T-Bone

Waldo went looking for miracles... ...and ended up finding himself.

Again with those cheating paws you damn dirty human!

A marine biologist's concept of how he thinks a shark is able to move

Rocky, thanks for posting these YouTubes! I’ve got to read her book! I the second video she references a book Wild at Heart , which I read a long time ago – but what was so captivating was her retelling of how that book prodded her research mind to trace how Christianity got coopted into fractious trends. To me the big ideas in her talks are extremely fascinating – and something that has intrigued me for a long time – matter of fact, not long after I left TWI I came up with some 20 topics of wierwille doctrine to look into. One of them was a SN Teaching tape by wierwille on Romans 13 – he had taught the higher powers were the gift ministries. Got into that recently on the Craig has offshoot thread – and not intending to get into politics there or here – and even after much study and looking at legitimate scholarly works on Romans 13 – it’s still a difficult and complicated concept to wrap my mind around. I believe things like free will, marriage and government are basic social foundations instituted by God. The first one – free will – has the major role in any social setting – be it marriage, family, society, governing. What Romans 13 indicates is that we should remember who assigned us the job of governing ourselves – God! He never specified what type of government it should be. If we find any faults in the system – it goes back to the people who design it and manage it – humankind’s free will does have its share of shortcomings. I’ve come across another term – Christian Nationalism – which seems akin to Kristin Du Mez’s White Evangelicalism – and this all reminds me of some of the influences in manifest destiny . I can’t wait to read Du Mez’s book! Thanks again for sharing.

wow - and you're STILL musing over this stuff and trying to figure stuff out seriously Mike - don't you think it's time to move on? even Captain Kirk says get a life!

nope - those were YOUR words! You can't backpedal your way out of that one! you should be ashamed for representing your fellow grads in such a demeaning manner.

Be advised, you cannot pay for the class in wooden nickels.

NOPE !!! NOPE !!! NOPE !!! I specified a legitimate sociologist – that’s an expert who adheres to standards, rules and studies the development, structure, and functioning of human society. NOT some burnt-out cult-follower has-been who skews data – real and imaginary - according to his own personal Kool-Aid Litmus Test to determine if grads drank enough Kool-Aid.

If you have access to the Internet - this YouTube is just as effective:

I wish I could upvote your post 50 times!

You misinterpreted my bold red of “OT saints believed God – EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SAW the final fulfillment of God’s promises” to mean I was hysterical. What’s hysterical is that you go through linguistic and logical contortions to the confusion of wierwille-fans everywhere. NOTHING FLOPPED in their lives! There’s NOTHING for them to be ashamed of. They’re in Hebrews 11, God’s Hall of Fame for Those of Faith because of their faith despite any circumstances! Geez Louise, quit trying to cause chaos in a serious discussion! ...well I'm assuming this is a serious discussion...but look who started it. It doesn’t say that – I’ve already given a better and clearer explanation of what Hebrews 11:39 & 40 imply…back up and read my other post...go ahead I'll wait . Irrelevant…What does that have to do with the cost of PFAL Today? Holy $hit! You marveled at many grads not so aware of all the apostles dying? Were these all adults? Did they have any idea of when the Bible was written? Amazing - just amazing! I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but you must have had a lot of really, really, REALLY stupid grads in your area – I mean like backwoods stupid... I hope any of them aren't reading your posts - because it will only make them feel ashamed...man, you're starting to sound like some way corps I knew who acted like they were God's gift to the church. what would we ever do without their in-depth spiritual perception and awareness?

Yeah, I hear you on that, OldSkool! As a matter of public record on Grease Spot I hold to a similar ‘policy’ as you. One of the reasons I am that way is to ignore the can-you-top-this brag sessions and another reason is I like to refer to experiences and observations that are common to a lot of Grease Spotters and then I usually segue into Scripture and plain logic to make my case. Too bad there’s not some legitimate sociologist who would take an interest in a study of PFAL grads 1 year after taking the class, 5 years after taking the class, 10 years after taking the class, etc., and maybe even do a Data Download like Chuck Todd does on Meet the Press with different graphs and stats to show trends of increasing financial wealth, or financial setbacks, job changes, infidelities, divorces, how many had children, and at the 1, 5, and 10 year benchmark also have a category to show level of satisfaction or sense of fulfillment...it might be a real eye-opener for some PFAL-diehards.

Now it seems like you’re backpedaling and trying to reconcile the erroneous big ideas in PFAL like the law of believing and getting desired results with how everything works in the real world. Hebrews 11 addresses faith in the real world – OT saints believed God – EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SAW the final fulfillment of God’s promises: 1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. 5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith. 8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she b considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. 17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” c 19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. 21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones. 23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. 29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days. 31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. d 32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning; e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect… Hebrews 11 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ The OT saints had only shadows and a promise…NT saints have the substance and the fulfillment – Jesus Christ: 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles 2Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus… Ephesians 3 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Now there’s a thought. Instead of all the hype and hard-shell of PFAL that you can have whatever you want, what if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ? I wonder how many grads of PFAL would still be interested? I’ve heard all the pep talks on believing in TWI using Hebrews 11 – but they all ignored a few details – like faith…believing God means staying faithful to Him – it doesn’t matter how sucky your circumstances are and continue to be so indefinitely. But we do have something REALLY BIG that the OT saints didn’t have – God’s promise realized! We have Jesus Christ! How did wierwille ‘market’ Christianity? As a cure-all for every problem. PFAL will show you the keys to the more abundant life and tap into the power of God…okay – here’s a challenge if you dare to accept – try reading Romans 8 WITHOUT the PFAL-filter in your head. It talks about “present sufferings” oh my! Everything in creation – including us – is subjected to “frustration” – yikes! That ain’t good! The cosmos is in bondage to decay – I’m worn out just thinking about it! 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” j 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord… Romans 8 NIV Yeah – kind of a downer if you stay continually focused on the negatives that are a part of life. I look at my own life – and the well-being of my family we have issues – who doesn’t? I’m hanging in there anyway – because Romans 8 says even through this messy thing called life - God is orchestrating the whole enchilada (how? I dunno) so that I am being conformed to the image of His Son. I guess He knows what He’s doing – because I sure don’t!

Nope – that’s not going to cut it!!!!! It appears you’re making $hit up again. So now there’s more to account for than just the law of believing. What bull-$hit! This is one of the many reasons why PFAL sucks too. Theories based on nothing more than nonsense – so it’s magical thinking - PLUS according to you there’s OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED! The discipline of Physics overlaps…interconnects with other disciplines: Physics is one of the oldest academic disciplines and, through its inclusion of astronomy, perhaps the oldest. Over much of the past two millennia, physics, chemistry, biology, and certain branches of mathematics were a part of natural philosophy, but during the Scientific Revolution in the 17th century these natural sciences emerged as unique research endeavors in their own right. Physics intersects with many interdisciplinary areas of research, such as biophysics and quantum chemistry. From: Physics - Wikipedia once again you don’t know what you’re talking about. Troubleshooting the reason for the scarcity of miracles might take you almost as long as finishing Undertow – give or take a decade or two.

Fictitious Financial Planner Ploys Now the Philistines gathered their forces for war and assembled at Judah. A fake doctor named Goliath, who was from Ohio, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was a little over nine bottles of Drambuie stacked one on top of another. He had a beanie cap with propeller on his head and one good eye. The other peeper was a pig’s eye that he said was for enhanced awareness and perception. His lawyer / fixer and covered-cart driver went ahead of him to scope out the chicks. On either side of the cart was a sign If you see this cart a rockin’ don’t come a knockin’. Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, “Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not empties floating by? Choose a man and have him come down and fight me.” For twelve sessions of extended nonsense the Philistine repeated the same challenge. Now David tended his father’s sheep and was always packing heat since he had a concealed slingshot license. When he heard about what was going on at the Philistines’ Public Ex, he went there booms-quick to face Goliath. When Goliath saw the challenger was just a scrawny little Hebrew boy he said, “You Hebrews and your budget cuts”. David said to the Philistine, “Budget cuts my a$$!” Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone with a tiny inscription Lil’ Whoop-A$$ . He slung it and struck the Philistine in his one good eye. The blind giant had to be led away by the hand of his lawyer / fixer and covered-cart driver. The Philistines’ Public Ex was held in abeyance until further notice.

I went into The Way Corps program because I had an unspoken yearning to achieve the signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism of victor paul wierwille. * *This post interprets itself… If I did stick with the program, I very well could have accomplished that – sort of. Through the ‘miracle’ of indoctrination I would have been mimicking wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism. I would have viewed it as personal growth and development. Others might call it the wierwille-cloning process.

I agree with your opinion - guilty as charged

There are so many aspects of Grease Spot Café that are almost undefinable. I Googled the definition of "group" and one hit was this: A Group is basically an assemblage of people. It can be understood as a collection of individuals (two or more), who come together and interact with each other, so as to achieve the objectives of the organization. From: What is a Group? definition, characteristics, types and reasons for group formation - Business Jargons The stated mission of Grease Spot Café is to tell the other side of the story of The Way International. Grease Spotters come together and interact with each other to achieve that objective! Each Grease Spotter’s input represents a unique story of their experiences and personal viewpoint in The Way International. I like that it’s unfiltered and uncensored – and that there’s rules/moderators to put the kibosh on troll-tactics to keep their intended mayhem down to a minimum. The fact that Grease Spot has some folks who are pro-PFAL and/or are big wierwille fans are allowed to air their views which sometimes sparks heated discussions and/or the Socratic method is a testimony to Grease Spot being the antithesis of the deceit and control of The Way International. Three cheers for Grease Spot Cafe

that's exciting ! I always wanted to be involved in a lecture circuit - even if I'm just helping with refreshments.

“safer” - a curious word to use …does that mean I am protected from your lecturing during the game?

I'm pretty sure I'm Not Sure about anything!

My comments are no more necessary than yours. The difference is my remarks submit items for analysis and reevaluating some questionable points of a certain post. Whereas it seems to me you act like a sports commentator / umpire when you get on this kick. “There goes a swing and a miss by T-Bone. He fell for the old trolling screwball. Too bad he’s not in the same league as these other seasoned Grease Spotters I’ve pointed out.” Maybe you suppose wrong. Or maybe we both have good intentions and have different ways of accomplishing them Well that’s good – I’m never upset over your comments either… Sure. I think of that possibility all the time. But here again you’re assuming you know what desired effect I have in mind. Some folks here like to quote Proverbs 26 – don’t answer a fool in his folly – and interpret that to mean don’t respond to trolls…don’t feed the trolls…something along those lines…yeah I get the idea…but read it in context with the following verse and you’ll see it’s not a prohibition to answer a fool, but to respond properly – a few alternate translations might make this clearer: Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes… Proverbs 26:4, 5 NIV Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are. Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation… Proverbs 26: 4, 5 NLT Do not answer a fool according to his foolishness, or you will also be like him. Answer a fool as his foolishness deserves, so that he will not be wise in his own eyes… Proverbs 26: 4, 5 NASB The NASB is probably the clearest in my opinion – how I understand it – as it applies to interacting with fools, hobgoblins, trolls, and general troublemakers – and I think it goes along the lines of some of Grease Spot rules anyway – like don’t respond in name-calling – furthermore we should not get caught up in their logical fallacies and Scripture twisting. Instead, what the fool deserves to hear is a rational response and an honest explanation of Scripture to counter their screwy arguments. My takeaway from verse 5 is that we SHOULD respond appropriately. That goes counter to what you have expressed before - lecturing me – assuming I’m wanting to change someone’s mind. Proverbs 26:5 doesn’t even hint toward that goal. Matter of fact, the verse implies no one will know if the appropriate answer will change someone’s mind. It leaves us with a mystery we may never find out to our satisfaction – all it says is so that he will not be wise in his own eyes…they’ll probably never admit to that…Not my problem...I don't live to see people change their minds and agree with me. On the contrary – I love commentaries…on the Bible. Commentaries can be helpful – but I pushback when I get the feeling they’re speculating too much or appear condescending. Certain of your commentaries on threads tend to give me flashbacks of being in-residence and having the corps coordinator or assistant corps coordinator critique me in front of everybody and imply your posts should be more like WordWolf’s because he gets Mike...now that's a little embarrassing to me - I dunno maybe other folks enjoy that.

Maybe you forget that some lurkers have said they came to Grease Spot for a long time before posting. I realize Grease Spot isn’t as active as it used to be - but I assume some may never join or post anything…and I’m probably not the only seasoned Grease Spotter who enjoys reading a substantial and thoughtful post but don’t always quote them or give it a vote up - maybe that’s how some folks on twitter or Reddit find validation with re-tweets and upvotes - not that there’s anything wrong with that. I don’t mean to attack you on this - I merely wonder why you think your comments along these lines are necessary. No offense but I get the idea you’re supposed to be the unofficial critic of all things posted. Yeah - it’s cool to remind people to get back on topic or call out troll-tactics - everyone should do that… …so maybe you find yourself reflecting on whether or not certain posts are even read and further assume no replies or upvotes from newcomers or lurkers means a certain post is worthless. Grease Spot has a unique niche and serves a great purpose. It is the antithesis of the oppressive and manipulative environment of The Way International. So the free rein of intellect and feelings at Grease Spot often gets messy compared to the stifling rigidity of TWI atmosphere. Has it ever occurred to you that some of your ‘running commentaries’ on threads might be counterproductive? I mean that in the sense that it might seem to some newcomers like you’re playing the Twig coordinator wanting to control what everyone shares at Twig - making sure it’s ‘Rocky approved’ for consumption. That might make some nervous and not post anything for fear of reproof. We’re all adults here - and I’ll be the first to admit I can clown around and get off topic - but usually we all get back on track soon. While I’m at it -let me get another thing off my chest. I love you like a brother, respect you like crazy, highly value your constructive criticism and allow you to be in the small group of Grease Spotters who influence my heart…. That being said…Uh oh Please don’t feel like you have to keep reminding me one way or another that my posts are too long or you didn’t have time to read it all. While I have listened to - and will continue to listen to your feedback and every other Grease Spotter - I assure everyone my ‘literary’ goal for drafting a post is to state everything I think is necessary to accurately and honesty reflect my beliefs related to a specific thread. I’m not perfect - I usually feel I didn’t take enough time to refine and edit my thoughts down to something clear and concise - and that’s on me - because I ain’t gonna spend all freakin’ day composing a post until it’s perfect and let the rest of my day go to $hit. As my older brother said as he made a detour to off-track-betting on the way to our parents’ 50th anniversary “hey I’ve got a life too!”

“Soggy”? Boys, we need to get to the bottom of that!

Anyone can create dots - even invalid dots - imaginary dots - to rationalize screwball ideas - wierwille did that all the time! The fictional character Sgt. Schultz - who often toggled between “I see nothing” and “I know nothing” was excellent comedic relief and is an example of good-natured people who submit to oppressive propaganda - when cognitive skills are sabotaged by it , functions like observation, reason and awareness are seriously compromised. 0:04