease Spot because I was thinking of that idea that TWI would change something that they taught if further research proved otherwise; I remember hearing that occasionally and thought well that's real impressive - they're after the truth even if they have to change their position on something...so other than the Eli Eli thing you mentioned - has there ever been any changes made ? the sciences are not based on a pile of dusty old books with observations, data, theories and ideas etched in stone - I mean as tools, technologies, data acquisition improve - so does our picture of the cosmos. we would never have any technological advances in any field if everyone was as closed-minded as TWI "research" folks - they don't even have a research department anymore or do they? I tend to think the dangerous assumption on TWI's part is that there are no issues with their doctrine - or at least it's the assumption of the general public.

The only thing that would bother me is that I bought extended warranties on a bunch of stuff

That reminds me of the old I’m-rubber-you’re-glue accusation reversal when I was a kid... that’s why I went with pointing all five fingers Magneto-style toward someone - this tends to thwart the three finger turn around Maneuver...

thanks for the link, WordWolf !

Do you remember the old phrase “this ___________ (fill in the blank with the product of your choice) practically sells itself” ? It has many useful applications - like a salesman bragging about how good his product is – to a sales manager giving a pep talk to the new recruits of his sales force. If it was that easy – then everyone should succeed at selling it. Like in the old commercial of the guy who is a natural at sales but his selling skills are not needed with this product – all he has to do is mention the name of the car and a customer swoops in and – $ ding $ - sold! I don’t know how many times I’ve been in way-meetings geared to outreach, getting a class together, moving “the word”, witnessing, etc. that more or less said the same thing in any number of clever ways. But one of the differences between selling a name brand car and snake oil (like PFAL, WAP, and any other maximum-amount-of-bull$hit-in-a-minimum-amount-of-time class) is that one is a reliable form of transportation and the other takes you for a ride…or if you prefer the savvy consumer translation: the car actually does work based on a good design of real working parts…whereas snake oil is a fraudulent liniment that does not have snake extract in it; it has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. I’m the farthest thing from ever wanting to be a salesman. I prefer to work with tools and fix stuff. Years ago, I was young…naïve…idealistic…and was actively searching for something – just didn’t know what it was I was looking for…I was checking out eastern religions, ESP, Edgar Cayce – but when I saw “enables you to separate truth from error” (one of the fantastic claims on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card) my heart said “sold!”…My searching was over…pass the syllabus and praise the snake oil mill. I joined The Way International because I believed that all their fantastic claims and promises were true. It’s a funny thing though…I spent 12 years spinning my wheels chasing after elusive pipe dreams – always trying to convince myself and others that all of TWI’s fantastic claims and promises of benefits were for real. I want to add a side note here that sort of relates to how I use to view PFAL. Not too long ago I found a fascinating observation made by author Daniel Klein in “Every Time I find the Meaning of Life, They Change It”, page 3: “But in recent Western philosophy, the how-to-live question has pretty much taken a backseat to the question of epistemology (How can we know what is real and true?) and logic (What are the necessary principles of reason and rational discourse?).” I use to think of PFAL as an all-in-one package…like a one-stop-shop - - I understood it to be something that answered the how-to-live question, how I could know what is real, and it would all be logical and make sense from any angle. it was supposed to solve the how to live more than abundantly question…it was supposed to enable me to separate truth from error …it was supposed to show me how to increase the power of God in my life…it was supposed to bring me to the place that I know that I know that I know… The problem with PFAL, WAP, or whatever classes they push - is that age old problem of snake oil - questionable and unverifiable in quality and benefit ....so promoters have to make a lot of empty promises and claims that the product cannot fulfill...and here's how the scam is perpetuated - we do whatever suckers do when they really buy into the product, by investing more time, money and resources...we don't want to admit we've been duped...no, we're too smart for that...besides our leaders tell us if we would simply believe in the greatness of what's in this class or that class we'd have no problem getting others interested in it...the class would literally sell itself...folks would hear how much we think we're enriched by the class and they'd want to think like that too. yeah that's the ticket - talk it up big! ...so we keep telling ourselves we've got to get our believing up...be positive in our attitude...make sure we're confessing positive things... study the class materials more...keep our minds immersed in it...master it! our hope is in keeping at it so diligently - someday all that effort will payoff...I mean how smart is that? To deny the obvious - that it doesn't work...we're just fooling ourselves...it's also known as self-deception - and I'm sorry to say it but sometimes we can be so good at that. self-deception is the fine art of rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument...so I ask you - how's that more than abundant life working out for you? Is the lifestyle of a way-believer everything they said it was? TWI is lucky there's no lemon law for classes that have no practical value. If you buy a new car and it keeps breaking down most states have lemon laws to protect the consumer - and you can get your money back, get a different car, or whatever the state deems is a fair way to handle it...honestly, where are all the benefits you're supposed to have received from taking the classes? what kind of results have you seen by applying what you've learned in the classes? …Oh, by the way, this post is not about revealing TWI's formula for snake oil. You can read about that in lots of other threads in the About The Way forum. No, these are tips on selling snake oil for all you reluctant sales reps out there (folks still involved with The Way International). Ready for the first tip? You have to convince yourself that the __________ (fill in the blank with your choice of the maximum-amount-of-bull$hit-in-a-minimum-amount-of-time class) sells itself…you have to be sold on the idea that it sells itself. You MUST BELIEVE IN IT. You MUST BELIEVE IT REALLY WORKS. And remember a person convinced against their will just needed more time at the Snake Oil Mill (fyi – it’s in Ohio). Here’s a few more tips on how to sell yourself on the value of snake oil which an unspecified number of people claim actually work – figuratively speaking, of course: Visualize what success will look like – believing images of victory – picture Eve closing the sale of snake oil to the Serpent. Positive affirmations – say it again and again…say it this time like you mean it. Here’s some examples: Be the snake oil; I and my snake oil are one. Oil for one and one for oil. Walk out on your believing…literally…if you don’t believe in snake oil then leave…and don’t come back until you do. Do a word study of “and” while at the same time substituting the words “snake oil” in every occurrence; for example, Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven snake oil the earth.

I’m here all week folks... .....yeah that was pretty bad wasn’t it, George

Well, it’s been some 41 years since we got married by Way ordained clergy (and renewed our vows another time – at some couples advance, I think) – I remember we incorporated the covenant of salt and wrote our own vows… ...don’t know what to tell you in comparison to other non-way weddings since all I knew growing up were Roman Catholic weddings – which faded memories seem almost like some pomp and pageantry event now…but the reception was always fun…food, fun - causing havoc with my cousins, maybe a chance to see some legs when the groom took off the bride’s garter.

Raf, HEAT – the relationship between the good guys and the bad guys is so fascinating – like almost in a weird way they “need” each other or something... I don’t know…but it’s also a great action movie. Creed – yup – I mentioned earlier Rocky I, III and Creed are my favs…and to me Creed is just about as emotionally engaging as Rocky I. Groundhog Day & Quick Change – both very enjoyable Bill Murray movies; I also liked him in St. Vincent, Lost in Translation, and Moonrise Kingdom. Good Will Hunting & Dead Poets Society – I really like the serious roles of Robin Williams…a few others come to mind – What Dreams May Come, Awakenings, and The Fisher King == == == George & Human WTB glad you all mentioned Marisa Tomei - - I liked her in The Wrestler, The Big Short, The Ides of March, Slums of Beverly Hills – and of course My Cousin Vinny. ..and yeah I forgot that Anna Paquin was in The Piano – she kind of had a key role in the plot.

maybe they've already started - doomsday preppers Are doomsday preppers a cult ?

All I have to say about CF&S or any platform that gave wierwille a chance to “teach” is student beware ! I was involved with The Way International for 12 years and can honestly say (based on my personal experience as well as investigating his credentials) that wierwille was not qualified to teach about being a Christian, being a family man, about sex, or even about the Bible. I took his CF&S class when I first got involved with TWI…I remember him showing graphic pictures of couples having sex while he makes remarks along the lines of “I’ve so renewed my mind that I don’t see this as offensive” …I also remember him suggesting the original sin committed by Adam & Eve was masturbation - - I’m not kidding. Fast forward to some 10 years later – I’m in the Family Corps program – during a CF&S type class in residence, and wierwille hosts a pajama party – adults and TEENS are present. He shows a porn video of women having sex with a dog. Afterward he tends to the palpable shock in our group by again going along the same lines as he did in the original CF&S class I took years ago and also throwing in some leadership lessons too since now we’re corps – stuff like “I’ve so renewed my mind that this stuff is not offensive to me…how are you going to counsel believers if you’re shocked by something like this…” he even justified this highly offensive and sexually depraved “teaching” session by saying something like “anything done in the love of god is okay.” Gosh, he must have really “loved” us a lot. oh by the way...welcome to Grease Spot, KingTravel4 ! now aren't you glad you asked about CF&S ? well, don't just take my word for it...there's lots of other threads in About the Way forum that reveal the darker side of wierwille (not known to the general public) - you might want to do some reading. hope you stick around awhile.

yeah my mind freaked seeing on the news some folks in Puerto Rico fortunate enough to have generators stand in line for gas. what would concern me...and I've wondered about this before with city-folk like myself - is the challenge to try an maintain some decent reliable level of hygiene / sanitation...I mean no running water, no working toilets...what a mess...and on top of that I'd have to make do without Netflix, Hulu, and HBO !

watched this discussion and liked the variety of panelists and viewpoints - thought some might find this interesting to go along with this thread topic Third Rail PBS...Is violence in America's DNA ?

What if some great cosmic event knocked out all electronics – what would you do? Six cosmic events that would wipe out our planet

wow wee Chockfull ! thanks for all that...the details and your commentary are ... horrifying ! "glad" I left in '86...although that's still too much time hanging around in crazy-town.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Jeff I left in ’86 and come here to catch up on the stuff I missed – though I wouldn’t say I’ve been missing it Have a cup of cappuccino on me and check out the threads in About the Way forum

That’s my hope and prayer too - and part of why I keep sticking around Grease Spot...as I mentioned earlier - part of why I started this thread was I want to keep my story relevant to those still in.

Not finished yet…there’s a few more details to look at… DWBH doesn’t need anyone to come to his defense – he does just fine by himself…But funny you should put it that way…because I think you were looking for a fight Typically when someone says “give me a good reason” or “give me one good reason” to another they are really saying “I don’t think you have a good reason so I’m throwing down a challenge.” the old "give me one good reason" thing according to MacMillan Essentially you started the fight – and for no reason –since this was not a doctrinal debate; I think the reason you picked this particular post is because it was by DWBH…I mean, line up all the ideas and comments every poster made about their current state of beliefs on this thread – and it seems rather odd you home in on DWBH’s personal “canon” of the New Testament and try challenging that. This doesn’t appear to be a random drive-by shooting – but some personal vendetta…I dunno…I could be wrong…but that’s the way it hits me. I can go on as long as you want to keep rehashing whatever alleged slight has got you so upset – because I thrive on controversy – although I must admit dialogs with you are not very challenging – more frustrating really – in that I have to make an extra effort to wade through all the smoke and mirrors of insinuations, innuendoes, distractions, complaints of victimization, fallacies of presumption, fallacies of relevance, and personal ad hominem (like your CNN jab to me at the end of your post..…maybe I should also include your go-to tactic for intimidation – that patronizing or condescending manner – obvious in your posts to me here and elsewhere.) yeah - I have to wade through all that to figure out what you’re actually saying…well…I say I can go on as long as you – but that’s Grease Spot moderators permitting – if they don’t wind up shutting this thread down first.

I understand what you’re saying here – but – that’s not the way you were talking about in your earlier post; you said “Of course you don't. Yet, you are evidently compelled to denigrate anyone else that doesn't believe as you do, in a forum where such things are presumed to be true.” Those were your exact words “in a forum where such things (such things as what DWBH said:” I don't believe the Bible is the God-breathed Word of God. I don't believe the Bible is inerrant. I don't believe the Bible is perfect.”) are presumed to be true.” Presumed to be true by whom? Everyone who contributes in the doctrinal forum? And can you be specific where DWBH denigrated…criticized…disparaged other posters on this thread who don’t believe as he does? Have you read Raf’s posts? That’s about as different as you can get – (belief-wise anyways) from most of the posters so far. Your "presumed" statement implies that everyone that posts in the doctrinal forum - regardless of their belief system or doctrines they hold to (or reject ) – presume the Bible is the God-breathed Word of God, that it is inerrant, that it is perfect…and what you’re talking about now (defining doctrine) has no continuity or even relates or excuses what you said previously “in a forum in a forum where such things are presumed to be true.” The “presumed to be true” is a grossly mistaken assumption whereas your more recent “doctrines, subset…premises” post is talking about something totally different – what is doctrine – which I already addressed in my previous post by giving the definition of doctrine… maybe if you could understand the difference in your two posts – and review what everyone else said on this thread, consider some of the questions and suggestions I posted - you might be able to contribute something that’s relevant to this thread...just a thought anyway.

*** please note in the quote below WordWolf is replying to another post - I just wanted to point that out - so in other words, he is not objecting to any ideas in Excathedra's post that I included above...I quoted both these posts because I felt they emphasized acknowledging the duality of life. Great posts !!!! Not sure if this is off topic but - I think Skyrider started a thread on the duality of life...that’s looking at BOTH sides - a dual sided view.....I believe it’s a mentally healthy way to deal with the good and bad things that happen in life... and as far as dealing with the past - it’s not that certain good memories will cover up or make you forget the bad memories....but maybe the good memories will act as a buffer to some of the pain of the bad ones ....overshadow them ? I dunno... When I was a kid my mom’s prescription for a toothache was to put aspirin on my aching tooth and then let me type on my big sister’s typewriter....maybe the aspirin did something I don’t know...but getting to use my sister’s manual typewriter- wow wee !! I think that more than anything took my mind off the toothache....not sure if that’s how good memories work to give us some relief in times of stress, pain or heartache... Ok....maybe I just wanted to say it’s time we bring back those manual typewriters!!!! ....if anyone else agrees please feel free to call me - just pick up the other end of my tin can and string and tell me how you feel - call now one lonely operator standing by

yaaaaahhhhh !!!! that's the ticket ! thanks, Chockfull - with this post and your others - and what folks have said so far - this is great ! besides satisfying my curiosity and plotting the virulent evolution of wierwille's stuff - another reason I started this thread was so that I could better relate to those still in TWI...I know one of the purposes of Grease Spot is to tell the other side of the story - - I'm just wanting to know how to make my personal "saga" relevant to TWI folks.

TLC, being that this is not a Christian or religious forum, and since ideas like the Bible being the God-breathed word of God, or that it is inerrant, or perfect are not universally accepted here – I think you are being rather presumptuous in leveling a charge against someone for violating a non-existent standard regarding this forum. besides the fact, that in my very first post I quoted C.S. Lewis’ view of the Bible – where he said: “The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘The Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God;” And with all my comments in that first post that echo the same sentiment as C.S. Lewis’ words, and what I said to others who wanted clarification of what to post - I thought it was pretty clear that this thread was about folks posting their current views of the Bible, their journey thus far after once being involved with TWI. also I did give this thread a subtitle "confessions of a former fundamentalist" ...if one would care to look up the definition of a fundamentalist while noting that I put the word "former" in front of it - it should be evident that I (the person who started this thread ) no longer hold to a strict belief in the literal interpretation of the Bible...I even drew attention to that fact several times within my first post. …I do apologize if anyone got the wrong idea – as if we were debating what is the correct view of the Bible…but in reading all the posts so far – I think everyone got that - generally the content of their posts described a philosophical quest... and were definitely NOT a major dissertation on any Bible doctrine ...so I am mystified why you zeroed in on one particular post when all the other posts expressed some very divergent views of the Bible....I mean - I could understand it if you have me on your ignore list - which you may have, I dunno - so you didn't see the specific questions / suggestions I had laid out - but given the fact that all the other posts were definitely not lining up with the typical fundamentalist mindset, but rather were responding appropriately to my questions / suggestions - I am wondering what your intention was in picking apart one particular post. ...maybe I should also add it’s just not cool to attack another person’s beliefs on this thread – that is totally off topic! Because this thread is all about one’s personal belief system… I DID say in my first post that I did not intend to defend the Bible or my beliefs – I was expecting everyone who posted to feel the same way. also in my first post I did say to the moderators maybe I should have started this thread in the questioning faith forum. So it’s not like I was being deceptive – but maybe because it’s in doctrinal I guess some folks could drum up an issue about something…I mean look at the definition of doctrine noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church. == == == == I’m not arguing about doctrine on this thread…I’m promoting freedom of thought. maybe I should have started this thread in the Open forum…as in open to new ideas…open minded…open, free – NOT imprisoned…so addressing the moderators once again, feel free to move this to the questioning faith forum…or the open forum or leave it here – I don’t care.

By the time you were running WAP classes – what place did the PFAL class hold for newcomers? if we could jump back in time – and I was a newcomer at your fellowship (let’s say I’ve been attending your fellowship for about a month) – and I’m excited about what you’ve shared at fellowships and keep asking you if there’s a way I could know all that neat stuff like you – what would you tell me? What would be the next step for me getting more involved with The Way International? Would I have to take PFAL first? Or does WAP now serve the same purpose as what PFAL did? = = = = = = In WAP does LCM make any references to PFAL or wierwille? Does WAP cover the same topics as PFAL- like “the word of God is the will of God”, how we got the Bible, the Bible interprets itself, battle of the senses, the law of believing, speaking in tongues, etc.? In your opinion, does WAP come across as being an obvious derivative of PFAL or as something inspired by PFAL but updated for a new generation? my questions are really open to anyone - I just quoted Chockfull's part about running / teaching WAP classes, so I could focus a line of specific questions - just trying to get an idea of what was the "official authorized" route for newcomers.

anks for sharing Chockfull and Krys interesting...I did not know there was a WAP2 so how does bringing new folks into the fold work? do they take WAP first? do new "members" ever get any of the PFAL books ? Do grads ever give newbies an illustrious history lesson of the founder & first prez? sorry to ask such very simple questions...guess I'm getting more curious in my old age - of how a cult goes to phase 2 - passing the baton to the next leader and keeping the "troops" in line, and how to keep folks excited about "the word"...just want to get a better idea of what was taught & practiced after I left. ...like Chockfull sharing about the whitewashing and damage control...this makes me think - at least with WAP2, it was geared more toward being in control of the morale...again since I only know PFAL and such I can't compare the two - but from what I remember PFAL and even the Advanced Class were mainly for puffing you up with special knowledge that no other group had...whereas what I gather so far - it sounds like WAP2 was more of a corrective measure...but I dunno...I'm just grabbing at straws here and would appreciate anything else folks would like to share. once again thanks for your input

Hey Grease Spotters, I’m just curious if anyone here has taken both PFAL and WAP and wouldn’t mind sharing a brief (or long - I don’t care) analysis of what differences and similarities there are between the two. I left in ‘86 so all I know about is PFAL. ....as an aside - I’m also curious if LCM plagiarized from any sources other than what wierwille used.

Wish somebody would drain that swamp !