T-Bone

Sounds like a Disney movie

A classic lose / lose situation...folks stealing nonsense and the perpetrator of the nonsense doesn’t make a dime off of it.

Perhaps wierwille’s penchant for thievery kinda shows through in his determination to barge in on BG’s class...I think wierwille outdid Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8:18,19 - Simon offered the apostles money to see if he could do what they did - but wierwille just steals the info from BG as well as others, fabricates a story of the voice of god and a Snow Job to pursue the life of a fraudulent apostle. Thought I should add that in cobbling together his own class (PFAL) wierwille may bear another similarity to Simon the Sorcerer when he included the “magic” of believing...alas the snow job continues.

I wonder how many folks would participate in a survey if you stood outside a movie theater with a sign “free Star Wars pollster”

Grace, let's just say he has credibility issues.

A very good point Skyrider ! I thought it was extremely odd that he supposedly took so much time and effort for his "research" – like conducting polls and contacting people to solicit positive feedback about PFAL – yet for some reason can’t find the time…within a 20 year span…or make the effort to read a Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille’s book…which – being about as close a source as you could get to wierwille, his wife for goodness sakes.if he was into researching about wierwille as much as he says he is, you’d think that Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille's book would have been at the top of his read and review several times list. obviously fabricating research to reinforce a delusion of reverence has a higher priority.

A follow up to my Archdiocese of Boston reference in previous post and how it relates here…for those not familiar with the scandal the Boston Globe newspaper brought to light - the Boston Globe revealed the efforts of the Boston Archdiocese to cover-up the pattern of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests in Massachusetts - - you might want to catch the movie Spotlight an intensely thrilling crime drama that portrays some of the highlights of that story…As far as the topic of this thread goes…I just don’t think anyone needs to apply a fresh coat of paint to the whited sepulchers of New Knoxville.

Well, I’m impressed…say, have you ever done any PR work for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston, concerning the widespread and systemic child sex abuse by numerous Roman Catholic priests? I recognize your style.

Cool story, WordWolf…teens versus the LAZY boy which could stand for the Little Ambition Zealous Yellowbelly, vpw.

Off topic here - your post reminded me of the little bunnies that “terrorize” our neighborhood: one dark morning as I approached a stop sign on my way to work - I saw something in the middle of the road - couldn’t make it out even with flicking on my brights - until I got close enough - it was a bunny sitting up on his hind legs...as I slowed to a stop and pulled way to the right I kept thinking be prepared to jam on the brakes if he darts to my side....but he didn’t...just sat there upright in the middle of the road like he was working a toll booth. Another time - it was mid-morning- I was walking our two dogs toward that same intersection- when to our left a bunny came running out from the side of a house and darted right across our path - about 4 feet in front of us; happened so fast the dogs didn’t have time to react in typical game-on bark-fest.... but simply jerked their heads to the right, following the action - I could see a little thought bubble above their heads with the caption “what the fvck was that !?!?” ...yeah, daring little critters they are for sure.

Some great points about self-reflection, triggering events, and the authoritarian leadership in TWI that more or less conditioned us to choose a certain course of action. I think self-reflection in TWI was hampered by a distorted mirror – the mindset I adopted from them – and it was reinforced by the whole culture of the organization…the result is being somewhat incapacitated to be honest with ourselves or have a bead on reality. If I was a failure it was due to the lack of my believing…triggering events set off a hobbled decision-making process of possible choices that were within a very restrictive framework of “how should a way-believer respond to this?” or WWWBD = what would a way-believer do? On page 26 of “Lies We Tell Ourselves: The Psychology of Self-Deception” Warren addresses this: “When we aren’t honest with ourselves about who we are and what we want, we allow other people and circumstances to determine our life course. We throw away our power. We deny our ability to choose, and we fail to live the life that would have been most fulfilling for us.” I think when you’re in TWI for a long time (I was in it for 12 years) you get used to that feeling of disillusionment with the snake oil…does that become the new normal in terms of a way-mindset? I dunno...do we just settle for accepting disappointments in life...let down again?!?! ...well, so much for that ol' reliable law of believing, huh....that's just the way it is...one of these days I'm gonna hit the way-believer's Lotto - something big that I've been believing for will come true. if you're in it for the long haul - living life for the pipe dreams from snake oil gets a whole lot harder - especially the more that sneaky suspicion grows on you - is it possible the only active ingredient in the snake oil is the placebo effect…i.e. my belief in the snake oil? …Existence becomes a drudgery of traveling along a road I did not choose, to achieve something I never desired.

yeah - actually come to think of it - the duality of our experiences pops up on a lot of posts - I know you have shown that many times in your posts - when I first wrote this response I had in mind something Skyrider posted or a thread about that - but yeah - I'm always ok with using a lot more references Grace

quote is reformatted below for an easier way to follow the points Mike: Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? T-Bone: Mike, good idea – why don’t you start a thread about that - - maybe make it a survey too…but for now I would like to comment on your post. First off, I was wondering how you came up with the number of “many, many thousands of grads are thankful…etc.” Exactly what means did you use to quantify that – or did you just pick a number off the top of your head?...Or are you merely assuming there has to be a large number of PFAL grads out there who feel like you do? == == == == == Mike: AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL? T-Bone: Again I would like to know how you have established this indisputable truth (also know as a fact) when you said “the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here…etc.” Did you conduct a poll or survey? Do you have a long list of names from your survey – I imagine it should be a long, long list with the names of many, many thousands of grads…Or are you the equivalent of a union representative – and have been designated as the spokesman for the many, many thousands of grads? If so, there should be some documentation that declares you as such. Your name listed with your official title on a website, or the official name of the group you represent… I’m sorry to be so inquisitive but I’m just going on what you’ve said in the past and the way you've conducted yourself when challenged on a point of fact or logic – so I have a hard time trusting you or believing what you say when you frequently exhibit a strong bias to laud wierwille and PFAL even in the face of damaging evidence. == == == == == == Mike: If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL. T-Bone: I’m sorry to be repetitive but as I just said above - judging by what you’ve said and done before - - you've lost credibility with me by the fact that you prefer to hold on to some imaginary greatness of wierwille and PFAL though it's contrary to reality. Now it may be just me but going on what I know of you from your posting on Grease Spot - I tend to think if there is some huge credibility gap in your mind – it might be the intellectual crevasse you’ve made to “insulate” your ideas of wierwille and PFAL that are contradicted by the facts and evidence that many, many thousands of Grease Spotters have presented here (17,822 members according to the current total on main page)... by the way, I am no expert on matters of mental health - but something that helped me out after I left TWI was some professional counseling - - so I could unravel things and deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance I had developed while in TWI...just a thought from some friendly opposition - so take it for what it's worth... I choose not to use a broad brush stroke in painting the attitudes of Grease Spotters – I would say the beliefs and attitudes expressed by folks here covers a rather broad spectrum of viewpoints; the fact that over the years many posters have expressed the whole gamut of opinions on wierwille and PFAL - - even if sometimes it's just to the point of isolating a particular incident, experience or doctrine to relate some aspect that was good about it - this is enough to show many folks are using an objective analysis – thereby disregarding the all-or-nothing rationale that many of us went by when we were in TWI. If everyone thought or felt the same way it would indicate that no one is really thinking...then that just might be group-think - and if one is honest they'll see that's not what goes on here...granted there's a lot of bad things brought up here - well...TWI was and still is a deceitful, abusive, manipulative, exploitive organization - so what do you expect? an all-or-nothing thinker will look at Grease Spot and miss the details...miss the individualities...miss the nuances...miss the particulars...miss the subtleties - and just see one big negative attitude against anything associated with PFAL, TWI or whatever... Folks have expressed they liked this or that about PFAL or some other TWI experience and I think it’s normal. Someone here had a post or thread on the duality of life – and in my opinion that truly is a healthy normal way of looking at things. Instead of all-or-nothing thinking – we can look at a teaching, a person, an experience, an incident, a life…whatever and a competent critical thinker who is always honing their objective analysis skills will continue to draw both lessons to be learned and moments to savor when reflecting on the past.

Yes and for good measure as a door stop prevention strategy- you might want to post a sign on your forehead

In my opinion this above post is the voice of reason giving a summary of an outlandish belief system. == == == == Now what I find very fascinating is the degree to which a person will go to obfuscate issues and challenge any intelligent criticism of the cornerstone of that outlandish belief system; on this thread as well as others - it has become monotonous how much Mike tries to justify wierwille's abhorrent behavior; and it's not like we're specifically criticizing PFAL or any particular way-doctrine when Mike starts launching a counterattack - it's when folks talk about the cornerstone of Mike's belief system - wierwille himself.... ...yeah, yeah I know - Mike thinks PFAL / and other TWI materials are god-breathed and that's really what all the fuss is about and why he's so upset with the critics...but what is odd is how much Mike has to go through contortions of logic and rhetoric to try and convince people that wierwille is of the same caliber of character as those who wrote the scriptures...I guess for some reason he feels the need to shore up the reputation of his favorite deluded plagiarist ....I guess he can't fathom why others don't see the greatness in wierwille's "works" - as if folks have some mental defect - so he says things like Grease Spotters suffer from intellectual inbreeding. here’s Mike responding to someone who took offense at his “intellectual inbreeding" statement: Notice the little bit of backpedaling and soft-selling – with Mike’s trying to suggest a discussion of wierwille’s gross plagiarism, licentious lifestyle or megalomaniac style of leadership should be no different than any other discussion about religion or politics throughout the world. This may take some more research – I mean…just wondering how many religions or political systems there are in the world today that are based on large-scale plagiarism, abject immorality and megalomania. == == == == Another curious thing that intrigues me is to try and figure out what motivates someone to make such an obvious and flimsy attempt to rewrite history: == == == == == and below - the attempts to rewrite history are exposed

oh my gosh ! Grace, you have summarized the essence of my belief system.

WordWolf, some great points about critical thinking skills…and always a fascinating thing to think about when it comes to asking what is the light-bulb-moment of seeing through TWI’s Christian veneer…of seeing what they have to offer in a new light…seeing it for what it really is…snake oil. We all have critical thinking skills to some degree or another depending on so many variables – but why does it take some folks longer than others to see through TWI’s bull$hit? probably has a lot to do with your length of involvement and types of experiences...For me, maybe it was a combination of youthful naiveté and my cognitive faculties slowly being recalibrated to the unique world of The Way International …as followers we learn to dismiss any imperfections, dubious behavior, or a shady way of doing things - by making allowances using TWI-metrics: oh, you’re just looking at the flesh, you need to look at the Christ in them…when you are spiritually mature you’ll better understand things like this…the more you work “the word” the more you’ll see the greatness of this… Maybe the road to that snake oil epiphany is sort of like Keanu Reeves’ character in the sci-fi action film “The Matrix” (this reference has been used at Grease Spot quite a few times – thought I’d use it here for old times’ sake ).He lives a double life – as Thomas Anderson he is a computer programmer – but he’s also a hacker that goes by the name Neo. He believes something is wrong with the world but he can’t quite put his finger on it. The fact that he is a hacker and pursues leads that may provide an answer tells me he’s already started to flex his critical thinking skills. I can relate this to how I first began questioning the status quo of TWI – in the aftermath of the patriarch paper - - I’m embarrassed to say my critical thinking skills were so calibrated for TWI-world that it took something like that maelstrom aftermath to act as an AED to my faculties. It’s a start anyway. You have to begin somewhere. There’s a point where you stand back and instead of just analyzing a particular incident or a particular doctrine and take a good long look at the whole thing…you take a brave step outside the TWI-mindset…like Neo in “The Matrix” …the turning point…the eye-opener… the epiphany…the snake-oil-reveal for Neo was when he accepted the red pill from Morpheus. When he takes the red pill, the simulated world of the matrix disintegrates and he awakes to find himself in a pod and realizes his own life’s resources have been feeding this elaborate deception. I think a lifesaver for many folks ensnared in this cult is help from the outside - Waydale, transchat and now Grease Spot are indeed lifesavers – and have helped folks recalibrate their perception of TWI.

That seems a rather vacuous statement to make about the Bible. The above statement makes it sound like God is ok with a sinful lifestyle as long as you believe God for great things to come to pass and are doing "great exploits" for him. Please provide scriptural references for that assertion. There are many passages that indicate God puts a high priority on a contrite heart - - I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to indicate that God might be more concerned about a change of heart in the sinner rather than the status of one's belief system, what one believes, how big is their believing, all the things they believed God for.etc. - for example: My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Psalm 51:17 NIV Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god. Psalm 24:3,4 NIV If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I John 1:8-10 NIV

Nice bit of "PFAL research", WordWolf – and I’d like to offer an alternate interpretation as well – The remnant left over after the job is done – which could also refer to the those who stick around TWI oblivious to the royal screwjob that’s still being done (note: "still being done" is in the present continuous tense - which agrees with the context of the situation - being present during a royal screwjob would make anyone tense)

you're welcome, Chockfull

In my opinion, if one has a tendency to overlook wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and megalomaniac style of leadership it might suggest the intellectual inbreeding between PFAL and an awestruck student…as science notes, inbreeding can produce an unusually high frequency of weaknesses, genetic disorders and autoimmune issues…since we’re speaking metaphorically - - ain’t no tellin’ what can happen. I’m doing ok, Mike ...thanks for asking...glad to hear you’re busy with work and wish you the best this holiday season and for the new year!

not sure if The Way International could make the shift, Chockfull, from what I remember when I was in TWI I Think many folks accepted that limited form of communication in most situations – whether it was a class format, fellowship teaching, one-on-one counseling…whatever. It was often a one way street - - with the flow of traffic being subliminally directed to give deference to the TWI-mindset……it wasn’t just some jargon folks used as if there was an official way-speak lexicon - - actually, I think it was more along the lines of a cunningly mandated collective consciousness…whether we realized it or not we were led to think, speak and act a certain way as TWI hierarchy set the example. As the dynamics of group-think tends to go – we follow the flow - - an artificial collective consciousness, if you will. Two-way communication was often stymied by the simple things: - Listening to a teaching tape does not allow students to ask the teacher questions. Also having students hold their questions until the end of the class is a good way to have students forget about the importance or context of their question. - Answering a question with a question avoids an exchange of information. - Pat answers are a quick, evasive, and oversimplified attempt to resolve problems...such as: just renew your mind…why don’t you do a word study of “forgiveness”…you really should take the blah blah class – it would really help you in your walk. - People were never encouraged to speak freely - i.e. say how you really feel or think about something - rather always frame your ideas and even personal issues in a positive TWI-centric format. == == == == I tend to think that the only reason TWI hierarchy has ever had an ear to the ground was so that they could have a heads-up on talk and trends that would threaten their reins of control...It was never about catering to the needs of the "customers" but about securing the needs of the hierarchy.

That’s pitiful and funny at the same time, OldSkool …so I’m thinking “a piece of clothing”…like…patches! Then I thought of the tune “Patches” by Clarence Carter…so I listened to the tune and thought – yeah good way to offset the loss to their pockets and roster – check out the key part of the song Patches: “…For, life had kick him down to the ground When he tried to get up Life would kick him back down One day Papa called me to his dyin' bed Put his hands on my shoulders And in his tears he said He said, Patches I'm dependin' on you, son To pull the family through My son, it's all left up to you…” == == == == == == == == hark - the voice of one such remnant: “It’s all up to me now…Oh the scriptural drama and urgency of it all is almost overwhelming…I will carry on with the four fifteens....say, is there a chance I can get ordained anytime soon?...Reverend Patches! Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?" here's the actual tune Patches

That’s some good wisdom, Waysider I think it’s a sign of growth…especially in developing critical thinking skills when you can reflect on ANY phase of your life to not only be able to draw out lessons learned but to savor the good experiences and relationships…you can’t redo the past – but you can certainly garner insight, inspiration, and a million things as your depth of reflection grows. Being raised a Roman Catholic, I first found enjoyment in just reading the Bible and learning biblical Greek through TWI. Probably should have left shortly after that – when my local leadership kept redirecting my attention to review PFAL material rather than pursuing any personal interests with the Bible…met some great people along the way too – including my wife – still married to her after some 41 years.

Wow Skyrider, that’s a powerful and personal post – thanks for sharing. In the last part of your post there is a very important point that cannot be emphasized enough at Grease Spot: "Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult." == == == == == yes - - - so true - - the emotional and social ties are often the strongest links that keep us attached to an exploitive organization like The Way International. When I started this thread, I went through a number of titles before deciding to go with the sarcastic “Tips on selling Snake Oil”. Another way of putting it – that might not appear so inflammatory to some folks still in TWI would be: the things you have to do to keep yourself motivated when confidence in what you promote keeps dwindling. Perhaps that’s often where the emotional and social ties also come into play. “When is the last time that you signed up someone for the class?” When I was in TWI and heard a question like that – it would often start a whole series of inner turmoil…feelings that spanned everything from self-doubt to fears that I would be considered a poor witness by others. Perhaps this is way off topic – but another thing that bothers me about pushing TWI’s classes is just the whole goofy idea that you have to make Christianity a marketable product. Churches that get into the health and wealth gospel have also latched onto this same concept….to which I say - what if all you got out of Christianity was Jesus Christ - would that be enough for you?....what if the impact to your prosperity and your health was negligible? And just as means to counter any snake-oil-selling-inclinations – how about I spiritually or religiously neutralize the “product” or whatever it is that you feel so compelled to promote to others as the greatest thing there is... If what you’re into gives you a sense of fulfillment…a sense of meaning in your life – do you really need a supervisor over you to keep you motivated to spread the word on it? Do you feel let down, unfulfilled, ineffectual if others don’t get on board with what you’re into? Do you tend to embellish, exaggerate or stretch the truth just a little when telling others about what you’re into?