T-Bone

I don’t have a definitive answer for you on either question - but I will mention a couple of contributing factors to think about. Lying: I think the problem started at the top; if you’ve ever studied Matthew 23 ( Jesus addressing the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees as a bunch of hypocrites) in order to understand the leadership style of The Way International - you’d probably notice many similarities...in retrospect, I think a major unspoken facet of indoctrination in my way corps training was how to become a topnotch hypocrite! We were to learn the fine art of lying to ourselves and others...you learn things like “anything done in the love of god is ok” and “I’ve so renewed my mind that it’s not sin to me” (I’ve heard wierwille say that on several occasions) ...basically it’s an insidious idea that one can become so spiritually mature that you can handle just about anything and so the moral commands of the Bible (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, etc.) have little bearing on your walk...and I think there’s a trickle down effect also: your general way-believer is not stupid - sure they absorb the way-doctrine taught at fellowships but also they often learn by the example of leadership; before I went in the corps - a number of folks that worked for our local branch coordinator were complaining about his dishonest business practices...what did the branch leader do ? Why, do teachings on how the adversary is always out to destroy the ministry, of course! how does he do it? One way is people murmuring against leadership...i hid that whole time of lying leadership in my heart - vowing I would not turn out that way when I went in the corps.... After going through the way corps program I’m sad to report that a lot of folks bought into that whole spiritual elitism / hypocrisy stuff...glad I left shortly after my residency - because that $hit can wear down the best of intentions and good hearts. == == == TWI’s view of The Trinity: First off I ought to tell you I am now a Trinitarian - and having come to that through a long process of study and reflection - I don’t think this forum is the best place to handle your question...however, you might want to look in the doctrinal forum of Grease Spot...you can search those topics by typing in “Trinity”... But I will say something on how TWI uses their doctrine of “Jesus Christ is not God “ as a manipulative, coercive and polarizing tool to distinguish TWI from mainstream churches - which basically paints followers of Trinitarian doctrine as idolaters - “and you certainly don’t want to be with that group , now do you ?” I’ve even heard wierwille and LCM state that many who teach the Trinity are born of the wrong seed and that to truly believe in the Trinity one has to be possessed....hmmm chapter and verse please ....yeah I’m calling utter bull$hit on all that! Personally, I’m ok with Christians no matter how they view Jesus Christ - because if he is indeed Lord, then let’s get on with the program of serving our Lord instead of damning to hell Christians who don’t believe exactly like you or I do...so my concern is more with the practical consequence of a doctrine... and one more thing - if you combine the polarizing effect of TWI’s view of Jesus along with their ultra-dispensationalism (that downgrades the importance of the Gospels and promotes an absent Christ) it makes me wonder if there is even much of anything left of Christ in their “brand” of Christianity ....nuff said

Another thing that doesn’t jibe with wierwille’s flimsy excuse for David’s behavior (saying technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king) is that Nathan confronted David on two issues - having Uriah killed as well as taking Uriah’s wife to be his own: The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. 4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.” 5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.” 7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’…II Samuel 12: 1-10 NIV

sorry - I find it hard to believe you didn’t have some great admiration for wierwille himself back then when in even some more recent threads you often defended him to the hilt in spite of all the facts and evidence to the contrary presented by Grease Spotters. In light of that - I tend to think you were pretty much incapable of separating the ideas from the author of those ideas - as evidenced by the circular logic you used on one particular recent thread: is PLAF god-breathed ?...which often went along the lines of PFAL is god-breathed because wierwille said it’s god-breathed.

it’s easy to admire someone from afar but it's often a whole other matter when you see them up close and interact with them…and get to know what they're really like...kind of like the thing that happens in an abusive relationship.

Great post ! I agree...That’s what I was trying to say...Rocky, you complete me !

Maybe your “insulated” approach is what spared you a lot of visceral damage that a cult can inflict on those who were much more involved in the organization…that’s just a guess…but I will say this, I don’t think that the many of the ideas in PFAL / way-doctrine can survive for very long when coming into contact with reality and so its continued “existence” is really dependent upon the proper management of the TWI hierarchy to keep reality at bay by any means possible…teaching people to NOT go by their five senses, that spiritual matters are not dependent on our reason, that the devil and his subordinates marshal everything against way-believers, etc…a lot of it boils down to how TWI taught folks to process any information they take in. “Growing pains” is an interesting title for this thread. I found this on growing pains: Despite the name "growing pains," there is no firm evidence that growing pains are linked to growth spurts. Instead, growing pains may simply be muscle aches due to intense childhood activities that can wear your child's muscles out. These activities include running, jumping, and climbing. Growing pains seem to be more common after a kid has a particularly full day of sports. from WEB MD I believe for some folks (like myself ) maybe the critical thinking muscles were never fully developed, laid dormant or perhaps atrophied due to staying too long in TWI. After 12 years of involvement, leaving and then trying to figure out what happened to me was a very slow process; but finding Grease Spot was where I experienced the most growing pains…maybe an accelerated process but I’m in charge of the throttle…I started giving those critical thinking muscles a very strenuous workout. But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.

sounds interesting i found it on Amazon and put it on my wish list "The Real Devil" on Amazon thanks for the link, Waysider

Great post, Skyrider- and I love that Don’t Worry post - and I think you’ve said it before - I wish/hope Don’t Worry writes a book someday !

Just curious - did you learn that from wierwille - aka the plagiarist, sexual predator, narcissist, pathological liar ? and since we’re talking about the big 6 - revelation and power manifestations - can you give some specific incidents from witnessing and in fellowships. fyi: another point on wierwille’s self-referencing and the big 6 - revelation and power manifestations - like all his other claims of greatness - these stories of how God taught him revelation are just that - fabricated stories. Were there any eye-witnesses to any of wierwille’s stories of operating the big 6?

even more Yeah I remember that alphabet gimmick too…I use to practice tongues inspired by the letters on license plates LOL …hey, wierwille mentioned in an Advanced class (I think... or was it in PFAL – so long ago – don’t remember…don’t care LOL) how he’d practice getting revelation by going to the race track – God helping him pick the winners – or practicing discerning of spirits – it was something like having God show him if a person had a white heart or black heart – then he’d walk up to them and ask them if they were a Christian or not – and their answer would confirm what God showed him…amazing that I believed all his goofy shtick…now I think why didn’t he encourage us to practice stuff like that too? “yeah kids, get out there and practice receiving revelation and while you’re at it – try out the power manifestations…start out small, maybe find a dead bug or dead bird and raise it from the dead.” why? I'll tell you why (just practicing my way corps public speaking techniques ) the revelation and power manifestations are kinda difficult to fake!

An odd thing nowadays- when I read in the gospels about the sin against the Holy Spirit (see below ) and then I recall how frequently wierwille would label dissenters and even those who believed in the Trinity as possessed....I’m not saying what wierwille did relates to the passage below - - though this is one subject that does fascinate me. ..funny, in PFAL wierwille asks what is the greatest sin one can commit - and he says it’s to break one of the two great commandments to love God and neighbor...however this sin in Mark 3 seems to have graver consequences for all eternity over what it seems to me has something to do with attributing to the devil the work of the Holy Spirit.... this is an awfully treacherous subject ...maybe more appropriate in doctrinal....but wierwille’s teaching on the unforgivable sin - being born again of the wrong seed - I mean, how goofy and unbiblical is that? I don’t think wierwille would have recognized a work of the Holy Spirit if it hit him over the head with a ball bat...a known plagiarist, sexual predator, narcissist, etc. who was able to spot when the devil was working in others...yeah right. 22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” 23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” 30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.” ...Mark 3: 22-30 NIV

In light of what you and certain other folks have said, I don’t think self-referential is necessarily a bad thing - if the person is honest and their point is valid - i.e. they truly are a credible source, in other words they have earned the right to be a “reference point” for something... Jesus showed himself to be the son of God in words, deeds, signs, miracles, and wonders - and as Luke who wrote one of the gospels and probably Acts said Jesus even showed himself alive after his crucifixion by many infallible proofs...Jesus’ self-references are critical to the faith: I and my Father are one...I am the way, the truth, and the life, etc....so I think he earned the right to be THE reference point for his followers - I mean, a major religion bears his name for Christ’s sake (Christianity). Paul the apostle, occasionally referenced his own experiences and knowledge (his conversion on the road to Damascus, being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, according to the law a Pharisee - things that would have been excellent legitimate credentials in his culture - yet he considered it all dung compared to the surpassing knowledge of actually knowing Christ - Philippians 3)...So the sense I get from reading his epistles is that his self-references were more along the lines of a self-conscious awareness of the process of change ...of how his life and knowledge of the scriptures were being re-oriented to a new reference point - Christ! John could be considered self-referencing when he said that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (I John 1:3 )... this is speaking from their genuine experiences of being around Jesus Christ... ...so all the above were NOT like wierwille and company relying on phony credentials, fabricated stories of phenomena, plagiarized material and the coercive power of a cult.

Movies I wish they would make: I am sick and tired of all the sales calls I get on my cell phone…now, you know those horror movies where the dead person comes back to avenge their own death…I’d like to see them make a horror movie about a guy who died from a stroke - while trying to call 911 but kept getting sales calls preventing him from dialing out; when he comes back from the dead he’s now able to home in on the source of any sales call, and through otherworldly powers of the dead like ectoplasmic gastroenteritis, spray the caller (be it human or machine) with some pretty nasty creepy crud…maybe call the film “Ghost in the Cell”. need to work out a few details: will need keep his cell number active after he's passed away...or could be a ghost for hire - I would pay him to haunt my cell phone but only unleash him if I get a sales call....wonder if roaming charges would apply...

uh oh

yup Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In light of the context - I think wierwille’s behavior showed he had more in common with the thieves, robbers, hired hands and wolves than with the good shepherd Jesus Christ! wierwille’s use of John 10:10 was actually the bait used for cult entrapment. “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep....John 10:1-13 NIV I got involved in TWI in ‘74 in NY and remember a flyer someone made for handing out when you witnessed - one particular detail of that flyer I still can vividly recall - in bold letters it said “you can have whatever you want”. ...thinking of when LCM would rant about the abundant life of John 10:10 was primarily spiritual to our corps I wish I had the ballz to jump up and say “that’s not what wierwille said in PFAL !” There’d probably be a long silence ...then I would mutter “uhm ...do I still have to do bless patrol tonight or do you want me to pack up and leave right now?” This would be included as DVD bonus features alternate ending of my film “Escape from Rome City”...which has me leaving during my corps assignment after figuring out PFAL and TWI had NOTHING to do with material or spiritual abundance! It was and still is a big scam - - a royal ripoff !

i say they ought to roll out the big gun

Welcome to Grease Spot, Tom I left in ’86 so I don’t think I can help you find the status of your friends…but stick around perhaps others could…I think you’re very fortunate to have never been a member of The Way International - - if you check out some threads while you’re visiting here you’ll see why I say that. I’m just curious - - after taking PFAL and attending Twig fellowships with your WOW friends, did you stop going to Twig when their WOW assignment was finished? (WOW assignments were for one year…I was a WOW in ’75 -’76 and years later went into the way corps program) Anyway, thanks for sharing and I do hope to hear more from you…in the meantime enjoy a cup of Joe from a coffee shop in Kentucky

40 years or more of "service"…my mind goes “yikes that’s a lot to unravel!”…depending on length and level of involvement one’s life could become that much more intertwined with a cult… there’s that much more to unravel…it’s hard to remain totally objective because there’s so many ways one is connected to a cult…socially…emotionally…something that provided “status”…in my humble opinion it takes a lot of humility and honesty to truly investigate and unravel the “mysteries” of a cult’s impact on my life…because one of the suspects in this mystery is …. me… ...and it’s often uncomfortable and disheartening to acknowledge the times I suspended critical thinking because of some silly things – like believing wierwille actually heard from God…or being guilt-driven, thinking a doubt or question meant I was really questioning God and not the ministry or wierwille. I like your Jason Bourne reference in the other post “Until you unravel the indoctrination all the way BACK TO ITS SOURCE.......you will not understand the depth of it. (i.e. Jason Bourne)”…and that got me thinking of the early part of the first Bourne film – suffering from amnesia, how Jason would wonder about how he acquired certain skills and knowledge… corps, if you really want to unravel cult indoctrination you might want to consider the fact that the fine art of self-delusion, hypocrisy, and selling bull$hit to others were taught by the master, himself…wierwille…oh maybe you didn't realize all that while you were jotting down every word he said as if it was revelation...or trying to mimic his style of being so confident...or admiring the way he bragged about being so spiritual and in touch with God that he could do whatever and it would not be sin... funny isn't it? wierwille made such a big deal in PFAL about the Bible means what it says and says what it means...then by the time you go through the way corps program you actually find out how pliable the Bible was in wierwille's thought process...the Bible means whatever wierwille says it means. and you just thought he was teaching you how to acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness…you might want to consider Matthew 15 where Jesus spoke of the Pharisees as blind leaders of the blind - they both fall into a pit...so if you're wondering how you got all tangled up in a big convoluted mess - just remember who led the way - wierwille. …the way corps was like Bourne’s Treadstone – only it was a black ops program turned on its own participants – a covert operation that even the participants were not aware of - to sabotage critical thinking…to subvert one’s interests, allegiances, and faith…to make us subservient to upper leadership.

i appreciate that, Mike ! love & peace T-Bone

I agree...and I wanted to add - this thesis is so preposterous... so utterly laughable that I think even wierwille would have said so himself... ..even though he was delusional, a megalomaniac, a plagiarist, a sexual predator, etc. he had enough smarts as any good con man that he usually attempted to gain validation by getting a degree-mill “doctor” title, exaggerating and fabricating his achievements in ministering, research and phenomena... In the corps program I never got the idea that PFAL was to take the place of or supersede the Bible...rather it (PFAL) was touted as the only interpretive tool that guaranteed you would rightly divide the word of god....the essence of PFAL - like its “creator” wierwille is parasitic - and as such has very little intrinsic value - because it leeches off whatever is genuine - and percolating it all into a magnificent platform for a cult-leader... that’s why I don’t think the frame of thought in wierwille’s works was designed to really work on its own...it needed a driver who knew where he was going....next stop cult-world ! it was a platform for a charlatan...a good con man does not stick a gun to your head to rob you under threat to your life...rather a good con man wins your confidence - and you willingly hand over your money...for folks like me - getting involved when I was young and naive - not knowing much of what gives credibility or validity in academics or biblical research - I was a good candidate to get suckered in by wierwille’s pretenses.

Thanks to all for elaborating on the error in PFAL concerning to receive anything from God / having your needs and wants parallel; besides that – there’s another one on that to-receive-anything-from-God-list-of-requirements that I think is similar to it – – to receive anything from God you must know what is available…according to the scriptures God is omnipotent and therefore is not bound by our limitations of knowledge or abilities: Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us… Eph. 3:20 NIV Ya know wierwille’s spiel makes me think of the line in America’s song “Tin Man”…Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didn’t already have… I think a lot of PFAL is just a bunch of hooky-pook rigmarole to put folks under wierwille’s thumb…screw that ! if you’re a Christian declare your allegiance to Jesus Christ, assert your independence from wierwille’s cult and enjoy the freedom and peace our Lord provides…I’m talking to anyone still stuck in wierwille’s doctrine.

oh my gosh ! i had that Small Faces album Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake in the original novelty metal packaging...sigh - lost my album collection when my folks' basement was flooded while i was out WOW.

Barbara Tuchman in “The Guns of August” (book about the beginning of WWI) made a thought-provoking statement about certain German high-command leaders observing how the conflict unfolded - started to consider alternative strategies as their confidence waned in the original battle plan: “But once divinity of doctrine has been questioned there is no return to perfect faith.” (Page 243) That resonated with me when I thought of the starting point in my journey away from fundamentalism...seeing how ineffective so much of Way-doctrine was in dealing with every day life and practical matters.

Another fascinating subject...and is food for thought on the long term effect of holding in such high regard someone like wierwille who was clearly a textbook case of Delusional disorder